The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

http://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201408161054-9n9n.htm

Strelkov will now take a post of commander of united Novorussian army, so he will now command both Donetsk and Lugansk army units, to make them more effective and better coordinated.

Does anyone know what type of Russian vehicles were destroyed and number of casualties?????

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

By the way, can this battle map that is often presented by trusted ? Just asking, because I saw another map today where both Luhansk and Donetsk where surrounded, so I hope that's a wrong map and that the maps that are updated in this thread are correct.

Can you provide a link to the map that you are referring to?

With respect to the series of maps I have been posting, it should never be a matter of trust. Like any thing analytical, you should see if you have enough proof to accept these maps as an approximation of the current situation or not. This is called intuitionism in the philosophy of science.

On the 13th of August, based on other evidence, I wrote

Apparently the Novorussian thrust (№16 in the map) has continued on and closed the ring around a large pocket of encircled fascists.

The map I posted then didn't show closing of the ring. It was only on the 15th that the map showing the complete encirclement became available; so all of this shows that the map is logical to me, albeit with a large time lag.

I think, as we speak, the Novorussian situation is better that what this map implies.

I cannot post yet, I think, so I need to write more posts. It was a Pro-Porky Boy leaning source but I always look at both sides to make up my mind. I read Novorossiya forces saying there is a very hard fight for Donetsk, so UKR Zombies should be very close to the city. But the question is: is the city surrounded?

Same about Luhansk. I do hope the maps in this thread are correct, but if we look at the big picture, Novorossiya-controlled areas have decreased considerably over the past few weeks. That cannot be denied at all. (Only fanatics would deny that, and there are a few of them on here).

So, unfortunately, Pro-Porky forces are on the offence, and are pushing slowly but steady NRossiya forces out of several areas.

Whatever Pro-Porky forces cannot take - they just bomb it to pieces. So they have in effect destroyed any possibility of Donbass being independent, and having some kind of viable economy to support itself.

Now, Russia will also suffer from the sanctions. That's also a fact. The EU will suffer too, but they are taking Russia "down" with them.

d_taddei2 wrote:Does anyone know what type of Russian vehicles were destroyed and number of casualties?????

None...no Russian Army convoys entered Ukrainian territory, if they did Tor-m1 batteries would make a mockery of Ukrainian airstrikes.

T055 wrote:
I do hope the maps in this thread are correct, but if we look at the big picture, Novorossiya-controlled areas have decreased considerably over the past few weeks. That cannot be denied at all. (Only fanatics would deny that, and there are a few of them on here)..

If we look at the bigger picture , then you will see how the Ukie army is fighting for nothing at all. They fighting
for the destruction of Ukraine.. because what they are trying to do is a military victory without majority of Ukrainian citizens support. So if they "win" in eastern Ukraine.. they will asked to move to Crimea.. by the white house who controls Kiev.. and then War with Russia.. and then in a small time , it will turn into a NATO proxy war ,with most of the fighters fighting for kiev being foreigners. There are already many reports of Black skinned soldiers fighting in the side of Kiev.  Is a war Kiev cannot win military..because its final phase is war against Crimea and Russia and NATO knows this. But their goal is not a military victory but economic sabotage against RUssia and damage its world image ,with the help of their propaganda to soviet union levels.. "it was Putin's missile who shot down Malasyan plane.. are the head lines of British media"..

Ukraine conflict is a NATO proxy war against Russia.. but is doomed to fail. Russia have not fall in the trap ,and have given readiness to help Ukraine . And give Humanitarian help not only to civilians but also Ukraine soldiers. And pushing for the war to end and things to be solved with diplomacy. The war in Ukraine will be a major failure for Obama administration because they are basically trying to split forever Ukraine from Russia ,but without offering them a better alternative.. because the EU is not paying Ukraine bills or helping them in any way. All the west is doing for Ukraine is giving them loans ,that it will cost them an arm and a leg to pay. and weapons to fight.. But no help in creating Jobs or helping their economy and not even paying their Gas bills , No Free Visa to work any part of Europe.

So sooner or later the same Euromaidans who protested at kiev ,will see they all were fooled and their nation is not any better under a EU association and they will rebel against USA and the EU take over their government. It will be funny to see that. There is already first signs of Euromaidans turning against the new government and asking to end the war and protesting the mobilization law.  About territorial gains , remember in world war 2.. Russia lost a lot of terrain , but what is happening to Ukrainians is similar to what happened to the nazis.. they are losing their steam and their momentum , and over stretching if another pro Russia front open less say in Kharkiv , the entire military campaign will collapse.. and will depend entirely of Foreign mercenaries recruited by NATO to do the fighting.

THe only concern i have is that the western Elite could feel hopeless ness in achieving their goals of Isolating Russia from the world and that when they begin to lose Ukraine that they change its policy ,to a one where if they do not control Ukraine ,then they will destroy it ,to blame Russia for it. Ukie Nuclear reactors and chemical plants are in big danger to be attacked by the west if Russia manage to reverse the coup and return again a rational government in power that represent all society not just the west.

Vann7 wrote:

T055 wrote:
I do hope the maps in this thread are correct, but if we look at the big picture, Novorossiya-controlled areas have decreased considerably over the past few weeks. That cannot be denied at all. (Only fanatics would deny that, and there are a few of them on here)..

