Home
Latest images
Register
Log inALAMO wrote:A functionally nonexistent air defense, worth adding.
It's not supposed to operate outside AD cover provided by other (mostly land based) assets
+67
caveat emptor
Podlodka77
Krepost
Lennox
lancelot
marcellogo
ALAMO
The-thing-next-door
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E
Arrow
LMFS
mnztr
jhelb
Rodion_Romanovic
william.boutros
Admin
dino00
marat
miroslav
walle83
Hole
Isos
Mindstorm
GunshipDemocracy
miketheterrible
verkhoturye51
Luq man
T-47
ult
AyalaBotto
hoom
OminousSpudd
Ned86
SeigSoloyvov
franco
calripson
KiloGolf
archangelski
JohninMK
Project Canada
chicken
Cucumber Khan
Big_Gazza
max steel
PapaDragon
Honesroc
KomissarBojanchev
Cyberspec
sepheronx
Werewolf
xeno
redgiacomo
Mike E
navyfield
Dima
GarryB
magnumcromagnon
AlfaT8
partizan
Viktor
zg18
George1
flamming_python
TheArmenian
runaway
medo
TR1
71 posters
Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship
PapaDragon- Posts : 13463
Points : 13503
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
It's not supposed to operate outside AD cover provided by other (mostly land based) assets
ALAMO- Posts : 7464
Points : 7554
Join date : 2014-11-25
The European AD bud.
GarryB- Posts : 40489
Points : 40989
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Karakurt on the opposite offers really needed capabilities with ocean going ability, nice air defence systems and radars. Buyan is just a floating barge for UKSK used in a closed sea.
Buyan performs the roles of old anti ship missile armed corvettes and torpedo boats combined... one UKSK launcher could hold Onyx or Zircon or Ovtet or a range of other missile types, and can perform tasks in peacetime of a frigate for patrol and support.
Krepost- Posts : 781
Points : 783
Join date : 2021-12-07
Krepost wrote:Grayvoron, Ingushetia and Orekhovo-Zuevo at Sevastopol (early December)
Same place (Sevastopol) a week later. It has snowed in Crimea.
GRAYVORON has left.
The other two are still there.
BORA is also there:
GarryB, franco, PapaDragon, GunshipDemocracy and zardof like this post
franco
franco- Posts : 7046
Points : 7072
Join date : 2010-08-18
Had read earlier that the repairs were to be complete and the Bora was to return to service by the years end. Perhaps this has happened already 
Krepost- Posts : 781
Points : 783
Join date : 2021-12-07
franco wrote:Had read earlier that the repairs were to be complete and the Bora was to return to service by the years end. Perhaps this has happened already
I am reading the Bort number as 615 (I think) so it must be the BORA.
Unless I am reading it wrong and it is 616 which is the Bort number of SAMUM.
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E- Posts : 737
Points : 753
Join date : 2016-01-20
Would not be 6 ships, of which 4 built in Iran, with PanzirM not something for Iran and the Persichen Golf?
franco- Posts : 7046
Points : 7072
Join date : 2010-08-18
The way to the water: RTO "Naro-Fominsk" will be sent to the Baltic
The ship will join the Navy before the end of the year
The Baltic Fleet is waiting for a missile boost. By the end of the year, it will include the newest small rocket ship (MRK) "Naro-Fominsk" of project 21631 "Buyan-M". In his arsenal - cruise missiles "Caliber" and supersonic "Onyx". The ship will be launched in the first half of the year, after which its testing will begin. The RTO crew has already been formed and a base in Baltiysk has been prepared. Despite their small size, the Buyans can be called one of the most dangerous in the Baltic: they are capable of hitting ships and ground targets at a distance of thousands of kilometers. Experts warn that the military-political confrontation between Russia and NATO in the Baltic region will not end soon, and the strengthening of the Navy will become an additional deterrent.
The Baltic is waiting
As sources in the military department told Izvestia, a decision has already been made to include the new Naro-Fominsk RTO in the Baltic Fleet. Options for transferring the ship to the Black Sea Fleet or the Caspian Flotilla were discussed, but in the end the choice was made in favor of the Baltic Fleet. A crew has already been formed for the new ship, and all the necessary infrastructure has been prepared for it at the naval base in Baltiysk - in particular, a berthing area has been built and equipped.
According to sources, while the ship is at the shipyard in Zelenodolsk and will be launched in the first half of the year. Usually the ships are handed over to the Navy on the eve of the new year, but the Naro-Fominsk may be an exception. It is expected that it will be handed over to the fleet ahead of schedule - this fall. The technology for manufacturing RTOs of project 21631 has been worked out, and there are no visible reasons for the delay in the construction of Naro-Fominsk.
Today, the Navy has nine Buyanov-Ms, which are part of the Baltic and Black Sea Fleets and the Caspian Flotilla. Three more Project 21631 ships are being built under an additional contract. "Naro-Fominsk" became the second RTO laid down under this agreement between the Ministry of Defense and JSC Zelenodolsk Plant named after A.M. Gorky". According to Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov, the value of the contract is 27 billion rubles.
NATO countries are now building up their forces in the Baltic region, and they are not going to leave from there, Inna Vetrenko, head of the department of management and social technologies at the North-Western Institute of the RANEPA, explained to Izvestia.
“ There has been a tense situation there in recent years,” she reminded. - In the context of the escalation of the confrontation between Russia and the United States and NATO countries, it will not become calmer there. The region is considered to be our weak point and strong pressure is exerted in this area. First of all, this applies to the Kaliningrad region . Politicians from a number of EU countries say that it allegedly does not rightfully belong to Russia. Now the situation is only getting worse. Russia needs to increase its military forces there, and the appearance of new ships will not be superfluous.
RTOs are perfect for operations in coastal seas - the Baltic Sea is one of them, military expert Dmitry Boltenkov told Izvestia.
