The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

Flyingdutchman wrote:

Feldmarszal wrote:There are some Frenchmen too, from what I've heared. Does that mean France declared war on the Ukraine? The only difference I see is that Russia is a lot closer than France.

No, but i did i say Russia declared war?
No one can deny that there are Russians in ukraine, ALOT.

Mike E wrote:

TheGeorgian wrote:

Vann7 wrote:

Petro007 wrote:
....Napoleon .... WW2

Man reading this makes every historian either hurt inside or grin ....

Like you can't simply come up with "Russia defeated Napoleon - who wiped whole of Europe" just like that .... as if Russians weren't buttkicked from the European battlefield straight back to where they came from. Up until Borodino, most engagements between French and Russian Empire ended up with Russian army defeated or retreating. Borodino was a retreat too. What defeated Napoleon in the end, wasn't Russian army, but his overambitious plans, at that point he was already delusional enough to not care about his men anymore - related to Russian winter and supply shortage. Just a quarter of his original army he gathered for the invasion was present at Borodino. Half his troops defected or died by sickness. Yeah, there was some partisan action like Davydov, Kudashev etc that were constantly stinging Napoleon's army, but really that wasn't so decicive + it was mostly during their retreat. Russians would have been better off if they had someone like Suvorov leading their army ....

About WWII. It were not 8 friggin million German troops LOL, it were something around 3.4 - 4.5 ( latter one in mid-war period ) million, including Romanian, Italian, Finnish, Hungarian etc. More or less ~ 3 million were actual Germans. If it were 8 million troops, they would have won. Soviets had less troops, but 5 times as many tanks, aircraft and artillery. If Germans really had twice as much like you claim, the war would have been over in no time.

THINK...BEFORE...POST... - That should become a rule or something.

I'm not going to talk about Napoleon because that was so far in the past... Mentioning him is a joke (to all sides, not only you). Russia now cannot be compared with Russia then, plain and simple. It would be like comparing the US militia during the Revolutionary Way to their current forces, they are completely different.

Let me mention that I historically love WW2, and that I've always been fascinated with Nazi Germany (by no means a neo-Nazi). Troops had nothing to do with why Germany lost, at all. They were so focused on building "big offense" that they completely blanked out when it came to what they needed most, defense. Just look at what an idiot Hitler really was... He wanted tanks the size of small buildings, cannons the height of hills, and numbers that only the Allies could muster. In my honest opinion, German could've won the war with more preparation, smarter generals and leaders, better defense, and by not waking up the Soviet bear. Another thing to keep in mind is their bad favoritism towards weapons they didn't need. Hitler and top officials mothballed the Me 262 for ~1 year due to the success of the 109 in Poland. That one year was crucial, and would've meant a faster development, and another 700-1000 jets in the air by the end of the war. Even the now legendary Tiger tanks were a mistake, as Panthers were not only superior in most aspects, but easier to make, cheaper, and much, much more reliable (even then they were maintenance hogs compared with the Sherman's and T-34's). What could be their worst mistake when it came to their weapons, was, believe it or not, Hitlers doubts about U-boats. Earlier in the war, he wanted large and heavy surface ships, but in reality they needed more U-boats. Admiral Dörnitz eventually got top Nazi officials on board, but it was still too late. That time would've meant less money wasted, more time murdering Allied ships with their subs, and more subs in the waters. I know it may seem like the Nazis were all for the boats, but trust me when I say that wasn't true in the beginning! Anyway, back to the topic of troops. The Nationality of the troops doesn't mean thing, as long as they fit the requirements and got the same training, they would be just as good. Don't forget that the Soviets also had a mix of nationalities in the Red Army, so if it really means all that much to you..... Besides, Germany didn't have the money or resources to support many more troops, never-mind more armored divisions to back them up... The Soviets did have a larger amount of troops (I don't know how you think otherwise) and many more amor divisions, artillery divisions, and even more access to oil. Germany, for the most part, had superior weapon technology. However, their tech was often unreliable, was incapable of getting through Russian land, and was very expensive. Many people said that they should've built more numbers of smaller vehicles, but they didn't have the resources to do so. Even if they had "eight million troops", they still wouldn't of won.... WW2 showed that vehicles were the new king of the battlefield, and the Eastern Front was no exception.  