If we look at the bigger picture , then you will see how the Ukie army is fighting for nothing at all. They fighting
for the destruction of Ukraine.. because what they are trying to do is a military victory without majority of Ukrainian citizens support. So if they "win" in eastern Ukraine.. they will asked to move to Crimea.. by the white house who controls Kiev.. and then War with Russia.. and then in a small time , it will turn into a NATO proxy war ,with most of the fighters fighting for kiev being foreigners. There are already many reports of Black skinned soldiers fighting in the side of Kiev.  Is a war Kiev cannot win military.. and NATO knows this. But their goal is not a military victory but economic sabotage against RUssia and damage its world image ,with the help of their propaganda to soviet union levels.. "it was Putin's missile who shot down Malasyan plane.. are the head lines of British media"..

Ukraine conflict is a NATO proxy war against Russia.. but is doomed to fail. Russia have not fall in the trap ,and have
given readiness to help Ukraine . And give Humanitarian help not only to civilians but also Ukraine soldiers. And pushing for the war to end and things to be solved with diplomacy. The war in Ukraine will be a major failure for Obama administration because they are basically trying to split forever Ukraine from Russia ,but without offering them a better alternative.. because the EU is not paying Ukraine bills or helping them in any way.

So sooner or later the same Euromaidans who protested at kiev ,will see they all were fooled  

I know that UKR Zombie StronK is fighting for nothing, but nonetheless they are fighting and systematically destroying infrastructure of what was supposed to be an independent Donbass area.

Now, it is pretty clear that no one (not Kiev nor Moscow) can or will invest anything economically in Donbass area. It's a mess - a "black hole".

What I am saying is that no one is going to win in Donbass in "reality", as the whole area is more or less destroyed. The Kiev regime has clearly decided as I pointed out earlier that they'll just bomb to pieces ares they cannot take. Even the area they took, was bombed hard and heavy before they took it. So it's a tragedy of civilians living there.

NATO has too many dogs who are willing to attack or hurt Russia and the strategy is working. NATO is winning one way or the other, as they always do, unfortunately.

It is the Russian area of influence (Ukraine) that has been couped and turned against Russia and people of Donbass. Only a powerful country or a bloc such as NATO can do things like this.

They've been doing this to Russia since 1991-1999. Then again against Iraq in 2003. Then against Libya and Syria since 2011. Now Ukraine.

Russia hasn't been able to "win" in ANY of these battlefields. Not in former Yugoslavia, not in Iraq, not in Libya.

What's left of Syria and what's left of Donbass is what Russia has left. From what I can see, not even that is going to last very long.

Also there is an alternative way to retaliate against Russia, beyond the fact that Donbass is destroyed and that sanctions are put on weakened Russian economy.

Kiev regime might not attack Crimea, but they definitely can attack Tiraspol after Donbass, which is very weak and surrounded completely by either NATO members or heavily pro-NATO wannabe members.

Vann7 wrote: the next video looks like taken from a zombie horror movie.. SOme ukie soldiers bodies ,totally black incinerated bodies. they look like taken from a zombies holywood movie. From all the videos of nasty kills the next video is by far the most mind blowing .    warning graphic!!!

  wow just like in a horror movie. Especially that guy at 5:15 with opened skull and eyes still in eye sockets. RIP to them anyways
I hope Ukrainians will see this   

T055 wrote:

Vann7 wrote:

T055 wrote:
I do hope the maps in this thread are correct, but if we look at the big picture, Novorossiya-controlled areas have decreased considerably over the past few weeks. That cannot be denied at all. (Only fanatics would deny that, and there are a few of them on here)..

If we look at the bigger picture , then you will see how the Ukie army is fighting for nothing at all. They fighting
for the destruction of Ukraine.. because what they are trying to do is a military victory without majority of Ukrainian citizens support. So if they "win" in eastern Ukraine.. they will asked to move to Crimea.. by the white house who controls Kiev.. and then War with Russia.. and then in a small time , it will turn into a NATO proxy war ,with most of the fighters fighting for kiev being foreigners. There are already many reports of Black skinned soldiers fighting in the side of Kiev.  Is a war Kiev cannot win military.. and NATO knows this. But their goal is not a military victory but economic sabotage against RUssia and damage its world image ,with the help of their propaganda to soviet union levels.. "it was Putin's missile who shot down Malasyan plane.. are the head lines of British media"..

Ukraine conflict is a NATO proxy war against Russia.. but is doomed to fail. Russia have not fall in the trap ,and have
given readiness to help Ukraine . And give Humanitarian help not only to civilians but also Ukraine soldiers. And pushing for the war to end and things to be solved with diplomacy. The war in Ukraine will be a major failure for Obama administration because they are basically trying to split forever Ukraine from Russia ,but without offering them a better alternative.. because the EU is not paying Ukraine bills or helping them in any way.

So sooner or later the same Euromaidans who protested at kiev ,will see they all were fooled  

I know that UKR Zombie StronK is fighting for nothing, but nonetheless they are fighting and systematically destroying infrastructure of what was supposed to be an independent Donbass area.