“Buyan-M is a universal platform with eight launchers for cruise missiles,” he specified. - After reloading, the salvo can be repeated. "Buyans" capable of striking both sea and land targets. In the event of an aggravation of the situation, these ships will have to disperse, and during the outbreak of hostilities they will deliver ultra-precise strikes against important targets, including those deep in enemy territory. These may be military, naval bases, airfields or other facilities. Thus, Buyany-M should become an additional deterrent.
The Baltic Fleet now includes two RTOs of this project - Zeleny Dol and Serpukhov. Both ships have proven themselves well, recalled Dmitry Boltenkov.
Initially, the Buyans-M were developed for the protection and protection of the coastal marine zone, as well as for operations on large rivers and lakes. But the launches of Caliber from the waters of the Caspian and Mediterranean seas against terrorist targets in Syria have demonstrated their ability to deliver ultra-precise missile strikes at a distance of about 1.5 thousand km.
The first rocket launches of Buyanov-M in the fall of 2015 became a worldwide sensation. For the Western media, the shock capabilities of the "kids" came as a surprise.
In 2016, Buyany-M again surprised the Western "partners". The journey around Europe from the Baltic to the Mediterranean Sea of two Buyanov-Ms - Serpukhov and Zeleny Dol - made a lot of noise. Representatives of the European media did not expect to see carriers of long-range Caliber cruise missiles off their coasts.
These ships were built using modern technologies. "Kids" received futuristic broken contours that make them hardly noticeable to radar stations. Their small size allows them to hide in sea skerries, in channels and along the banks of rivers and lakes, as well as to covertly approach enemy ships and coasts.
"Buyany-M" carry on board supersonic anti-ship missiles "Onyx" with a warhead weighing 300 kg. The missile can strike not only at ships, but also at ground targets with predetermined coordinates at a distance of up to 500 km. The Kalibr cruise missiles are armed with a high-explosive penetrating warhead weighing up to 450 kg, with a firing range of about 1,500 km. Izvestia has already written that in the future RTOs should be armed with a miniature version of the Zircon hypersonic missile.
They also have a 100mm A-190 gun mount on board. From the air, the ship is covered by the AK-630M-2 Duet 30-mm anti-aircraft artillery system and the Gibka launchers for the Igla or Verba anti-aircraft missiles.
RTOs are included in the reconnaissance-strike and reconnaissance-fire circuits. This made the Buyany-M universal strike platforms capable of operating in close conjunction with the Aerospace Forces and ground forces.
The Navy is now being actively strengthened. "Izvestia" wrote that the Ministry of Defense agreed on a plan for the modernization of the unique ship of the Northern Fleet "Admiral Chabanenko". Since the early 1990s, it has been one of the most powerful representatives of the country's Navy. After the upgrade, it will be equipped with Caliber cruise missiles, hypersonic Zircons and Kh-35 torpedo missiles.
https://iz-ru.translate.goog/1282145/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/put-na-vodu-mrk-naro-fominsk-otpraviat-na-baltiku?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en
The ship will join the Navy before the end of the year
The Baltic Fleet is waiting for a missile boost. By the end of the year, it will include the newest small rocket ship (MRK) "Naro-Fominsk" of project 21631 "Buyan-M". In his arsenal - cruise missiles "Caliber" and supersonic "Onyx". The ship will be launched in the first half of the year, after which its testing will begin. The RTO crew has already been formed and a base in Baltiysk has been prepared. Despite their small size, the Buyans can be called one of the most dangerous in the Baltic: they are capable of hitting ships and ground targets at a distance of thousands of kilometers. Experts warn that the military-political confrontation between Russia and NATO in the Baltic region will not end soon, and the strengthening of the Navy will become an additional deterrent.
The Baltic is waiting
As sources in the military department told Izvestia, a decision has already been made to include the new Naro-Fominsk RTO in the Baltic Fleet. Options for transferring the ship to the Black Sea Fleet or the Caspian Flotilla were discussed, but in the end the choice was made in favor of the Baltic Fleet. A crew has already been formed for the new ship, and all the necessary infrastructure has been prepared for it at the naval base in Baltiysk - in particular, a berthing area has been built and equipped.
According to sources, while the ship is at the shipyard in Zelenodolsk and will be launched in the first half of the year. Usually the ships are handed over to the Navy on the eve of the new year, but the Naro-Fominsk may be an exception. It is expected that it will be handed over to the fleet ahead of schedule - this fall. The technology for manufacturing RTOs of project 21631 has been worked out, and there are no visible reasons for the delay in the construction of Naro-Fominsk.
Today, the Navy has nine Buyanov-Ms, which are part of the Baltic and Black Sea Fleets and the Caspian Flotilla. Three more Project 21631 ships are being built under an additional contract. "Naro-Fominsk" became the second RTO laid down under this agreement between the Ministry of Defense and JSC Zelenodolsk Plant named after A.M. Gorky". According to Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov, the value of the contract is 27 billion rubles.
NATO countries are now building up their forces in the Baltic region, and they are not going to leave from there, Inna Vetrenko, head of the department of management and social technologies at the North-Western Institute of the RANEPA, explained to Izvestia.
“ There has been a tense situation there in recent years,” she reminded. - In the context of the escalation of the confrontation between Russia and the United States and NATO countries, it will not become calmer there. The region is considered to be our weak point and strong pressure is exerted in this area. First of all, this applies to the Kaliningrad region . Politicians from a number of EU countries say that it allegedly does not rightfully belong to Russia. Now the situation is only getting worse. Russia needs to increase its military forces there, and the appearance of new ships will not be superfluous.
RTOs are perfect for operations in coastal seas - the Baltic Sea is one of them, military expert Dmitry Boltenkov told Izvestia.
“Buyan-M is a universal platform with eight launchers for cruise missiles,” he specified. - After reloading, the salvo can be repeated. "Buyans" capable of striking both sea and land targets. In the event of an aggravation of the situation, these ships will have to disperse, and during the outbreak of hostilities they will deliver ultra-precise strikes against important targets, including those deep in enemy territory. These may be military, naval bases, airfields or other facilities. Thus, Buyany-M should become an additional deterrent.