To sum it up, Nazi Germany was to small a country to maintain a large empire! Troops aren't going to change that.

Mike E wrote:

Flyingdutchman wrote:

Feldmarszal wrote:There are some Frenchmen too, from what I've heared. Does that mean France declared war on the Ukraine? The only difference I see is that Russia is a lot closer than France.

No, but i did i say Russia declared war?
No one can deny that there are Russians in ukraine, ALOT.

Dutchy, don't let that propaganda get to your head... You are better than that!

Russia is/has supported the rebels, but that is a good thing, and that also doesn't mean they are "INVADING" the Ukraine. Some whack job satellite picture doesn't change that, and neither do lies... If you didn't read my comment (should be only a couple up), please do. The West has been outraged by Russia dropping the all-mighty Petrodollar, and that is the real reason for the "INVASION" crap being spewed.

Mike E wrote:
Now for real, there are thousands of troops in Ukraine, RUSSIAN troops, the separatist leader even says he is supported by 3 to 4 thousand Russian troops!!

If it isn't an invasion then what is it? wrote:

TheGeorgian wrote:Well it is at least suspicious when the rebels have to hold 3 major cities and several dozen villages with only 10-20.000 men and suddenly out of nowhere a third front has been opened towards Mariupol, rooting very close from the border to Russia. I mean, you have to understand why people assume the worst, an incursion from the Russian main land. Ukrainian forces claim they've been engaging Russian army units. Something like that hasn't occured yet, despite heavy accusations of Russian soldiers being involved. Nobody came up with saying "there are regular Russian army units we're fighting". This all happens simutanously. Sure, without evidences you can't simply be right. Same with every single pro-Russian source or official statement about this. In this case pro-Russian separatists are the attacking force, so you can automaticaly rule out any valid information coming from official sources like Moscow. ( like it or not, I know that some immature kids here will downvote me again for this   ) Information will pop up from the locals and fighters themselves over time, some video material, more precise information will be leaked etc like it's happening all the time in this conflict. So let's wait and see.

btw, I recently stumbled upon this. I don't know how trustworthy or valid it is, but it supposedly shows two destroyed Russian MTLBs ( here they say it are BMDs .... journalists   ) Dead soldiers are in Russian digital camo, Ukranian guy is holding up a badly burned AS Val and helmets.
http://censor.net.ua/photo_news/299938/unichtojennye_v_ukraine_rossiyiskie_desantniki_fotoreportaj/sortby/tree/order/desc/page/4#comments

Flyingdutchman wrote:

Mike E wrote:

Flyingdutchman wrote:

Feldmarszal wrote:There are some Frenchmen too, from what I've heared. Does that mean France declared war on the Ukraine? The only difference I see is that Russia is a lot closer than France.

No, but i did i say Russia declared war?
No one can deny that there are Russians in ukraine, ALOT.

Dutchy, don't let that propaganda get to your head... You are better than that!

Russia is/has supported the rebels, but that is a good thing, and that also doesn't mean they are "INVADING" the Ukraine. Some whack job satellite picture doesn't change that, and neither do lies... If you didn't read my comment (should be only a couple up), please do. The West has been outraged by Russia dropping the all-mighty Petrodollar, and that is the real reason for the "INVASION" crap being spewed.

If it isn't an invasion then what is it?

Feldmarszal wrote:

Flyingdutchman wrote:

Mike E wrote:

Flyingdutchman wrote:

Feldmarszal wrote:There are some Frenchmen too, from what I've heared. Does that mean France declared war on the Ukraine? The only difference I see is that Russia is a lot closer than France.

No, but i did i say Russia declared war?
No one can deny that there are Russians in ukraine, ALOT.

Dutchy, don't let that propaganda get to your head... You are better than that!