Now, it is pretty clear that no one (not Kiev nor Moscow) can or will invest anything economically in Donbass area. It's a mess - a "black hole".

What I am saying is that no one is going to win in Donbass in "reality", as the whole area is more or less destroyed. The Kiev regime has clearly decided as I pointed out earlier that they'll just bomb to pieces ares they cannot take. Even the area they took, was bombed hard and heavy before they took it. So it's a tragedy of civilians living there.

NATO has too many dogs who are willing to attack or hurt Russia and the strategy is working. NATO is winning one way or the other, as they always do, unfortunately.

It is the Russian area of influence (Ukraine) that has been couped and turned against Russia and people of Donbass. Only a powerful country or a bloc such as NATO can do things like this.

They've been doing this to Russia since 1991-1999. Then again against Iraq in 2003. Then against Libya and Syria since 2011. Now Ukraine.

Russia hasn't been able to "win" in ANY of these battlefields. Not in former Yugoslavia, not in Iraq, not in Libya.

What's left of Syria and what's left of Donbass is what Russia has left. From what I can see, not even that is going to last very long.

Also there is an alternative way to retaliate against Russia, beyond the fact that Donbass is destroyed and that sanctions are put on weakened Russian economy.

Kiev regime might not attack Crimea, but they definitely can attack Tiraspol after Donbass, which is very weak and surrounded completely by either NATO members or heavily pro-NATO wannabe members.

Any direct conflict with Russia may respond to a couple of things:

1) if Putin fails to defend Crimea, then he will be ousted and someone more likely an ultranationalist will get in, and then the shift will change.  Reason why Russia has been losing these games is because they have barely been playing, or not been playing at all (Yugoslavia and Ukraine as example).
2) A war will break out and tactical nukes will be used fairly quickly, which may escalate or descalate things.  Chances are, escalate things even greater.  And NATO is too spread out and too many nations have the incapabilities of actually defending themselves against Russia.

Russia can easily survive if surrounded.  Only problem is, they have to keep on their guard and redo their entire military and economic structure.  Economic structure is mainly financial as too many Russian companies have received long term low interest rate loans from the west.  This in turn hurt its own economy as well as many businesses in Russia are far too reliant on the government to step in to help them (just read up on Mikorn, pretty pathetic how they are wanting more money).

What Russia has working for them is the population.  Many of these NATO countries, excluding Poland because of their need to pretty much do whatever US tells them to do, are not interested in a direct conflict with Russia.  On the same note, if Russia does get provoked, they could probably conjure up much more than a million soldiers quite easily as people will see that their homeland is in direct threat.  That in itself could overwhelm NATO.  And add to things, China knows that they would be next so they would support the Russian's with pretty much whatever they need to combat NATO.

Russia just really fucking sucks at media PR outside of their borders.  Hence why nations like Ukraine can build up some anti Russian hate and get away with it.

But US has been losing allies too, in the middle east and in Latin America.  So Russia has the option to build up in Latin america to combat US position in the east, and that will make US extremely uneasy.

As well, the breakaway republic of Moldova is so heavily anti moldovan and NATO that they couldn't pull anything.  As well, Russian troops are located there.

Maybe it is me, but I am starting to find Putin lazy, maybe stupid. Dunno. But why not push for latin american countries and breakaway republics who are friendly to Russia, to join CSTO? So that Russia can place bases there and then NATO or US cannot say a damn thing. This will also protect Russian interest as well. Why is he not helping the Donbass people? I mean, they are blamed for it anyway, why not actually do something that will benefit him and his group, by actually doing something. Makes no sense to me. Get blamed for it all while doing nothing. Then why not do something? International market as far as I am concerned, is taking the side of USA over this. Only nations like India and China are not. And now they are being viewed as villians now too.

If Russia is helping them, then they are doing a shit job. I mean, seriously? They could send them a heck of a lot better equipment and supplies. As well, Ukrainian military strikes on Russian territory is happening often now. Why isnt there retaliation? Especially after some people did die from it. It just shows Putin's weakness in this whole affair, which seems to have Belarus spooked as they are taking the side of Ukraine over this.

T055 wrote:. NATO is winning one way or the other, as they always do, unfortunately.

Not really.. remember that in those wars before YUgoeslavia and Serbia.. NATO economies were strong and Russia
economy collapsed . SO the west was in shape to Bribe their way everyone with money to buy their support and control those countries. The west could offer a better alternative that time.And Russia was not in any shape to help anyone not even themselves. Aside that Those nations in  central Europe were more difficult to defend because far from Russia..a logistical problem. Today is a different story.. Russia economy is strong ,regardless of what you hear in the west.. Is stable one.. right now 1% GDP grow. They building modern warships and submarines like there is no tomorrow ,and in the near future 5-7 years it will be totally independent of the EU ,because basically will be selling to Asia all their energy. and the war in Ukraine is at the border of Russia , So Russia can basically declare a no fly zone in all Ukraine if they desire.. NATO Will not be able to use their air forces in case they choose to help Ukraine.