The Baltic Fleet now includes two RTOs of this project - Zeleny Dol and Serpukhov. Both ships have proven themselves well, recalled Dmitry Boltenkov.
Initially, the Buyans-M were developed for the protection and protection of the coastal marine zone, as well as for operations on large rivers and lakes. But the launches of Caliber from the waters of the Caspian and Mediterranean seas against terrorist targets in Syria have demonstrated their ability to deliver ultra-precise missile strikes at a distance of about 1.5 thousand km.
The first rocket launches of Buyanov-M in the fall of 2015 became a worldwide sensation. For the Western media, the shock capabilities of the "kids" came as a surprise.
In 2016, Buyany-M again surprised the Western "partners". The journey around Europe from the Baltic to the Mediterranean Sea of two Buyanov-Ms - Serpukhov and Zeleny Dol - made a lot of noise. Representatives of the European media did not expect to see carriers of long-range Caliber cruise missiles off their coasts.
These ships were built using modern technologies. "Kids" received futuristic broken contours that make them hardly noticeable to radar stations. Their small size allows them to hide in sea skerries, in channels and along the banks of rivers and lakes, as well as to covertly approach enemy ships and coasts.
"Buyany-M" carry on board supersonic anti-ship missiles "Onyx" with a warhead weighing 300 kg. The missile can strike not only at ships, but also at ground targets with predetermined coordinates at a distance of up to 500 km. The Kalibr cruise missiles are armed with a high-explosive penetrating warhead weighing up to 450 kg, with a firing range of about 1,500 km. Izvestia has already written that in the future RTOs should be armed with a miniature version of the Zircon hypersonic missile.
They also have a 100mm A-190 gun mount on board. From the air, the ship is covered by the AK-630M-2 Duet 30-mm anti-aircraft artillery system and the Gibka launchers for the Igla or Verba anti-aircraft missiles.
RTOs are included in the reconnaissance-strike and reconnaissance-fire circuits. This made the Buyany-M universal strike platforms capable of operating in close conjunction with the Aerospace Forces and ground forces.
The Navy is now being actively strengthened. "Izvestia" wrote that the Ministry of Defense agreed on a plan for the modernization of the unique ship of the Northern Fleet "Admiral Chabanenko". Since the early 1990s, it has been one of the most powerful representatives of the country's Navy. After the upgrade, it will be equipped with Caliber cruise missiles, hypersonic Zircons and Kh-35 torpedo missiles.
https://iz-ru.translate.goog/1282145/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/put-na-vodu-mrk-naro-fominsk-otpraviat-na-baltiku?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en
GarryB, George1, dino00, zardof and Hole like this post
Krepost- Posts : 781
Points : 783
Join date : 2021-12-07
100mm gun ammunition loading on Makhachkala (Buyan class, not Buyan-M)
GarryB, George1, GunshipDemocracy and Hole like this post
Hole- Posts : 11111
Points : 11089
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
GarryB, GunshipDemocracy and Arkanghelsk like this post
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E- Posts : 737
Points : 753
Join date : 2016-01-20
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Would not be 6 ships, of which 4 built in Iran, with PanzirM not something for Iran and the Persichen Golf?
Or wouldn't this be a good addition to the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea? The river Hub too short for this?
Why not extend the ship by 8m and incorporate Torm2 and expand the VLS by 4 cells (including 2 anti -ship missiles)?
Such a Buyan-M2 version would also be well suited as a small accompanying body.
GarryB- Posts : 40489
Points : 40989
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
TOR is normally fitted to very large ships as a CIWS defence system... it is carried by the Orlan class and the Kuznetsov class... its radar and EO equipment are quite large and bulky to fit on small vessels.
If you look at images of the Kuznetsov you can see the four radar mounts for the Kinzhals (Dagger) in each corner of the main Island.
They would have to upgrade the system to take advantage of the ships fixed AESA arrays for search and tracking... perhaps that is what they are in the process of doing because new electronics and radar equipment would be good for both land and sea based versions... preferably something fixed with 360 degree views so search is electronically scanned and so is tracking which would allow better SA from one vehicle/vessel.
The new very short range self defence missiles they are talking about developing would be excellent for ship use too and could be carried in enormous numbers...
If you look at images of the Kuznetsov you can see the four radar mounts for the Kinzhals (Dagger) in each corner of the main Island.
They would have to upgrade the system to take advantage of the ships fixed AESA arrays for search and tracking... perhaps that is what they are in the process of doing because new electronics and radar equipment would be good for both land and sea based versions... preferably something fixed with 360 degree views so search is electronically scanned and so is tracking which would allow better SA from one vehicle/vessel.
The new very short range self defence missiles they are talking about developing would be excellent for ship use too and could be carried in enormous numbers...
ALAMO- Posts : 7464
Points : 7554
Join date : 2014-11-25
Tor is a very expensive system, to begin with.
It was designed to destroy the most dangerous targets at the moment, that was a sea skimming missiles and anti radiation missiles targeting the battery level radars or a ship defense. As a sidelobe of this, it was good enough to defeat artillery rounds and other easy targets.
Now it can be used for a stupid jobs like killing the $500 drones, because it is well established in the armed forces, and the stocks of missiles are accounted for tens of thousands. With thousands of them on the edge of disposal anyway.
What they really need, is a light, inexpensive, F&F system with an engagement envelope up to 10 km and 20 km distance, and what we get is a 57E6 type of missile, but with IR seeker.
It was designed to destroy the most dangerous targets at the moment, that was a sea skimming missiles and anti radiation missiles targeting the battery level radars or a ship defense. As a sidelobe of this, it was good enough to defeat artillery rounds and other easy targets.
Now it can be used for a stupid jobs like killing the $500 drones, because it is well established in the armed forces, and the stocks of missiles are accounted for tens of thousands. With thousands of them on the edge of disposal anyway.