Russia is/has supported the rebels, but that is a good thing, and that also doesn't mean they are "INVADING" the Ukraine. Some whack job satellite picture doesn't change that, and neither do lies... If you didn't read my comment (should be only a couple up), please do. The West has been outraged by Russia dropping the all-mighty Petrodollar, and that is the real reason for the "INVASION" crap being spewed.

If it isn't an invasion then what is it?

You should ask the americans, they've got lots of words for that. Intervention, peacekeeping mission, military advisory support, anti-terrorist operation (shelling of cities by Ukrainian artillery is de facto terrorism, cause it terrorizes), down to the less formal ones, like flag-waving or establishing foreign military bases. Take your pick, they've got politically correct terms for everything, from dropping nukes to taking a crap.

Flyingdutchman wrote:Now for real, there are thousands of troops in Ukraine, RUSSIAN troops, the separatist leader even says he is supported by 3 to 4 thousand Russian troops!!

No, but i did i say Russia declared war?
No one can deny that there are Russians in ukraine, ALOT.

TheGeorgian wrote:

Vann7 wrote:

Petro007 wrote:
....Napoleon .... WW2

THINK...BEFORE...POST... - That should become a rule or something.

TheGeorgian wrote:

Mike E wrote:

TheGeorgian wrote:

Vann7 wrote:

Petro007 wrote:
....Napoleon .... WW2

THINK...BEFORE...POST... - That should become a rule or something.

I AGREE

But the question was about size of German Wehrmacht attacking the USSR. I didn't go into detail by purpose and just corrected his mistake. If Germans had THAT many troops as he claims attacking the Soviet Union, they would have automaticaly had THAT many resources to actualy do that which wasn't the case. You can't simply start a war sending 8 million troops into another country without having the logistics, sufficient food, ammunition, cloth, material and vehicles. They would need twice as much of that stuff and if they had that much they wold have won without doubt. Now that he tries to correct himself saying there was a total of 8 million troops the USSR engaged in their own country AND in Germany etc. Now that is a totaly different thing. He and a lot of other people take such figures without further consideration. Logical thought processing. Yes Soviet Union maybe engaged a total of 8 million enemies in the course of war. But you put it like Soviets were confronted by 8 million troops which is utter nonsense. You see the difference between 2-3-4 million Soviet troops fighting 2 million Germans, afterwards 1 million Germans, then 800.000 Germans .... etc you get the point .... up until they reach Berlin AND 2-3-4 million Soviet troops fighting 8 million Germans ? Yes that is a friggin mighty difference. Besides that you also have to take into consideration that the quality of German troops was decreasing and decreasing by each engagement while the quality of Soviet forces was actualy increasing. Germans sent their best troops over 3 million Wehrmacht and SS into the USSR and some 2.5 million got killed including their finest men. At that point Soviets were battle hardened veterans already and had the complete material OVERKILL. Germany was allready totaly outgunned from the start eventhough they had the momentum and overran the first few Russian armies which abandomed or lost most of their equipment without a fight. Yes attacking the USSR with your attention also shifted towards Africa, Great Britain, France, Baltics etc, stretching your entire army over the entire continent ..... was the most stupid idea ever.

Sorry for offtopic.

Mike E wrote:
Somebody has never heard of success... Their strategy has been improving every second, hence the advancements. Never mind just how bad UKR's tactics have been... They claim that crap because they are the "sworn enemies" of Russia. You might as well say that South Korea is terrorizing NK, with that info coming from the Pyongyang newspaper.... Funny how you actually fall for it! No wonder "people are down voting you" (that means nothing, by the way). Please stop being a hypocrite, and realize that the unelected neo-Nazi regime junta is the "attacking force". Just look at how Porky-pig-agoin'-toshank-u is throwing out the already unofficial parliament, for one that is even further rapped around his fingers! That is what I like to call good ole' western fascism, errrr, western "democracy"!