Also Russia have many spies and supporters in all Ukraine.. and will be very easy for Russia to sabotage and attack any NATO deployment of troops in eastern Ukraine behind enemy lines. IF they seek to really arm Ukraine and provide them with Patriot defenses ,SM-3 and all that.. There will be sabotage teams that will destroy it. I think US underestimated greatly the Support that Russia have inside Ukraine.. this is why took by surprise them how quickly they took Crimea. Being very conservative , i don't think The west have a chance to give the progress and prosperity they promised to kiev. And help their economy. It will be a matter of time the Kiev Junta will be overthrow when people no longer can tolerate the endless war and the bad economy.

Vann7 wrote:

T055 wrote:. NATO is winning one way or the other, as they always do, unfortunately.

Not really.. remember that in those wars before YUgoeslavia and Serbia.. NATO economies were strong and Russia
economy collapsed . So they were not in any shape to help anyone not even themselves. Aside that Those nations in  central Europe were more difficult to defend because far from Russia..a logistical problem. Today is a different story.. Russia economy is strong ,regardless of what you hear in the west.. Is stable one.. right now 1% GDP grow. and in the near future 5-7 years it will be totally independent of the EU ,because basically will be selling to Asia all their energy. and the war in Ukraine is at the border of Russia , So Russia can basically declare a no fly zone in all Ukraine if they desire.. NATO Will not be able to use their airforces in any way inside Ukraine to bomb Russians.

You already saw reports? How NATO shipment of weapons to the Ukies is being hijacked .. Russia have many spies and supporters in all Ukraine.. and will be very easy for Russia to sabotage and attack any NATO deployment of troops in eastern Ukraine behind enemy lines. IF they seek to really arm Ukraine and provide them with Patriot defenses ,SM-3 and all that.. There will be sabotage teams that will destroy it. I think US underestimated greatly the
Support that Russia have inside Ukraine.. this is why took by surprise them how quickly they took Crimea.

But with Russia sitting around and almost doing nothing regarding eastern Ukraine, they will eventually lose that cause they already are feeling abandoned by Moscow. So I doubt that will stay the same forever.

In any case though, Russia has to really fucking move its stupid, outdated economic policies. I mean, Russian businesses are STILL obtaining loans from USA. WTF? Either Russian businessmen are really stupid, or Russians in general are naive.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-16/anti-putin-alliance-fraying-germany-slovenia-greece-czech-republic-urge-end-russian-

while Russia's GDP increased, seems that various EU countries are now contracting. As well, the anti Putin group seems to be turning a new message as they are going to feel the pinch and this is Ukraines fault.

sepheronx wrote:
In any case though, Russia has to really fucking move its stupid, outdated economic policies.  I mean, Russian businesses are STILL obtaining loans from USA.  WTF?  

Not really.. Taking loans from American Banks to build their pipelines was brilliant ..Because in case
of a total break of relations and economy war with the west..Russia can simply not pay its debts with american banks.   

And Russian debt is healthy.. Is only about 15% of their GDP.. British for example debt is like 90%. Russia have about $ 100 Billions in US bonds of their debt. IF Russia asked the money to China will have been bad.. because China is an ally ,and they cannot refuse to pay them.   

Vann7 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:
In any case though, Russia has to really fucking move its stupid, outdated economic policies.  I mean, Russian businesses are STILL obtaining loans from USA.  WTF?  

Not really.. Taking loans from American Banks to build their pipelines was brilliant ..Because in case
of a total break of relations and economy war with the west..Russia can simply not pay its debts with american banks.   

And Russian debt is healthy.. Is only about 15% of their GDP.. British for example debt is like 90%. Russia have about $ 100 Billions in US bonds of their debt. IF Russia asked the money to China will have been bad.. because China is an ally ,and they cannot refuse to pay them.   

Maybe. I am just thinking that in the future, Russian enterprises need to either use their own damn wealth to build up their economic base, maybe even ask the government nicely and give good reasons as to why they should be exempt from taxes for 5 years and not pay utilities, or seek loans from China.

Because otherwise, it is sad. Public debt in Russia is huge. And it is because of the businesses are constantly borrowing.

Personally I think that the direction in which the conflict is going is very similar to a Pyrrhic victory. Even if Kiev manages to push out the independents and reclaim the terrain, the losses in manpower, military hardware and assorted materiel will be just too great. Hell, they already are. The economy is on its knees with no visible way of bouncing back. Tanks, helicopters and aircraft have been destroyed left, right and center, lots of munitions spent. Americans learned a couple of times that war is an expensive business.

People say that Putin has put himself in a position where he has no viable exits. On the contrary, I think that he put himself in a great position. If with a limited support the independents can wrestle free of the Ukrainians, he gets a large, populous industrial region incorporated/friendly to his government. But a lack of outright victory is a victory in its own right- NATO gets separated from Russia with a huge, empty, economically depleted shell of a country filled with anti-war folks who just want to get back to their lives, not giving two shits about military alliances. Then, when the americans start knocking on the door wanting their loans back, the people will have to make a choice, either pick a side or get thrown back into a civil war (and we all know NATO doesn't like to have those on their doorsteps). Either way, the situation remains a problem for the west- can't accept Ukraine outright- too many strategic problems, civilization dificulties (yeah, I can already see Brits and Germans jumping high up in the air at the prospect of millions of Ukrainians flooding the streets of Berlin, London and Paris), economic hardships (plugging the hole with more money every day while still reeling from economic downturn and embargoes). On the other hand the Ukrainians can chose Russia with its "tough but fair" attitude to which the west can respond with... nothing.