What they really need, is a light, inexpensive, F&F system with an engagement envelope up to 10 km and 20 km distance, and what we get is a 57E6 type of missile, but with IR seeker.
GarryB- Posts : 40489
Points : 40989
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
What they are doing at the moment I understand is extending the flight range of SOSNA-R to 20km... it is a cheap laser beam riding missile that is rather high speed but quite small and light.
The Kornet missile was dissed in the west as being too expensive to buy in numbers but has been exported for 5K a missile, which suggests they probably pay 3K per missile for Russian missiles.
The Bulat is a smaller lighter version of the Kornet, but that is mostly because it has a smaller lighter warhead for targets that are not MBTs so there is no reason to think it is slower or shorter ranged than the original Kornet and should be lighter and cheaper.
A version with a HE warhead would be excellent for anti drone use, and could be carried in larger numbers than the bigger heavier Kornet.
SOSNA missiles would also be a valuable addition but I suspect 9M100 missiles with all weather ARH missiles and these new self defence missiles they are planning would be rather interesting too.
The TOR system is not cheap but the command guided missiles it uses are super cheap... a new version with AESA search and tracking radar would be excellent and allow much better performance.
There was talk of new TOR missiles that are smaller and lighter that can be carried in much greater numbers to deal with drone and artillery attacks.
The original TOR had 8 missiles ready to fire but the current model has 16 missiles ready to fire... with new mini anti drone and anti artillery shell missiles who knows how many... not only smaller calibre but also shorter so they could be stacked in two layers...
There was talk of a land based missile of 10-20kg weight with the precision for direct hits on targets and enough HE mass to set of HE shells and rockets, but be carried in large numbers so they can defend from artillery barrages and drone strikes.
The Kornet missile was dissed in the west as being too expensive to buy in numbers but has been exported for 5K a missile, which suggests they probably pay 3K per missile for Russian missiles.
The Bulat is a smaller lighter version of the Kornet, but that is mostly because it has a smaller lighter warhead for targets that are not MBTs so there is no reason to think it is slower or shorter ranged than the original Kornet and should be lighter and cheaper.
A version with a HE warhead would be excellent for anti drone use, and could be carried in larger numbers than the bigger heavier Kornet.
SOSNA missiles would also be a valuable addition but I suspect 9M100 missiles with all weather ARH missiles and these new self defence missiles they are planning would be rather interesting too.
The TOR system is not cheap but the command guided missiles it uses are super cheap... a new version with AESA search and tracking radar would be excellent and allow much better performance.
There was talk of new TOR missiles that are smaller and lighter that can be carried in much greater numbers to deal with drone and artillery attacks.
The original TOR had 8 missiles ready to fire but the current model has 16 missiles ready to fire... with new mini anti drone and anti artillery shell missiles who knows how many... not only smaller calibre but also shorter so they could be stacked in two layers...
There was talk of a land based missile of 10-20kg weight with the precision for direct hits on targets and enough HE mass to set of HE shells and rockets, but be carried in large numbers so they can defend from artillery barrages and drone strikes.
Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
Points : 2591
Join date : 2022-01-06
Location : Z
There was a plan for more ships and BMPD wrote about it in 2019, so we have to wait .....
Plans to continue the construction of modernized small missile ships of project 21631
According to the Zvezda TV channel, speaking at the launching ceremony on June 11, 2019 in Zelenodolsk (Republic of Tatarstan) at JSC Zelenodolsk Plant named after A.M. Gorky, the eighth of a series of small missile ship of project 21631 (code "Buyan-M") "Ingushetia" being built there, Rear Admiral Vladimir Tryapichnikov, head of the shipbuilding department of the Russian Navy, expressed the hope that in 2024 the construction of modernized ships of project 21631 will begin.
According to Tryapichnikov, the upgraded Project 21631 ships will receive an increased ammunition load.
“While studies are underway ... I hope that from 2024 we will do everything to launch a modernized ship of this series,” said Tryapichnikov.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi59vy1-fz3AhXQhqQKHbXGDo0QFnoECA0QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbmpd.livejournal.com%2F3674075.html&usg=AOvVaw0d0OuCwrTmDif5x4Pl1Lzf
Plans to continue the construction of modernized small missile ships of project 21631
According to the Zvezda TV channel, speaking at the launching ceremony on June 11, 2019 in Zelenodolsk (Republic of Tatarstan) at JSC Zelenodolsk Plant named after A.M. Gorky, the eighth of a series of small missile ship of project 21631 (code "Buyan-M") "Ingushetia" being built there, Rear Admiral Vladimir Tryapichnikov, head of the shipbuilding department of the Russian Navy, expressed the hope that in 2024 the construction of modernized ships of project 21631 will begin.
According to Tryapichnikov, the upgraded Project 21631 ships will receive an increased ammunition load.
“While studies are underway ... I hope that from 2024 we will do everything to launch a modernized ship of this series,” said Tryapichnikov.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi59vy1-fz3AhXQhqQKHbXGDo0QFnoECA0QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbmpd.livejournal.com%2F3674075.html&usg=AOvVaw0d0OuCwrTmDif5x4Pl1Lzf
GarryB, George1, LMFS, Hole, lancelot, Broski and Arkanghelsk like this post
ALAMO- Posts : 7464
Points : 7554
Join date : 2014-11-25
GarryB wrote:What they are doing at the moment I understand is extending the flight range of SOSNA-R to 20km... it is a cheap laser beam riding missile that is rather high speed but quite small and light.
Yeah, and what the Sosna is?
A less expensive substitute for Tor and Pancyr, with passive guidance.
We should not be fooled by its small size, it is a quite lethal piece.
Warhead is bigger than MANPADS are using, and I mean much bigger - 7 kg. That allowed implementation of a fragmentation rod warhead, combined with a proximity fuse. That makes it a perfect anti drone piece, the only shortage was a low maximal altitude of 9M340 - 5km. But I don't buy that official number anyway, as the missile has energy potential to do much, much better. So I suppose it is an engagement algorithm the first to blame here, and that can be easily replaced, along with a more powerful first stage.
