The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

I think Ukraine have a problem in different mentalities, which come through historical division of Ukraine. Eastern part was mostly part of Imperial Russia, while western part was mostly part of Kingdom of Poland or Habsburg monarchy. After Orange revolution, this division in Ukraine become deeper, so I wouldn't be surprised, if Ukraine will be separated in two independent states, where western part will go into EU integration or with Poland and eastern part will be more connected with Russia and Belarus. Don't forget, that Poland still have aspirations to reach Black Sea shore, as they have in mid age Poland.

Nationalistic crap inbound -> It was Lithuania that have spanned to Black Sea not Poland. 
But I digress. 
If it happens and Ukraine splits into two (I doubt anyone wants that) then EUkrainians will have to put their EU ambitions to the side for years to come.

It's bizarre that Western Ukrainians actually believe the EU is paradise, while countless citizens in Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Italy are protesting over the EU troika economic policies 24/7/365. Also here's a interesting tid bit about Vitali Clitorishko...apparently he has a past history of steroid abuse, how lovely:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/boxing/2389404/Boxing-Klitschko-admits-steroid-abuse.html

Don't forget, grand Duchy of Lithuania and Kingdom of Poland were an union state. Western Ukraine with Lviv or Lwow in polish was also part of pre-WW2 Poland. And western Belarus too.

Speaking for western Ukrainians  I've always wondered why they only call  Russians "occupiers" and hate only them when for most of the time it was occupied and ravaged by Poland or hungary. In the late 1930s Ukrainian nationalists rebelled in the Carpathian Ukrainian territories and were brutally crushed by the fascist Hungarian and slovakian regimes yet today's Ukrainian nationalist never mention this fact and as I said only portray Russians as having "occupied" Ukraine.  

To medo:
Thank you for posting the republic of Lithuania map, but it's a little inaccurate, western strip at the Baltic sea should be ours too   

magnumcromagnon wrote:It's bizarre that Western Ukrainians actually believe the EU is paradise, while countless citizens in Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Italy are protesting over the EU troika economic policies 24/7/365. Also here's a interesting tid bit about Vitali Clitorishko...apparently he has a past history of steroid abuse, how lovely:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/boxing/2389404/Boxing-Klitschko-admits-steroid-abuse.html

Do You think radicals care about EU? They would be the first ones screaming that EU is the new devil. It's not pro EU riot, it's anti Yanukovitch riot. Simple as that.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Speaking for western Ukrainians  I've always wondered why they only call  Russians "occupiers" and hate only them when for most of the time it was occupied and ravaged by Poland or hungary. In the late 1930s Ukrainian nationalists rebelled in the Carpathian Ukrainian territories and were brutally crushed by the fascist Hungarian and slovakian regimes yet today's Ukrainian nationalist never mention this fact and as I said only portray Russians as having "occupied" Ukraine.  

Mate there are plenty of western Ukrainians who hate Polish and call them occupiers as well. Polish are not so keen with Ukrainians too.  I've spent some summers in Ukraine years ago and I doubt that anything changed.

medo wrote:Don't forget, grand Duchy of Lithuania and Kingdom of Poland were an union state. Western Ukraine with Lviv or Lwow in polish was also part of pre-WW2 Poland. And western Belarus too.

Looks like the soviet's acquisition of territories in 1939 to BSSR and UkrSSR were fair after all. So much for the "evil commies genocided eastern Poland" rhetoric  

Ooh, for the love of....

US ‘Will Stand With the People of Ukraine’ – Kerry
Ria Novosti

The man should have just come out and said "yes,we are responsible for the current unrest in Ukraine".   

I mean WTF, are majority of the people in Ukraine ignorant enough to actually not realize that this so called "uprising" is nothing more than flipin sham.  

Come on there not even trying to hide it, Yushchenko even tried to bring Ukraine into NATO FFS, we all know where this is going why haven't they figured it out yet.  

