PAK DP prospective long-range interceptor

GarryB wrote:Hypersonic speed, very high altitude capability and large missiles would make satellites vulnerable to this sort of aircraft too.

And that is when unmanned pilot cockpit come into use. At extreme condition like that it is much safer to not have a human inside the aircraft.

W/o the human pilot people can explore various kind of extreme flying techniques (sea skimming at M4, M5, for example) which a human doesn't dare to do.

higurashihougi wrote:

GarryB wrote:Hypersonic speed, very high altitude capability and large missiles would make satellites vulnerable to this sort of aircraft too.

And that is when unmanned pilot cockpit come into use. At extreme condition like that it is much safer to not have a human inside the aircraft.

W/o the human pilot people can explore various kind of extreme flying techniques (sea skimming at M4, M5, for example) which a human doesn't dare to do.

So we still have some time ahead until deep learning is a workable technology and we are just about to create Skynet

Rmf wrote:i see no reason for supersonic interceptor if you have supercruising  pak-fa. maybe some enhanced version of pak-fa with less stealth, no lerx , standard inlets ,round nozzles etc...

nontheless but people responsible professionally for Russia´s AF see this reason

gaurav wrote: Well in these days of financial crunch and overloading Industry specially the aviation Industry. Russia simply does not have the resources to build the infrastructure of MIG 41 and SU(6th gen )simultaneoulsy.

Hmmm so Putin/Shoigu and RuAF experts know about economy and army needs less than you? with all respect due does not sound convincing

gaurav wrote:
The investment needed to build near hypersonic (high altitude interceptor, space iterceptor , ground bombing(using near hypersonic) , shock attack  missions on land, sea (using near hypersonic)) would be like 20 billion dollars at an exchange rate of 65 rubles/usd.

We are now talking about 2 parallel investments in Sukhoi and MIG.This is preposterous. No body in sane mind would go for this.

Not sure where did you get those USD 20 billions  from - a source perhaps? Name MiG-51 is from whom? which  of RuAF generals mentioned this name?

as for MiG-41 article I quoted says parts for MiG-41 are already being produced now.
MiG-41 is I´d say something like Mig-35  or Su-35 upgrade. Much more effective plane based or reworked existing and proven airframe.


6yh gen fighter is years until goes series (around 2030?) and we do not know for sure what requirements will be there.

Apparently, I read somewhere that MiG-31 was ridiculously expensive for its time. SoSomething along the lines of one of the most expensive jets in the world. Wouldn't surprise me either due to its capabilities.

sepheronx wrote:Apparently, I read somewhere that MiG-31 was ridiculously expensive for its time.  SoSomething along the lines of one of the most expensive jets in the world. Wouldn't surprise me either due to its capabilities.

Speed alone simply enforced usage of titanium. If MiG-41 is to be even faster up to 5000km/h then air friction heating can got up around 1000K...then new set of materials are required

The MiG-25 and MiG-31 are expensive aircraft to buy and to operate.

They burn enormous amounts of fuel for each flight at high speed and their engine life means they go through quite a few even if properly operated within parameters.

The MiG-25 was mostly steel as this was cheap and the mesh around the engines to help cool them were made of silver rather than gold... silver was cheaper even if not as effective.

The MiG-31 introduced titanium in certain high temp areas on the air frame but is still a heavy aircraft.

the only more expensive aircraft to operate was the SR-71 which cost a small fortune.

If it was just about the money then a variant of the Su-34 with an interceptor focus and a dedicated air to air radar of large size could have easily replaced the MiG-31 in every area except top speed.

Important question ;

If we have  the prospective air complex of frontline aviation PAK-FA , with super cruising capabilities
, stealthy  with high manoverability why  Russia  direct money to ward MIG-41  instead of developing single  complex that compines both features of longe range interceptor  with multi role fighter , athough such project might be very complex and demanding in term of R&D but the cost will be the same If Russia built two separate projects .