GarryB and Arkanghelsk like this post
Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
Points : 2591
Join date : 2022-01-06
Location : Z
There was also this info from August 27.2020.
ТАSS;
The missile ships of the Buyan-M and Gepard projects will receive an increase in the ammunition load of the Caliber
According to the head of the Ak Bars corporation, Renat Mistakhov, the hulls of the ships will remain practically the same, with the exception of the increased displacement
MOSCOW, 27 August. /TASS/. Project 21631 Buyan-M small missile ships and project 11661 Gepard patrol ships will receive an increased ammunition load of Caliber cruise missiles during the modernization, the Navy is interested in this project. This was announced in an interview with TASS by the head of the Ak Bars shipbuilding corporation Renat Mistakhov.
"We proposed a concept for two projects 21631 and 11661 with an increase in displacement. On the Buyans, for example, we proposed to put 16 launchers instead of 8. And on the Gepards, we proposed to expand the missile weapons to 24 launchers," Mistakhov said.
As a result, each project will add one more universal shipborne rifle complex with vertical shafts for launching cruise missiles.
"In particular, at 11661 we proposed to put two UKKS with eight cells behind the navigation bridge, in the middle of the ship's hull and one more UKKS will stand in the bow. This proposal was very interested in the Navy," the head of Ak Bars specified.
At the same time, the hulls of the ships will remain practically the same, with the exception of the increased displacement. "We propose to take as a basis the hull that has proven itself, including in combat conditions, because the successful hull of a ship is seaworthiness," Mistakhov said.
"This will, of course, pull the displacement along with it. If we take a small missile ship, its displacement with an additional UKKS will increase from 900 to approximately 1300-1500 tons. If we take on the basis of project 11661, then it is possible to put three UKKS on its displacement even now, " - explained the interlocutor.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiQ_aDh1YD4AhXBCBAIHej4B-wQFnoECAkQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftass.ru%2Farmiya-i-opk%2F9300717&usg=AOvVaw2Zvxkf_c_HhOJXhYV1zXEE
ТАSS;
The missile ships of the Buyan-M and Gepard projects will receive an increase in the ammunition load of the Caliber
According to the head of the Ak Bars corporation, Renat Mistakhov, the hulls of the ships will remain practically the same, with the exception of the increased displacement
MOSCOW, 27 August. /TASS/. Project 21631 Buyan-M small missile ships and project 11661 Gepard patrol ships will receive an increased ammunition load of Caliber cruise missiles during the modernization, the Navy is interested in this project. This was announced in an interview with TASS by the head of the Ak Bars shipbuilding corporation Renat Mistakhov.
"We proposed a concept for two projects 21631 and 11661 with an increase in displacement. On the Buyans, for example, we proposed to put 16 launchers instead of 8. And on the Gepards, we proposed to expand the missile weapons to 24 launchers," Mistakhov said.
As a result, each project will add one more universal shipborne rifle complex with vertical shafts for launching cruise missiles.
"In particular, at 11661 we proposed to put two UKKS with eight cells behind the navigation bridge, in the middle of the ship's hull and one more UKKS will stand in the bow. This proposal was very interested in the Navy," the head of Ak Bars specified.
At the same time, the hulls of the ships will remain practically the same, with the exception of the increased displacement. "We propose to take as a basis the hull that has proven itself, including in combat conditions, because the successful hull of a ship is seaworthiness," Mistakhov said.
"This will, of course, pull the displacement along with it. If we take a small missile ship, its displacement with an additional UKKS will increase from 900 to approximately 1300-1500 tons. If we take on the basis of project 11661, then it is possible to put three UKKS on its displacement even now, " - explained the interlocutor.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiQ_aDh1YD4AhXBCBAIHej4B-wQFnoECAkQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftass.ru%2Farmiya-i-opk%2F9300717&usg=AOvVaw2Zvxkf_c_HhOJXhYV1zXEE
GarryB, GunshipDemocracy, zardof, LMFS, Hole and Arkanghelsk like this post
GarryB- Posts : 40489
Points : 40989
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Yeah, and what the Sosna is?
It is a laser beam riding replacement for the SA-9 and SA-13 type SAMs... it has also been called Pine.
Related to the naval Palma missile system which is a cheaper lighter version of Kashtan.
It is a two stage SAM but it uses laser beam riding guidance instead of command guidance... both types of guidance are cheap and simple and easy to mass produce.
A less expensive substitute for Tor and Pancyr, with passive guidance.
The systems are cheaper... TOR has a capable and expensive 3D search radar and phased array tracking radar and modern EOs, and Pantsir also has expensive sensors including search and tracking radars as well as modern EO devices.
SOSNA and Palma seems to be EO only.
The difference in price of command guided and laser beam riding missiles would not be immense as both are very affordable compared with IIR or ARH or other seeker combination options.
That makes it a perfect anti drone piece, the only shortage was a low maximal altitude of 9M340 - 5km. But I don't buy that official number anyway, as the missile has energy potential to do much, much better.
The Kornet-EM is a laser beam riding missile and in the HE equipped model has a flight range of 10km and an effective altitude of 10km, so I would think a two stage SOSNA-R missile should be able to do better than 5km altitude.
There was a news report that they were expanding its performance to reach 20km range targets, and that was delaying its service entry... but I would think a combination launcher that could carry Kornet and Sosna and Bulat which is essentially a mini Kornet would be rather interesting. The high speed of SOSNA would make it effective against a range of air targets including helicopters but also faster aircraft like light attack aircraft an low flying fighters, while against drones I would think Bulat with a HE warhead would be cheapest... even though we don't know a lot about it yet.
Mount one of those anti drone lasers on the vehicle and you would have an excellent AA vehicle package.
So I suppose it is an engagement algorithm the first to blame here, and that can be easily replaced, along with a more powerful first stage.