AlfaT8 wrote:Ooh, for the love of....

US ‘Will Stand With the People of Ukraine’ – Kerry
Ria Novosti

The man should have just come out and said "yes,we are responsible for the current unrest in Ukraine".   

I mean WTF, are majority of the people in Ukraine ignorant enough to actually not realize that this so called "uprising" is nothing more than flipin sham.  

Come on there not even trying to hide it, Yushchenko even tried to bring Ukraine into NATO FFS, we all know where this is going why haven't they figured it out yet.  

Ah, come on, why not let them? I mean, this US policy actually greatly served Russian interests with it's Syrian fiasco    So, if Americans want to repeat the same mistake in UA, why any "not-western" force should stop them?   

Good point. They are so incompetent that they self-destruct actually   

Hannibal Barca wrote:Good point. They are so incompetent that they self-destruct actually   

Who? Americans or protesters?   



On another note, it seems that Kiev police are resupplying:

"Citing a leaked document, EuroMaidan PR -- the official public relations service of the pro-democracy EuroMaidan movement -- said the Interior Ministry is seeking more ammunition and supplies in its bid to quell demonstrations that have entered their 66th day on Jan. 25. They say the request came from Lt. Gen. Stanislav Shuliak wrote a letter, with a list of needs including:

1. 9 mm gun ammunition - 4,000,000;

2. 14.5 mm blanks - 150,000;

3. 40 mm charges VOG - 25 - 100,000;

4. Tents - 350 ;

5. Field kitchens - 150;

6. Thermoses - 1,050. -- Brian Bonner"




RIP....
"Police officer reported killed; National Resistance Headquarters denies involvement

5 a.m., Jan. 25 -- From Ukrainska Pravda: The body of a 27-year-old police officer with a gunshot wound to the head has been found in Kyiv's Holosivisky District the evening of Jan. 24. The press service of the Interior Ministry said guards working at a construction site found the body. The men reportedly heard shots and ran in the direction from where they came. Witnesses said two strangers fled the scene. The ministry says the officer was going home and unarmed, but lived in a hostel where riot police officers were staying. The ministry said that it had received notice of armed provocations earlier. A link to the Interior Ministry's statement is here.

The following denial was issued through the opposition Batkivshchyna Party denying involvement in the killing as well as reported assault and kidnapping of three other officers:

"The Headquarters of the National Resistance expressed condolences to the family of the deceased sergeant from the Holosivivsky District police department. It is a tragedy that must be investigated promptly and professionally. Murder can not be justified." The EuroMaidan statement, however, blames President Viktor Yanukovych's administration for not preventing this and deaths of EuroMaidan activists on Jan. 22 because of "the inability of the authorities to hear their own people, common sense and do what is necessary to resolve the acute crisis." It also asks police to "refrain from provoking situations with false and dangerous news," including the report on three officers being attacked and injured in Independence Square. It also casts doubt on the reported murder of the police officer.-- Brian Bonner"




People are getting angry...
"More than 10,000 people in Lviv attend funeral on Jan. 24 of slain activist

5:51 a.m., Jan. 25 -- Some 10,000 Ukrainians took part in the funeral ceremony of slain protester Yuri Verbytsky on Jan. 24. Verbytsky was abducted on Jan. 21 and his beaten body was found on Jan. 23 in a forest near Boryspil south of Kyiv on Jan. 23. Verbytsky and fellow activist Ihor Lutsenko were abducted by a group of 10 men in a Kyiv hospital where Verbytsky was seeking treatment for injuries. Lutsenko was also beaten and taken outside of Kyiv, but survived the attack. Authorities are investigating after initially refuting that the men were abducted. -- Brian Bonner"




Looks like the police used lethal bullets against protesters   

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/report-lethal-car-stopper-ammunition-used-against-protesters-during-hrushevskoho-street-clashes-335579.html

While Ukrainian cops show good restrain, Berkut makes the headlines and makes Russian OMON look like Swiss guard. Even so much "hated" OMON doesn't do crap like this and is more professional than those Berkut idiots. No wonder radicals have support from rest of protesters.