Putin can't go wrong, because the whole situation is about who needs whom more- does Russia need the west more than the other way around. And the answer to that question is quite easy at the moment.

sepheronx wrote:Maybe it is me, but I am starting to find Putin lazy, maybe stupid.  Dunno.  But why not push for latin american countries and breakaway republics who are friendly to Russia, to join CSTO?  So that Russia can place bases there and then NATO or US cannot say a damn thing.  This will also protect Russian interest as well.  Why is he not helping the Donbass people?  I mean, they are blamed for it anyway, why not actually do something that will benefit him and his group, by actually doing something.  Makes no sense to me.  Get blamed for it all while doing nothing.  Then why not do something?  International market as far as I am concerned, is taking the side of USA over this.  Only nations like India and China are not.  And now they are being viewed as villians now too.

If Russia is helping them, then they are doing a shit job.  I mean, seriously?  They could send them a heck of a lot better equipment and supplies.  As well, Ukrainian military strikes on Russian territory is happening often now.  Why isnt there retaliation?  Especially after some people did die from it.  It just shows Putin's weakness in this whole affair, which seems to have Belarus spooked as they are taking the side of Ukraine over this.

I agree with you here. Although I don't think Putin is lazy. The fact is that Russia's economy is just too weak, unfortunately and too dependent on the EU market.

Just ignore what fanboys are saying here, what Russia "might or might not have" in 5-6 years time. The fact is that the Russian economy won't grow for the year of 2014, and most likely will go into recession in 2015 because of the sanctions.

Being in recession and having an "arms rearmament" program that's already delayed big time, is really NOT a good situation to be in.

The U.S. and its allies has shown that they can open multiple fronts against Russia. In Iraq, then in Libya and Syria at the SAME time, while taking on Ukraine also. That's brutal.

And believe me - the U.S. and the EU have "plans" for Belarus and Armenia too. They have so-called "Eastern Partnership" plan. We all know what that means - Belarus and Armenia going down the hard way eventually.

So the U.S./NATO&EU aren't stopping. They have increased their agressive behaviour against Russia and its allies for the past few years.

While I agree with your point that Russia has "gained" a few allies in Latin America, those are very, very WEAK allies. Nicaragua, Cuba, Bolivia, Argentina, all good, but extremely weak in every way possible.

What was supposed to be a "crown jewel", Venezuela, is in serious political and financial mess as of today. So counting on them as an ally might end sooner than you think. I can't see Maduro being president there longer than spring of 2019. I think they'll overthrow him before that time too.

So Russia has been losing a lot. Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine for the past 11 years. The worst part is that Libya, Syria and Ukraine, all three happened for the past 3 years. So these are extremely aggressive movements by the U.S./NATO&EU towards Russia and its allies.

T055 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Maybe it is me, but I am starting to find Putin lazy, maybe stupid.  Dunno.  But why not push for latin american countries and breakaway republics who are friendly to Russia, to join CSTO?  So that Russia can place bases there and then NATO or US cannot say a damn thing.  This will also protect Russian interest as well.  Why is he not helping the Donbass people?  I mean, they are blamed for it anyway, why not actually do something that will benefit him and his group, by actually doing something.  Makes no sense to me.  Get blamed for it all while doing nothing.  Then why not do something?  International market as far as I am concerned, is taking the side of USA over this.  Only nations like India and China are not.  And now they are being viewed as villians now too.

If Russia is helping them, then they are doing a shit job.  I mean, seriously?  They could send them a heck of a lot better equipment and supplies.  As well, Ukrainian military strikes on Russian territory is happening often now.  Why isnt there retaliation?  Especially after some people did die from it.  It just shows Putin's weakness in this whole affair, which seems to have Belarus spooked as they are taking the side of Ukraine over this.

I agree with you here. Although I don't think Putin is lazy. The fact is that Russia's economy is just too weak, unfortunately and too dependent on the EU market.

Just ignore what fanboys are saying here, what Russia "might or might not have" in 5-6 years time. The fact is that the Russian economy won't grow for the year of 2014, and most likely will go into recession in 2015 because of the sanctions.

Being in recession and having an "arms rearmament" program that's already delayed big time, is really NOT a good situation to be in.

The U.S. and its allies has shown that they can open multiple fronts against Russia. In Iraq, then in Libya and Syria at the SAME time, while taking on Ukraine also. That's brutal.

And believe me - the U.S. and the EU have "plans" for Belarus and Armenia too. They have so-called "Eastern Partnership" plan. We all know what that means - Belarus and Armenia going down the hard way eventually.

So the U.S./NATO&EU aren't stopping. They have increased their agressive behaviour against Russia and its allies for the past few years.

While I agree with your point that Russia has "gained" a few allies in Latin America, those are very, very WEAK allies. Nicaragua, Cuba, Bolivia, Argentina, all good, but extremely weak in every way possible.

What was supposed to be a "crown jewel", Venezuela, is in serious political and financial mess as of today. So counting on them as an ally might end sooner than you think. I can't see Maduro being president there longer than spring of 2019. I think they'll overthrow him before that time too.