The range of the SA-19 went from 8km to 10km and the SA-22 from 10km to 20km and now 40km for the latest variant two stage missile and the core of the upgrades seems to be more energetic solid rocket boosters, so I would think extending the range to 20km would also allow an altitude improvement too to get higher flying threats.
This conflict i the Ukraine is a good boost for Russian air defence systems and tactics... this will be valuable if they get time to make the needed changes and introduce new lines of development.
The missile ships of the Buyan-M and Gepard projects will receive an increase in the ammunition load of the Caliber
This is good because the UKSK launchers carry more than just calibre, they seem to be developing a range of weapons and equipment that can be carried and launched from them which is going to make these ships more versatile and capable.
Right now they could carry Otvet anti sub ballistic rocket delivered torpedoes, but it could just as easily be an underwater drone it delivers that lands in the water 50km away and starts active sonar pinging looking for enemy subs to reveal their presence or attract enemy subs from the area to focus on that area instead of where the ship is.
Equally at tube could carry a Zircon or Onyx or 2,500km range land attack cruise missile or soon enough a 4,500km range land attack cruise missile... amazing potential for such a small vessel.
Arkanghelsk and Podlodka77 like this post
Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
Points : 2591
Join date : 2022-01-06
Location : Z
GarryB wrote:Yeah, and what the Sosna is?
It is a laser beam riding replacement for the SA-9 and SA-13 type SAMs... it has also been called Pine.
Related to the naval Palma missile system which is a cheaper lighter version of Kashtan.
It is a two stage SAM but it uses laser beam riding guidance instead of command guidance... both types of guidance are cheap and simple and easy to mass produce.
A less expensive substitute for Tor and Pancyr, with passive guidance.
The systems are cheaper... TOR has a capable and expensive 3D search radar and phased array tracking radar and modern EOs, and Pantsir also has expensive sensors including search and tracking radars as well as modern EO devices.
SOSNA and Palma seems to be EO only.
The difference in price of command guided and laser beam riding missiles would not be immense as both are very affordable compared with IIR or ARH or other seeker combination options.
That makes it a perfect anti drone piece, the only shortage was a low maximal altitude of 9M340 - 5km. But I don't buy that official number anyway, as the missile has energy potential to do much, much better.
The Kornet-EM is a laser beam riding missile and in the HE equipped model has a flight range of 10km and an effective altitude of 10km, so I would think a two stage SOSNA-R missile should be able to do better than 5km altitude.
There was a news report that they were expanding its performance to reach 20km range targets, and that was delaying its service entry... but I would think a combination launcher that could carry Kornet and Sosna and Bulat which is essentially a mini Kornet would be rather interesting. The high speed of SOSNA would make it effective against a range of air targets including helicopters but also faster aircraft like light attack aircraft an low flying fighters, while against drones I would think Bulat with a HE warhead would be cheapest... even though we don't know a lot about it yet.
Mount one of those anti drone lasers on the vehicle and you would have an excellent AA vehicle package.
So I suppose it is an engagement algorithm the first to blame here, and that can be easily replaced, along with a more powerful first stage.
The range of the SA-19 went from 8km to 10km and the SA-22 from 10km to 20km and now 40km for the latest variant two stage missile and the core of the upgrades seems to be more energetic solid rocket boosters, so I would think extending the range to 20km would also allow an altitude improvement too to get higher flying threats.
This conflict i the Ukraine is a good boost for Russian air defence systems and tactics... this will be valuable if they get time to make the needed changes and introduce new lines of development.
The missile ships of the Buyan-M and Gepard projects will receive an increase in the ammunition load of the Caliber
This is good because the UKSK launchers carry more than just calibre, they seem to be developing a range of weapons and equipment that can be carried and launched from them which is going to make these ships more versatile and capable.
Right now they could carry Otvet anti sub ballistic rocket delivered torpedoes, but it could just as easily be an underwater drone it delivers that lands in the water 50km away and starts active sonar pinging looking for enemy subs to reveal their presence or attract enemy subs from the area to focus on that area instead of where the ship is.
Equally at tube could carry a Zircon or Onyx or 2,500km range land attack cruise missile or soon enough a 4,500km range land attack cruise missile... amazing potential for such a small vessel.
I think that with the increase of the combat set to two UKSK and thus full displacement, more powerful engines must come. I think that Russia will solve the problem of delivering engines on time in the next two to 3 years.
Variant 1. The ideal "small missile ship" would be with the following weapons; at least two eight-barrel UKSK, one 12-barrel air defense system (equivalent to S-350), or instead two Pancir-M, as well as two four-barrel Paket-NK.
Variant 2. However, there was a story that in addition to eight-barrel UKSK, it is necessary to make variants with four-barrel or six-barrel UKSK.
With two six-barrel UKSK launchers (12 missiles in total), the ship's impact capacity would be increased by 50%, but there would be no drastic increase in the ship displacement.
Variant 3. Perhaps a variant with one UKSK (8 rockets), two Pancir-M and two four-barrel Paket-NK would be enough. However, this variant is not an option, because the text talks about a larger quantity of "Kalibr" missiles.
What I would definitely add during the modernization is the Paket-NK, but with the installation of a more serious air defense system (which should be installed with two UKSK and Paket-NK), it inevitably means an increase in displacement and requires more powerful engines.
caveat emptor- Posts : 2005
Points : 2007
Join date : 2022-02-02
Location : Murrica
Just for the sake of clarity Sosna (Сосна) in Russian means Pine. Sometimes they translate the name, other times they don't.
GarryB likes this post
GarryB- Posts : 40489
Points : 40989
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
My understanding of the UKSK launcher is that it is fully modular and a single launcher is made of two components each carrying four tubes... so the options would be four or eight missiles but not six.
The interesting thing about Paket is that it is only a 324mm calibre weapon so they could in theory pack four into each UKSK launch tube... not sure how long they are but they weigh less than 400kgs each so they might be able to fit two layers deep meaning 8 missiles per UKSK tube, but they would need a small ejector rocket to launch them out and send them on the correct bearing for the target... you would want it to splash down not a huge distance from your ship... 100-500m preferably and to then head out in the direction of the target under its own power.