And yeah, lethal bullets are old news. They seem to be using anti-vehicle bullets for some time. Maybe it has lower charge, but this shit is still deadly. 

Hope it will end soon. Ukraine as a country needs to get it's shit sorted or split in to couple entities and end their crappy revolutions.

Attempting to whip up a coup is basically an act of war. And that is what the US, together with selected low lifes from the EU are attempting.
Bearing in mind that in years past, America actually set up Al Qaeda to ruin the Soviet Union, I think its time Russia stood up to the World's number one playground bully. Democrcts, let alone Republicans are openly saying they will do all that they can to prevent the Eurasian Union growing.

Imagine if Russia started funding Black Power/Muslim Brotherhood groups and drug cartels, Mexican separatists/ paramilitary style groups in the US, and then defendned their action in the international media? Or if Russia started to destablise NAFTA.

Clearly the two are NOT partners in the war on terror. Because America conducts a war OF terror.

The Ukrainian neo Nazis have NO right to separatism because they were guilty of MASS ethnic cleansing during the Great Patritoic War (and before!). The whole of the Ukraine should remain a Russian sphere of influence. Countries can't be dominated by mobs of Nazi scum. The Ukraine's borders are set, and they include the West, and the Carpathians. If the Nazis don't like it, fine  - they can move to Poland or Germany. Too many Russian leaning Ukrainians have been forced out. And ofcourse many died at the hands Ukrainian Nazis in the past.

These people will only respect force. It is like reasoning with serial killers. Because basically, that is what their "heroes" were.

The other problem is that the western press is trying to deceive its citizens on a massive scale.
It is sometimes portraying it as "evil Russia vs the good guys of the EU and the US".
Ofcourse that is utter nonsense, and the British press is often reluctant to spin it as the ridiculous Washinton (one!) party line.

I've spoken to a few Ukrainians, and they know full well that Greece, Italy, Spain and plenty of places are having MUCH bigger protests on the fact that they ARE in the EU. AND having their lives ruined because of that fact.

There are Ukrainians protesting because they are in poverty, because politicans are self serving. And they have been starved of investment and jobs from various places  The judiciary and much else are a mess. They've made it clear they are NOT for Europe, and consider themselves to be friends/partners of Russia. So they are caught in a dillemna - having to support a system because they do not want the extremist Nazi idiots. Atleast Yanukovich is prepared to stand up to the extremist mobs. They want the extremist threat gone,so that can hope to have prosperity. Unfortunately, their voices are lost in the West v Russia rhetoric.

Ironically, Russia too wants close relations with the EU. But that should not mean being "the EU's bitch". Unfortunately, the West has caused shit in the Ukraine, stoked fires and fermented unrest. THis makes it a concern for Russia to invest in sensitive areas like technology and miltary etc, and also in other areas. I think Russia can make the Ukraine a successful and prosperous country in time. But I dont think the EU wants or even needs another "redeveloping state". Lets hope the vandals from Washington, and sometimes Brussels learn to keep their big noses out. All they are exporting is terror, poverty and hardship.

It's not pro EU riot like someone in the west wants to depict it. Now Yanukovitch is stepping down and we will see how things will go after that. I hope they will politically decentralize their country.

Regular wrote:It's not pro EU riot like someone in the west wants to depict it. Now Yanukovitch is stepping down and we will see how things will go after that. I hope they will politically decentralize their country.

He's stepping down, i check the BBC, RT and Novosti, there is no mention of him stepping down, just offering high gov. positions to the opposition or should i say, the so called "opposition".

UPDATE: So called "opposition" rejects gov. offer, WHAT A F#@&ING SHOCK!!   

The danger of decentralising the Ukraine, is that the far right, far west lunatics will get more power.