So Russia has been losing a lot. Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine for the past 11 years. The worst part is that Libya, Syria and Ukraine, all three happened for the past 3 years. So these are extremely aggressive movements by the U.S./NATO&EU towards Russia and its allies.

But you are wrong.  GDP increasing so far. 1%.  EU is contracting.  Russia is 6th largest economy in the world, etc etc etc.  your claims are bold and unsupported by reality.

Here is something that most people tend to forget, majority of the worlds resources lies within Russian territory.  Majority of major energy deals is with Russia.  Rosatom being the largest.  Add to the fact as well, Russia has had the opportunity to be self reliant because of USSR era.  Saying they are reliant on EU is a joke since so far, thanks to the sanctions, industrial growth in Russia has been over 1% so far.  Agriculture stocks in Russia has jumped significantly.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/14/uk-eurozone-economy-idUKKBN0GE0IG20140814

It has very little to do with economics. Russia already stated that if they need to negotiate imports from elsewhere, so be it. As well, they have already pushed majority of the major industrial companies to produce equipment that was earlier imported. Any further items needing to be imported will come from China as China is the world major exporter of nearly anything. Only thing left is industrial production devices, which Russia is ramping up production.

http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/745093 regarding agriculture.

sepheronx wrote:

T055 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Maybe it is me, but I am starting to find Putin lazy, maybe stupid.  Dunno.  But why not push for latin american countries and breakaway republics who are friendly to Russia, to join CSTO?  So that Russia can place bases there and then NATO or US cannot say a damn thing.  This will also protect Russian interest as well.  Why is he not helping the Donbass people?  I mean, they are blamed for it anyway, why not actually do something that will benefit him and his group, by actually doing something.  Makes no sense to me.  Get blamed for it all while doing nothing.  Then why not do something?  International market as far as I am concerned, is taking the side of USA over this.  Only nations like India and China are not.  And now they are being viewed as villians now too.

If Russia is helping them, then they are doing a shit job.  I mean, seriously?  They could send them a heck of a lot better equipment and supplies.  As well, Ukrainian military strikes on Russian territory is happening often now.  Why isnt there retaliation?  Especially after some people did die from it.  It just shows Putin's weakness in this whole affair, which seems to have Belarus spooked as they are taking the side of Ukraine over this.

I agree with you here. Although I don't think Putin is lazy. The fact is that Russia's economy is just too weak, unfortunately and too dependent on the EU market.

Just ignore what fanboys are saying here, what Russia "might or might not have" in 5-6 years time. The fact is that the Russian economy won't grow for the year of 2014, and most likely will go into recession in 2015 because of the sanctions.

Being in recession and having an "arms rearmament" program that's already delayed big time, is really NOT a good situation to be in.

The U.S. and its allies has shown that they can open multiple fronts against Russia. In Iraq, then in Libya and Syria at the SAME time, while taking on Ukraine also. That's brutal.

And believe me - the U.S. and the EU have "plans" for Belarus and Armenia too. They have so-called "Eastern Partnership" plan. We all know what that means - Belarus and Armenia going down the hard way eventually.

So the U.S./NATO&EU aren't stopping. They have increased their agressive behaviour against Russia and its allies for the past few years.

While I agree with your point that Russia has "gained" a few allies in Latin America, those are very, very WEAK allies. Nicaragua, Cuba, Bolivia, Argentina, all good, but extremely weak in every way possible.

What was supposed to be a "crown jewel", Venezuela, is in serious political and financial mess as of today. So counting on them as an ally might end sooner than you think. I can't see Maduro being president there longer than spring of 2019. I think they'll overthrow him before that time too.

So Russia has been losing a lot. Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine for the past 11 years. The worst part is that Libya, Syria and Ukraine, all three happened for the past 3 years. So these are extremely aggressive movements by the U.S./NATO&EU towards Russia and its allies.

But you are wrong.  GDP increasing so far. 1%.  EU is contracting.  Russia is 6th largest economy in the world, etc etc etc.  your claims are bold and unsupported by reality.

Here is something that most people tend to forget, majority of the worlds resources lies within Russian territory.  Majority of major energy deals is with Russia.  Rosatom being the largest.  Add to the fact as well, Russia has had the opportunity to be self reliant because of USSR era.  Saying they are reliant on EU is a joke since so far, thanks to the sanctions, industrial growth in Russia has been over 1% so far.  Agriculture stocks in Russia has jumped significantly.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/14/uk-eurozone-economy-idUKKBN0GE0IG20140814

It has very little to do with economics.  Russia already stated that if they need to negotiate imports from elsewhere, so be it.  As well, they have already pushed majority of the major industrial companies to produce equipment that was earlier imported.  Any further items needing to be imported will come from China as China is the world major exporter of nearly anything.  Only thing left is industrial production devices, which Russia is ramping up production.

http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/745093 regarding agriculture.

People also forget that if Russia directs its pipelines elsewhere, the prices in the west will skyrocket. Even if the Saudis could meet the demand, the construction of oil and gas pipes through the Levant will take years and huge stacks of cash. Not to mention the Caliphate. The americans might find themselves in the role of middle east firefighters again and again.