The interesting thing about Paket is that it is only a 324mm calibre weapon so they could in theory pack four into each UKSK launch tube... not sure how long they are but they weigh less than 400kgs each so they might be able to fit two layers deep meaning 8 missiles per UKSK tube, but they would need a small ejector rocket to launch them out and send them on the correct bearing for the target... you would want it to splash down not a huge distance from your ship... 100-500m preferably and to then head out in the direction of the target under its own power.
Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
Points : 2591
Join date : 2022-01-06
Location : Z
GarryB wrote:My understanding of the UKSK launcher is that it is fully modular and a single launcher is made of two components each carrying four tubes... so the options would be four or eight missiles but not six.
The interesting thing about Paket is that it is only a 324mm calibre weapon so they could in theory pack four into each UKSK launch tube... not sure how long they are but they weigh less than 400kgs each so they might be able to fit two layers deep meaning 8 missiles per UKSK tube, but they would need a small ejector rocket to launch them out and send them on the correct bearing for the target... you would want it to splash down not a huge distance from your ship... 100-500m preferably and to then head out in the direction of the target under its own power.
CHARACTERISTICS:
Caliber, mm: 324
Length, mm: 3200
Weight, kg, max: 390
Mass of explosive, kg, up to: 60
Travel range, km, up to: 20
Speed, knots: • I mode: 50 • II mode : 30
Depth, m, up to: 600
Range of action of the homing system, km, up to:
• depth over 200 m: 2.5
• depth up to 200 m: 1.2
Engine type: axial piston
• Number of modes: 2
• Power*, W: 60 -110 (I mode) 38 (II mode)
• Speed output. shafts*, rpm: 2000-2400 (I mode) 1700 (II mode)
• Engine weight*, kg: 12 — 28
• Power plant weight*, kg: 1445
• Engine dimensions*, mm: (149-120) *(260-280)
• Dimensions of power plant*, mm: 324*450
• Specific engine power*, KW/kg: 4.8 – 3.9
• Specific power of forces/plant*, kW/kg: 2.2
• Depth of torpedo travel, m: 6 - 800
• Type of fuel: Unitary mono-fuel with t combustion 1400 Celsius
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjO7JfBnoT4AhUSjqQKHVLLCLMQFnoECA0QAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbastion-karpenko.ru%2Ftorpedo-mtt%2F&usg=AOvVaw3MxgEMLtzkTQZWY0qSpDNO
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E- Posts : 737
Points : 753
Join date : 2016-01-20
ALAMO wrote:GarryB wrote:What they are doing at the moment I understand is extending the flight range of SOSNA-R to 20km... it is a cheap laser beam riding missile that is rather high speed but quite small and light.
Yeah, and what the Sosna is?
A less expensive substitute for Tor and Pancyr, with passive guidance.
We should not be fooled by its small size, it is a quite lethal piece.
Warhead is bigger than MANPADS are using, and I mean much bigger - 7 kg. That allowed implementation of a fragmentation rod warhead, combined with a proximity fuse. That makes it a perfect anti drone piece, the only shortage was a low maximal altitude of 9M340 - 5km. But I don't buy that official number anyway, as the missile has energy potential to do much, much better. So I suppose it is an engagement algorithm the first to blame here, and that can be easily replaced, along with a more powerful first stage.
This would be OK for self -protection. Although I am that boat with a Panzir would be better.
However, I am also concerned with the ability of fleet protection. For the Black Sea or the Mediterranean, I see 2x8 TORM2U than better protection. Especially since the AK630 would continue to be there, only placed further on the side next to the bridge and slightly protected on the sides.
GarryB- Posts : 40489
Points : 40989
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Google is proof the Russians are magicians....
A 390kg weapon with a 1.445 ton engine...
That is of course the export model, and it is primarily a self defence anti torpedo torpedo though it can sink subs and ships too.
At 3.2 m there should be plenty of room for two layers of them in the 10m deep UKSK launcher plus some sort of launcher/ejector to blow the object clear of the tube. Note the S-300 is launched up clear of the tube before its motor is started and it weighs about 1.8 tons, so throwing a 400kg item 100m out of the tube should not be that hard.
With decent search and tracking radar on the ship the Pine or MANPADS are much better than they sound.
Modern MANPADS like Igla-S and Verba and the new missile have proximity fuses so they can shoot down even rather small targets like ATGMs and if you have a decent radar set that gives you warning so you can have your missiles pointing in the right direction and the operator knows when to expect seeing the target shooting the target down is more more likely than say a man in a field with a MANPADS on his shoulder straining his eyes and ears trying to find a target... remember high subsonic targets wont be heard till they are close... supersonic targets wont be heard at allo.
Pine steps that up further because it has magnified optics and all weather optics and also a search radar to indicate incoming threats.
Pine is cheaper because it does not have its own radar... search or tracking, which makes the system cheaper and simpler, but the missiles being laser beam riders are also very very cheap too... no expensive nose mounted IIR sensor or active radar seeker.
The problem is the laser guidance because in sea conditions you might have fog or mist that limits the range of Thermal imagers and IR sensors and the distance the laser can be seen by the outgoing missile.
Normally the laser is very weak because the missile it is directing is looking directly into the beam... the beam does not need to travel all the way to the target and reflect off and back to the missile. Because the beam can be very weak it could sometimes struggle in fog or mist or low level cloud... but there is no reason why you couldn't crank up the power of the laser to work in difficult conditions.
The new 9M100 which is part of the land based S-350 and the sea based Redut system was supposed to use a IIR seeker with a two way digital datalink so it could be fired and directed by autopilot towards the direction of the target and get a lock on to the target after launch... this would be handing for vertical launch on ships or land vehicles or aircraft or internal carriage inside weapon bays. The F-35 and F-22 have to open their weapon bays and extend out their Sidewinder missiles to expose the IR sensors to get locks before they can launch their missiles... which makes them less stealthy.