May be  the industrial lobby  has the final word

Its a matter of also giving contracts to Mikoyan, not to just Sukhoi. Sukhoi has obtained majority of contracts for both domestic and export, making them huge and a growing monopoly, something I don't think the MoD specifically wants. So in a method of giving contracts to Mikoyan, it will be programs like this interceptor and MiG-35 that will more or less help the company out.

NEURONAV wrote:Important question ;

If we have  the prospective air complex of frontline aviation PAK-FA , with super cruising capabilities
, stealthy  with high manoverability why  Russia  direct money to ward MIG-41  instead of developing single  complex that compines both features of longe range interceptor  with multi role fighter , athough  such project might be  very complex and demanding in term of R&D but the cost will be the same If Russia built two separate projects .

because PAK FA has different requirements then PAK DP? Interceptor has to be really fast and to have big range.
Mig-41 does not to have to be stealth or agile, needs to quick fly over Siberia to welcome US guests (like hypersonic drones...).
Speed, ceiling, range and pay load counts.

Weight of MiG-31 is about 50% bigger then PAK-FA.

BTW F-35 is universal plane built around requirements for 3-4 machines?

You're right ! Due to requirement of high speed the Mig-41 RAM coating will not withstand the high temperature. But this is true fore certain extent , for example coating the RAM coating material with radioleucent thermostable material my solve the problem of high temperature .

Although I'm not a fan of American aerospace tech. , but I think that F-35 is excellent solution for the united state instead of building 2 or 3 diffrent planes for there requirement , F-35 still unmatured , when completed it will has significant military importance

Work on high temp RAM coating is already begin

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259512482_A_high-temperature_radar_absorbing_structure_Design_fabrication_and_characterization

NEURONAV wrote:You're right ! Due to requirement of high speed the   Mig-41 RAM coating will not withstand the high temperature. But this is true fore certain extent , for example coating the RAM coating material with radioleucent thermostable material my solve the problem of high temperature .

Although I'm not a fan of American aerospace tech. , but I think that F-35 is excellent solution for the united state instead of building 2 or 3 diffrent  planes  for  there requirement , F-35 still unmatured , when completed  it will has significant military importance

The F-35 will never be an interceptor, it will never be a multi-role fighter, it will never be reliably carrier capable, it will never be a CAS aircraft, and it will certainly never be a strategic bomber. It's an abomination, a frankenstein of the US MIC, and an absolute failure in every sense of the word. It will, eventually, be quietly consigned to the dust pile just like the F-22.

The problem with the F-35 is it is small.

The problem with stealth aircraft... proper ones that is, is that they have to carry all their weapons internally to actually remain stealthy so a small plane has a pathetic payload.

The other problem is that it is trying to be too many different designs... if they took away the requirement for it to be a Harrier replacement it would be a much better design with more internal weapons and fuel capacity.

It will also likely be rather more expensive than the bigger fighters it is operating with... which again means there is no point in making it small and limiting its performance...

I hate this stealth bla bla...!

A jet with radar ON is never stealth! A F-35 with active radar seeking is so stealth like a lighthouse at night. A interceptor must be fast, should have an outstanding radar and good maneuverability (the cream on top of it).

Stealth is good to sneak behind enemy lines. It can be a advantage in the case of the operational profile for the F-22, passive radar seeking, data link and so on. The operational profile for the Mig-41 requires not really stealth, maybe it will get some stealth characteristics (better to have it, than not to have them) but it will be only weak stealth characteristisc, based on shape and RAM coating for high temperature (no foam, polymere, carbon based stuff). Weak stealth characteristic is ok, it means not wasting too much money for it, better putting the money in other characteristics.

NEURONAV wrote: Work on high temp RAM coating is already begin

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259512482_A_high-temperature_radar_absorbing_structure_Design_fabrication_and_characterization

Nice

Svetlana Savitskaya: KLA is working on a new generation MiG-41

Svetlana Savitskaya:

United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) is actively working on the development of high-speed high-altitude interceptor new generation MiG-41

I feel instead of new interceptor they should develop a new Single Engine LMFS that is cheaper than PAK-FA and that can be sold widely in export market like F-16 or Mig-21 bread and butter fighter.