The West Ukraine is still Ukrainian, and the Ukraine is still overall a Russia/East Slavic leaning country, and therefore a natural partner/brother of Russia, Belarus etc.

If the Polish speakers/far right Neo Nazis don't like it, they can always leave for Poland etc. After all, the Russians/Russian leaners in the West of the Ukraine were forced out, or murdered. 

How the hell do scum from a Neo Nazi party get into govt? Answer by violence, murder and treasonous behaviour. They dont deserve govt positions, they deserve massive jail sentences.

Sorry, I was wrong, sensationalist media got me there.
Opposition rejected his offers.

If the Polish speakers/far right Neo Nazis don't like it, they can always leave for Poland etc. After all, the Russians/Russian leaners in the West of the Ukraine were forced out, or murdered.

Polish speakers? Are we talking about same riot? When did Russians and leaners(sounds rather dirty term) where expelled or murdered? Western Ukrainians usually tell that it was Russians who expelled them from the east. When in fact no such thing happened to both of them.

In Bulgaria the clueless individuals who support the actions of the Ukrainian far right neonazi parties(and there is a huge amount of them) and activists are called "ultrademocrats" and "enlightened". Looks like these word's meanings got seriously mangled at some point in our country(and most of eastern Europe)  

In my country people support rioters because... they rose against government. We have no such luxury to riot against our government even if they are complete incompetent tools. To be honest rioting is idiotic, be it Ukrainians now or Russians in Talin couple years ago.

Except intallin everyone lost their shit and started blabbering about "violent salvage soviet subhumans" but now they're fawning at the Ukraine and labeling them "democratic enlightened people's anger for civilization and justice"

Regular wrote:Sorry, I was wrong, sensationalist media got me there.
Opposition rejected his offers.

If the Polish speakers/far right Neo Nazis don't like it, they can always leave for Poland etc. After all, the Russians/Russian leaners in the West of the Ukraine were forced out, or murdered.

Polish speakers? Are we talking about same riot? When did Russians and leaners(sounds rather dirty term) where expelled or murdered? Western Ukrainians usually tell that it was Russians who expelled them from the east. When in fact no such thing happened to both of them.

Well in England, its portrayed as "poor Ukrainians oppressed by evil foreign, corrupt puppet of Moscow". 

I meant that some of the most vociferous anti-Russians are actually Polish speakers in the Ukraine. I also read an English news article about so called "progressive Europhile Ukrainians who want to leave the orbit of Russia". The article actually admitted that these people didn't actually give a shit about the Ukraine and just wanted to join the EU... and then leave.... for Poland!

The 20th century had many atrocities against Russians, by Ukrainians. My family left  Kiev and other parts of the Ukraine and talked of many horrible experiences from West Ukrainians - they were Russians, from the Ukraine..

There was also the Nazi invasion where W Ukrainians sided with the Nazis and murdered many Russians in the Ukraine and caused many others to flee to other places. Likewise Jewish Ukrainians (their term, not mine) who identified with either Russian leaning or the USSR had many terrible experiences from the Ukrainian nationalists.

FInally post Communism, I know a lot of recent emigrants from the Ukraine who considered themsleves RUssian, not Ukrainian. They told me that they left because they felt the Ukrainian nationalism was getting way too much.

My point is that ethnic cleansing, murder and persecution/harrassment of Russians or those who lean towards Moscow must invalidate any claims of the Ukrainian nationalists.

I think Putin was absolutely right to call these events modern day "pogroms".

Here's pictures of John McInsane and Vitali Clitorishko standing proudly next to noted neo-nazi/neo-fascist Oleh Tyahnybok of the neo-nazi Svoboda Party:





http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12







More information on Ukraine's resident neo-nazi:

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/the-jerusalem-post-wiesenthal-ranks-svoboda-party-members-among-top-10-anti-semites-israel-haters-318246.html

http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests-right-sector-riot-police