It looks like the naval and land based models have ARH instead, which makes them less autonomous but more all weather capable.
The IIR versions use optical sensors that can see in IR and UV and visual light frequencies, which means its view of the target will be good enough for it to identify the target itself... it will have 3D IR signatures of targets so when it acquires its target it can identify it which improves its ability to hit targets or select higher priority targets in flight... you could potentially launch several missiles at once looking for different target types... the problem would be at low altitude at sea in various different temperatures you can get fog and mist which will effect your ability to detect a target and identify that target and engage it.
ARH versions can be like ARH missiles... launched in a specific direction looking for a specific target in that direction day night and all weather.
I would not be surprised if they didn't develop ARH and IIR guided versions, the LMUR seems to be IIR guided with a two way datalink so the operator can choose targets when needed.
Of course at the moment they are talking about mini defence missiles using ARH for precision that weigh about 10-20kg each to be carried in enormous numbers for use against individual missile, rocket and shell threats to ground and sea and perhaps air vehicles... which would be also useful against swarm attacks too along with jammers and lasers etc and EMP weapons.
For a small ship even just a blinding laser could ruin IIR guided anti ship missiles chances of a hit...
They have shown deck mounted TOR systems and the actual area 16 TOR missiles takes up is tiny... it is the same area as the turret ring of the TOR land based vehicle, so fitting deck mounted missiles would not be a problem and they are command guided missiles so any ship with a decent AESA radar array should be able to be modified to use them.
Some sort of reduced size MANPADS with a 4-5kg missile for anti drone use would be interesting... perhaps a kamikazi drone itself with a hardened front that rams drones that can fly around and ram multiple drones and then return to its launch area for refuelling and reuse... with the solid rocket booster or compressed air booster recharged.
A 390kg weapon with a 1.445 ton engine...
That is of course the export model, and it is primarily a self defence anti torpedo torpedo though it can sink subs and ships too.
At 3.2 m there should be plenty of room for two layers of them in the 10m deep UKSK launcher plus some sort of launcher/ejector to blow the object clear of the tube. Note the S-300 is launched up clear of the tube before its motor is started and it weighs about 1.8 tons, so throwing a 400kg item 100m out of the tube should not be that hard.
This would be OK for self -protection. Although I am that boat with a Panzir would be better.
With decent search and tracking radar on the ship the Pine or MANPADS are much better than they sound.
Modern MANPADS like Igla-S and Verba and the new missile have proximity fuses so they can shoot down even rather small targets like ATGMs and if you have a decent radar set that gives you warning so you can have your missiles pointing in the right direction and the operator knows when to expect seeing the target shooting the target down is more more likely than say a man in a field with a MANPADS on his shoulder straining his eyes and ears trying to find a target... remember high subsonic targets wont be heard till they are close... supersonic targets wont be heard at allo.
Pine steps that up further because it has magnified optics and all weather optics and also a search radar to indicate incoming threats.
Pine is cheaper because it does not have its own radar... search or tracking, which makes the system cheaper and simpler, but the missiles being laser beam riders are also very very cheap too... no expensive nose mounted IIR sensor or active radar seeker.
The problem is the laser guidance because in sea conditions you might have fog or mist that limits the range of Thermal imagers and IR sensors and the distance the laser can be seen by the outgoing missile.
Normally the laser is very weak because the missile it is directing is looking directly into the beam... the beam does not need to travel all the way to the target and reflect off and back to the missile. Because the beam can be very weak it could sometimes struggle in fog or mist or low level cloud... but there is no reason why you couldn't crank up the power of the laser to work in difficult conditions.
The new 9M100 which is part of the land based S-350 and the sea based Redut system was supposed to use a IIR seeker with a two way digital datalink so it could be fired and directed by autopilot towards the direction of the target and get a lock on to the target after launch... this would be handing for vertical launch on ships or land vehicles or aircraft or internal carriage inside weapon bays. The F-35 and F-22 have to open their weapon bays and extend out their Sidewinder missiles to expose the IR sensors to get locks before they can launch their missiles... which makes them less stealthy.
It looks like the naval and land based models have ARH instead, which makes them less autonomous but more all weather capable.
The IIR versions use optical sensors that can see in IR and UV and visual light frequencies, which means its view of the target will be good enough for it to identify the target itself... it will have 3D IR signatures of targets so when it acquires its target it can identify it which improves its ability to hit targets or select higher priority targets in flight... you could potentially launch several missiles at once looking for different target types... the problem would be at low altitude at sea in various different temperatures you can get fog and mist which will effect your ability to detect a target and identify that target and engage it.
ARH versions can be like ARH missiles... launched in a specific direction looking for a specific target in that direction day night and all weather.
I would not be surprised if they didn't develop ARH and IIR guided versions, the LMUR seems to be IIR guided with a two way datalink so the operator can choose targets when needed.
Of course at the moment they are talking about mini defence missiles using ARH for precision that weigh about 10-20kg each to be carried in enormous numbers for use against individual missile, rocket and shell threats to ground and sea and perhaps air vehicles... which would be also useful against swarm attacks too along with jammers and lasers etc and EMP weapons.
For a small ship even just a blinding laser could ruin IIR guided anti ship missiles chances of a hit...
They have shown deck mounted TOR systems and the actual area 16 TOR missiles takes up is tiny... it is the same area as the turret ring of the TOR land based vehicle, so fitting deck mounted missiles would not be a problem and they are command guided missiles so any ship with a decent AESA radar array should be able to be modified to use them.
Some sort of reduced size MANPADS with a 4-5kg missile for anti drone use would be interesting... perhaps a kamikazi drone itself with a hardened front that rams drones that can fly around and ram multiple drones and then return to its launch area for refuelling and reuse... with the solid rocket booster or compressed air booster recharged.
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E- Posts : 737
Points : 753
Join date : 2016-01-20
- Post n°550
Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:15 am
These ships are sure to have the start record for Kalibr, right?