Russia should have something that can compete with JSF in the market and that is not heavy as PAK-FA

Austin wrote:I feel instead of new interceptor they should develop a new Single Engine LMFS that is cheaper than PAK-FA and that can be sold widely in export market like F-16 or Mig-21 bread and butter fighter.

Russia should have something that can compete with JSF in the market and that is not heavy as PAK-FA

MiG-41 must have priority over LMFS. MiG-41 is to defend homeland from US led aggression over thousands of kilometers in northern and eastern regions.

Besides AFAIK MiG is working on LMFS kind of plane based on MiG-35

Yes... working on both makes a lot of sense.

In my opinion the light 5th gen fighter should have as a priority to have the capacity to carry an enormous amount of external stores in the non stealth loadout, while able to carry a good compliment of air to air weapons in stealthy mode.

At the start of a conflict it needs to be able to beat off a stealth attack/cruise missile attack. Once it has achieved that then the threat will come from less stealthy threats for which a large payload of weapons makes more sense than stealthiness.

The MiG-41 as fast interceptor is a very interesting project that I expect becomes real in a few years. I liked very much the news in the reports.

I think this project is more important for Russia than a light fighter (Russia has still variants of the MiG-29 in production).

For me the four most important projects for the Russian air warfare until 2025 would be:

- MiG-41 (over Mach 4.0)
- Tu-PAK-DA (supersonic strategic bomber)
- Yak-135 (supersonic trainer and light combat aircraft for export)
- IL-PAK-TA (supersonic transport)

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Austin wrote:I feel instead of new interceptor they should develop a new Single Engine LMFS that is cheaper than PAK-FA and that can be sold widely in export market like F-16 or Mig-21 bread and butter fighter.

Russia should have something that can compete with JSF in the market and that is not heavy as PAK-FA

MiG-41 must have priority over LMFS.  MiG-41 is to defend homeland from US led aggression over thousands of kilometers in northern and eastern regions.

Besides AFAIK MiG is working on LMFS kind of plane based on MiG-35

I also think the MiG-41 must have priority over the LMFS. First because it looking to replace a veteran aircraft, that it is alone in its cathegory. The MiG-41 is the future of an entire cathegory in the military armament. Also because this is a project that means technological advance. And finally because being well done it would improve the band image of MiG as a technological leader in the military aviation industry.

The four most important brands in the history of the Russian aviation have been:

Yakovlev
MiG
Ilyushin
Mil

and Russia must care of them with the other living brands with lower historical production that have a future of their own:

Tupolev
Sukhoi
Kamov

LMFS will have major value only if it ends up being single engine low cost fighter, somewhat like J-10 is in China. If they again just make redesign of MiG-35 it wont be very interesting to RuAF, maybe Navy in some small quantities. Russia needs low cost single seater to build up flying hours, to increase number of available aircraft...

I also think the MiG-41 must have priority over the LMFS. First because it looking to replace a veteran aircraft, that it is alone in its cathegory. The MiG-41 is the future of an entire cathegory in the military armament. Also because this is a project that means technological advance. And finally because being well done it would improve the band image of MiG as a technological leader in the military aviation industry.

Mig-41 won't be a success in the exoport market. No one will bought them (maybe China ??). On the other side a light 5th gen Mig will. They are losing all their clients and Mig-35 will not be exported in many numbers as it's a 4 gen fighter that came in the game when countries are buying 5 gen fighters, Su-30 series are bought instead, look at Algeria. And now with the J-35 it will be harder to sell to even poor countries.

Russia won't also be able to buy Sukhois and Migs. At the time of Mig-29 and Su-27, the first one was very cheap while the second one better but expensive. Now that you an put pretty much the same techno in both, the Mig-29/35 isn't cheap at all and it's capabilities are worst in every way to Pak-fa Su-35.