[quote="sepheronx"]

T055 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

But you are wrong.  GDP increasing so far. 1%.  EU is contracting.  Russia is 6th largest economy in the world, etc etc etc.  your claims are bold and unsupported by reality.

Here is something that most people tend to forget, majority of the worlds resources lies within Russian territory.  Majority of major energy deals is with Russia.  Rosatom being the largest.  Add to the fact as well, Russia has had the opportunity to be self reliant because of USSR era.  Saying they are reliant on EU is a joke since so far, thanks to the sanctions, industrial growth in Russia has been over 1% so far.  Agriculture stocks in Russia has jumped significantly.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/14/uk-eurozone-economy-idUKKBN0GE0IG20140814

It has very little to do with economics.  Russia already stated that if they need to negotiate imports from elsewhere, so be it.  As well, they have already pushed majority of the major industrial companies to produce equipment that was earlier imported.  Any further items needing to be imported will come from China as China is the world major exporter of nearly anything.  Only thing left is industrial production devices, which Russia is ramping up production.

http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/745093 regarding agriculture.

No, I am not wrong.

This is official statistics, quoted by Russia Today:

1st quarter for Russia was 0,5% recession

2nd quarter for Russia was 0,8% growth

Russian officials are expecting a 0,5% growth for this year. "Growing" by 0,5% is really not much to boast about.

I quote:

Russia's gross domestic product (GDP) increased by 0.8 percent between April and June, compared to the same period last year, according to a preliminary estimate by Russian statistics bureau Rosstat.

The growth is enough to escape falling into a technical recession (two consecutive quarters of contracted growth) but still disappoints the Ministry of Economic Development’s baseline estimate that the Russian economy would grow by 1.1 percent in the second quarter.

In the first quarter of 2014, between January and March, Russia’s seasonally adjusted GDP fell by 0.5 percent.

Economy Minister Aleksey Ulyukaev says an optimistic GDP all of 2014 in total will be 1.1 percent, but previously stated that he wouldn't be surprised if growth was negative. Russia’s Central Bank estimates that growth will be 0.5 percent.

End quote

Russia does not have 6th largest economy in the world. Calculated in nominal GDP it is 8th largest in the world, just below the level of the UK.

Calculated in PPP, yes, Russia is 6th then.

However, if you take a look at PPP projections, since that's what you're using as measurement, the Russia economy even in PPP, is expected to fall further down the list sometimes after 2020.

Being 6th or 8th place for that matter is not huge at all. Just look at who the two top 2 countries are (USA and China) and see their current and projected GDP (PPP) and you get the picture of how massive the gap actually is. It will only grow bigger.

By 2019, IMF estimates that China's economy will be 22,4 trillion USD (PPP). The U.S. economy 22 trillion USD (PPP), while the Russian economy will be 3,27 trillion USD (PPP).

So, to sum this up, official Russian sources are expecting 0,5% growth for 2014.

The war for Ukraine is going to continue and you can be sure that the U.S. and the EU will use everything they can to bring Russia further down because of Donbass.

They will shell Donetsk and Luhansk to ruins. Then if Kiev regime doesn't take Crimea, or Tiraspol for that matter, you can be use they'll take over Gagauz. And Romania absorbing the majority of Moldova into NATO and EU.

And it will be Belarus and Armenia' turn after that.

I'd rather have it grow than have it inflate (cough...US economy...cough).  

d_taddei2 wrote:Does anyone know what type of Russian vehicles were destroyed and number of casualties?????

As has been explained, no Russian vehicles were destroyed or involved.

T055 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

T055 wrote:

But you are wrong.  GDP increasing so far. 1%.  EU is contracting.  Russia is 6th largest economy in the world, etc etc etc.  your claims are bold and unsupported by reality.

Here is something that most people tend to forget, majority of the worlds resources lies within Russian territory.  Majority of major energy deals is with Russia.  Rosatom being the largest.  Add to the fact as well, Russia has had the opportunity to be self reliant because of USSR era.  Saying they are reliant on EU is a joke since so far, thanks to the sanctions, industrial growth in Russia has been over 1% so far.  Agriculture stocks in Russia has jumped significantly.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/14/uk-eurozone-economy-idUKKBN0GE0IG20140814

It has very little to do with economics.  Russia already stated that if they need to negotiate imports from elsewhere, so be it.  As well, they have already pushed majority of the major industrial companies to produce equipment that was earlier imported.  Any further items needing to be imported will come from China as China is the world major exporter of nearly anything.  Only thing left is industrial production devices, which Russia is ramping up production.

http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/745093 regarding agriculture.

No, I am not wrong.

This is official statistics, quoted by Russia Today:

1st quarter for Russia was 0,5% recession

2nd quarter for Russia was 0,8% growth

Russian officials are expecting a 0,5% growth for this year. "Growing" by 0,5% is really not much to boast about.

I quote:

Russia's gross domestic product (GDP) increased by 0.8 percent between April and June, compared to the same period last year, according to a preliminary estimate by Russian statistics bureau Rosstat.

The growth is enough to escape falling into a technical recession (two consecutive quarters of contracted growth) but still disappoints the Ministry of Economic Development’s baseline estimate that the Russian economy would grow by 1.1 percent in the second quarter.

In the first quarter of 2014, between January and March, Russia’s seasonally adjusted GDP fell by 0.5 percent.