The Mig-41 is wast of time, Mig-31 BM is good enough and they can still produce them and keep upgrading them, it's a very big and powerfull Aircraft so no problem to put new technologies in it. Like you said they are there to counter US missiles, I don't think there will be a war between them, they are not crazy.

MLFS could be very good for export. Inida is planning to start a new competition for 200 light fighters, they also need new carrier based fighter for their CATOBAR carrier, Egypt is looking for new relations and not be militarly dependent on US, Phillipines are turning over Russia instead of US, African countries's situation is going to be better as the world's economy is growing. So yes I think a cheap MLFS should be prioritised instead of Mig-41.

Isos wrote:

I also think the MiG-41 must have priority over the LMFS. First because it looking to replace a veteran aircraft, that it is alone in its cathegory. The MiG-41 is the future of an entire cathegory in the military armament. Also because this is a project that means technological advance. And finally because being well done it would improve the band image of MiG as a technological leader in the military aviation industry.

Mig-41 won't be a success in the exoport market. No one will bought them (maybe China ??). On the other side a light 5th gen Mig will. They are losing all their clients and Mig-35 will not be exported in many numbers as it's a 4 gen fighter that came in the game when countries are buying 5 gen fighters, Su-30 series are bought instead, look at Algeria. And now with the J-35 it will be harder to sell to even poor countries.

Russia won't also be able to buy Sukhois and Migs. At the time of Mig-29 and Su-27, the first one was very cheap while the second one better but expensive. Now that you an put pretty much the same techno in both, the Mig-29/35 isn't cheap at all and it's capabilities are worst in every way to Pak-fa Su-35.

The Mig-41 is wast of time, Mig-31 BM is good enough  and they can still produce them and keep upgrading them, it's a very big and powerfull Aircraft so no problem to put new technologies in it. Like you said they are there to counter US missiles, I don't think there will be a war between them, they are not crazy.

MLFS could be very good for export. Inida is planning to start a new competition for 200 light fighters, they also need new carrier based fighter for their CATOBAR carrier, Egypt is looking for new relations and not be militarly dependent on US, Phillipines are turning over Russia instead of US, African countries's situation is going to be better as the world's economy is growing. So yes I think a cheap MLFS should be prioritised instead of Mig-41.

There is a question about "military supremacy" that it is necessary to take into account and would affect to both the MiG-41 and the 5th generation light fighter.

I do not think Russia would want to export an avanced technology weapon like the MiG-41. But also, I do not think Russia would want to export a 5 generation small aircraft in decades. Maybe only to China and India and not inmediately nor in big amounts. The reason is that they would make harder the Russian defense if present in other countries. Some weapons are not for export, they are to make a difference over other countries and contribute building brand name for the manufacturer and for the country. With the end of the Soviet Union many countries inherited the same aircrafts and weapons that Russia had, but this is an historic anomaly and Russia is rebuilding the logical difference between the regional powers (poles in a multipolar world) and its neighbors. Russia is just creating now a technological gap again.

The US acts the same way.

Today the export of the Su-30 is at the begin. The export of the Su-35 is far still. Russia will not put in the market another aircraft that damages their sales offering higher technological level at lower price. Who wants high technology must pay it, and the weight of the aircraft will have not have an effect in the price of the aircraft. It only happens in the side of the lower technological level, where the MiG-29/35 begins to be. For higher technological level, the interest of Russia is before the interest of the countries that want some aircraft like this. And it makes the light 5th generation aircraft a little redundant for Russia.

Looking at the future, I think the Su-30 and the Su-35 will be less affected by the presence of smaller fighters of other countries in the market, because unlike in the case of the Su-27 and the MiG-29 they offer the multirole capability, where the size and payload for groupd attack weapons is also important. But despite it, I tend to think that the MiG-35 or a fighter variant of the Yak-130 will try to be over the small aircrafts of other countries but under the Su-30. This what Russia would be ready to offer actually in the market for small fighters. Not more.

They already offer Pak fa for the export. They were ready to give the Su-35 to Australia. Of course they won't export their top technology. Russian make always an export version which has pretty much nothing to do with the domestic variant.

Of course they will export the new mig, Mig-41 or LMFA, they are near the bankrupt. Since the issue with Algerian Migs, no country has bought them. Egypt is buying from every one because they need independence from US supllies and pressure.

Su-30/35 won't be exported in the future. Countries which can buy this type of fighter will go for Pak Fa, F-35, J-35. Look at all the 5 gen fighter projects that are done (Japan, US, Russia, China, FR-Germany's future aircraft).

Don't think because one of your exported aircrafts could be taken and studied by US, it will affect your defence. Now you can design an F-15 in CAD software and see it's limits. The electronics, radars and IFF, are not the same.

Isos wrote:They already offer Pak fa for the export. They were ready to give the Su-35 to Australia. Of course they won't export their top technology. Russian make always an export version which has pretty much nothing to do with the domestic variant.

Of course they will export the new mig, Mig-41 or LMFA, they are near the bankrupt. Since the issue with Algerian Migs, no country has bought them. Egypt is buying from every one because they need independence from US supllies and pressure.

Su-30/35 won't be exported in the future. Countries which can buy this type of fighter will go for Pak Fa, F-35, J-35. Look at all the 5 gen fighter projects that are done (Japan, US, Russia, China, FR-Germany's future aircraft).

Don't think because one of your exported aircrafts could be taken and studied by US, it will affect your defence. Now you can design an F-15 in CAD software and see it's limits. The electronics, radars and IFF, are not the same.

Su-35 for Australia was more of a hoax than a real possibility. Also "pretty much nothing" is too harash term to be used, downgraded yes, but less and less though time. MKI is even today best variant of Su-30 there is. Majority of new equipment that Russia is fielding was exported before it reached service in Russian forces. Things changed since Soviet Union.

Dramatic reduction in capabilities of export models today cant pass on market, noone will buy third rate downgraded junk anymore if he has any possibility to choose. Why do you think Indians wanted Israeli-french avionics in MKI? Because what Russians offered simply wasnt good enough and prices were more or less same.

Wont comment on CAD thing, its funny

Isos wrote:They already offer Pak fa for the export. They were ready to give the Su-35 to Australia. Of course they won't export their top technology. Russian make always an export version which has pretty much nothing to do with the domestic variant.

Of course they will export the new mig, Mig-41 or LMFA, they are near the bankrupt. Since the issue with Algerian Migs, no country has bought them. Egypt is buying from every one because they need independence from US supllies and pressure.

Su-30/35 won't be exported in the future. Countries which can buy this type of fighter will go for Pak Fa, F-35, J-35. Look at all the 5 gen fighter projects that are done (Japan, US, Russia, China, FR-Germany's future aircraft).

Don't think because one of your exported aircrafts could be taken and studied by US, it will affect your defence. Now you can design an F-15 in CAD software and see it's limits. The electronics, radars and IFF, are not the same.

I think no-one of the three, Russia, China and the US will export really their new aircrafts of 5th generation in maybe 15 years, except to very close allies. And the criteria for their sale will be of military interest for them more than economic. The 5th generation fighters will not be something that will be of free access in many years.

At same time the technological level reached is too high to be achieved by smaller countries that still have some aircraft industry. Only India and Japan seems to be doing serious efforts, and India would act exactly like Russia, China and the US. Japan is 10 years away from begin its own procurement, and even in a joint effort, I do not think Europe by their own will achieve this technological level in about 15 years. It means the external pressure over the new 5th generation aircrafts of the world powers will be very low in at least 15-20 years, and as consequence these three countries will dominate the market of the 5th generation fighters for long time.

All it means that there is still room for the 4th generation aircrafts to export. The Su-35 will be the aircraft desired by many for long time. Even the Su-30. And many countries will purchase them because they will not have other thing better to buy.

This is likely the technological environment where the MiG-41 will begin its life around 2025.