Economy Minister Aleksey Ulyukaev says an optimistic GDP all of 2014 in total will be 1.1 percent, but previously stated that he wouldn't be surprised if growth was negative. Russia’s Central Bank estimates that growth will be 0.5 percent.

End quote

Russia does not have 6th largest economy in the world. Calculated in nominal GDP it is 8th largest in the world, just below the level of the UK.

Calculated in PPP, yes, Russia is 6th then.

However, if you take a look at PPP projections, since that's what you're using as measurement, the Russia economy even in PPP, is expected to fall further down the list sometimes after 2020.

Being 6th or 8th place for that matter is not huge at all. Just look at who the two top 2 countries are (USA and China) and see their current and projected GDP (PPP) and you get the picture of how massive the gap actually is. It will only grow bigger.

By 2019, IMF estimates that China's economy will be 22,4 trillion USD (PPP). The U.S. economy 22 trillion USD (PPP), while the Russian economy will be 3,27 trillion USD (PPP).

So, to sum this up, official Russian sources are expecting 0,5% growth for 2014.

The war for Ukraine is going to continue and you can be sure that the U.S. and the EU will use everything they can to bring Russia further down because of Donbass.

They will shell Donetsk and Luhansk to ruins. Then if Kiev regime doesn't take Crimea, or Tiraspol for that matter, you can be use they'll take over Gagauz. And Romania absorbing the majority of Moldova into NATO and EU.

And it will be Belarus and Armenia' turn after that.

Like mentioned, I rather get a growth, in a nation with little debt, than a Recession with overinflated debt like EU.  http://www.eudebtclock.org/

As well, Russia is the resource rich nation.  One thing that many do not mention is that Russia's major export besides oil and gas to EU is metals, which EU uses in order to build the equipment they sell back to Russia.  If lets say that increases costs twofold, then they have no choice but to pay that money regardless if they want to keep their industrialization.  Russia on the other hand is turning back to an Agrarian nation.

Belarus and Armenia will be a hard one to choke on, since Russian troops are stationed their and majority of Armenians are pro Russian.  Time will tell, but EU is begging for this to stop already: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-16/anti-putin-alliance-fraying-germany-slovenia-greece-czech-republic-urge-end-russian-

BTW, Japan of all countries still pushes sanctions, even though they hit a recession of -7%

BTW, you are wrong because you said weakening of the Russian economy or as far as recession, but if growth happened, then that is still strengthening of the economy.  Clear difference.

As well, estimations are garbage, because people expected Russia to increase 4% every year for the next 10 years, about a couple years ago. Same with the fact no one saw this happening and as well, predicted Euro to be main trading currency. Look how that turned out.

PPP predictions for Russia actually grew. Alike with its GDP per capita also grew, something that is changing here in the west.

It seems that the only war we are losing is the war against the trolls. Everyday we have a new one.

I don't know if this has been posted already but:

'Buy firewood & coal': MP warns Ukrainians after US, EU get access to national gas pipes

The decision by the Ukrainian parliament to allow companies from the US and EU to co-manage the country’s gas pipelines could lead to the country being left with no gas supplies in the coming winter, an MP has warned in an emotional online address.

Nikolay Rudkovsky, an independent MP in Ukraine’s Verkhovna Rada, believes the law allowing 49 percent of Ukraine’s national gas transportation system (GTS) to be managed by foreign companies is a big mistake.

“People, my advice to you is: buy firewood and coal! After the Law on reforming the management system of the united gas transportation system of Ukraine (#4116) was passed today, our country has been left with almost no chances of staying with gas,” Rudkovsky said on Facebook, following the Rada session.

“Don’t the MPs understand that we are now guaranteed to have a winter with no heating?” he asked.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28801353

Hungary's conservative Prime Minister Viktor Orban says the EU is harming itself by imposing sanctions on Russia, describing the measures as "shooting oneself in the foot".

He was speaking after his Slovak counterpart, Robert Fico, had also criticised the EU sanctions.

Russia is Hungary's main trading partner outside the EU. Both Hungary and Slovakia depend on Russian gas.

The EU says Russia must stop supporting armed separatists in Ukraine.

Speaking on Hungary's Kossuth Radio, Mr Orban said "the sanctions policy pursued by the West... causes more harm to us than to Russia.

"In politics, this is called shooting oneself in the foot."

EU sanctions are now restricting Russian state access to Western loans, and blocking exports of defence-related equipment to Russia. EU exports of oil industry technology to Russia are also banned, but not gas-related equipment.

The EU, US and several other Western countries have also blacklisted dozens of senior Russian officials - many of them close to President Vladimir Putin - and firms accused of helping the pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.

Russia retaliated by banning a wide range of imported Western food.

The real question is, how long will EU survive? Seems that no one can agree with Brussles and things are not looking rosy.

Hannibal Barca wrote:It seems that the only war we are losing is the war against the trolls. Everyday we have a new one.

Many of our trolls are well-intentioned ones.

Of course, at the same time I very much agree with the aphorism that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

We probably need a set of written guidelines, for the forum, of how not to be a well-intentioned troll. Of course, we have one rule already, and that is the one prohibiting the use of any Wikipedia "content" in the forum.