TheGeorgian wrote:

Mike E wrote:
Somebody has never heard of success... Their strategy has been improving every second, hence the advancements. Never mind just how bad UKR's tactics have been... They claim that crap because they are the "sworn enemies" of Russia. You might as well say that South Korea is terrorizing NK, with that info coming from the Pyongyang newspaper.... Funny how you actually fall for it! No wonder "people are down voting you" (that means nothing, by the way). Please stop being a hypocrite, and realize that the unelected neo-Nazi regime junta is the "attacking force". Just look at how Porky-pig-agoin'-toshank-u is throwing out the already unofficial parliament, for one that is even further rapped around his fingers! That is what I like to call good ole' western fascism, errrr, western "democracy"!

Nobody is falling for anything and it's definitly not funny. With stretching your mere 10-20.000 troops over 3 fronts .... ? that's physicaly impossible. Either I have to assume that Ukrainian army has completly dissapeared from the scene or the seps are performing some other magical feats. It's not like Russians are new to supporting separatists and they never used the same tactics. My assumption is that the 3rd front has been opened via Russia, but it are not regular Russian army units, rather a few thousand more volunteers with Novarossii patches on their shoulders and maybe supplied with Ukrainian stuff from Crimea. At this point, everything is possible.

I don't realy care about what political nonsense is going on in the background. I am merely interested in the actual military events. That's why I'm not respond to any these political crap.

Airbornewolf wrote:

Flyingdutchman wrote:

Mike E wrote:The western propaganda industry is out in full force... Go to a single MSM site, and you will want to kill yourself! Half of the articles are "RUSSIA INVADES UKRAINE" or "RUSSIAN ARMORED DIVISIONS SPOTTED IN UKRAINE" etc, it is absolutely terrible! They don't have a single piece of good evidence, but they just go ahead and spew crappy propaganda... Also, I've noticed that it has gotten a lot worse now that the "Gazprom wants Ruble and Yuan" articles have been out. - Deja vu to when Saddam jumped on the Euro, and Gaddafi the gold Dinar, except for the fact that Russia is many times more powerful than those countries combined.

Now for real, there are thousands of troops in Ukraine, RUSSIAN troops, the separatist leader even says he is supported by 3 to 4 thousand Russian troops!!

well, NATO/Kiev got thousands of foreign western Mercs running around there in ukraine as well next to their neo-nazi death squads. personally im not losing any sleep if Russian nationals with combat experience are fighting on the side of the rebels. it kind off evens out things nicely.


the MSM is indeed sickening and riddled with hypocrisy and misinformation. to just point out one thing the MSM conviently shoved under the carpet here in the West is the MH-17 "hype".the West still has no flight data recordings released to the public, no radar data, still air control crew missing, and the west no longer seems interested in what "really" happened to the aircraft. the only ones that actually put effort into presenting real evidence are the Russian Ministry of Defense.

its only "russia is the evil bear awakened from its cold war sleep" rhetoric and has nothing to do with objective media reporting.

Werewolf wrote:
You don't get the entire situation right. Ukropy army is send as a meat grinder, they don't have any strategy, no air support, no resupply or any combined arms operations. They get moldy bread as food, they get only one supply of ammunition when they are send to fight and will most of the time not get any other supplies but leaving them to die. This all condition is wanted, because they don't want to end the conflict to soon, they need a conflict in russias backyard going for years to destabilize the country. This crap is not about ukraine it is only against Russia. A short conflict even the most inpactient people in russia could sit out, but a conflict that is designed to last for years, the critics against putin will rise even among hardcore supporters and that is the entire plan right now. They saw with provocations he will not invade and give US reason and oppurtunity to drag Russia in a moral killing war. The plan is to steer shit against Putin inside Russia for not acting while in the stupid west people are indoctrinated that Putin does everything to prevent the conflict from ending.

gregoire wrote:To thegeorgian.

I disagree. As you put it the aggression came from Russia. Kiev was about to take away some fundamental rights from the russian speaking population and they wanted nothing to do with it. They looked at how things went in Crimea and hoped for a similar peaceful solution by use of referendum. Kiev decided that they would not let this happen (even though russia already signaled that it would not accept novorossiya as it did with crimea).
As things stand now ukraine will be split in half. I do hope the likes of yatsenyuk, poroshenko and his henchmen will get what they deserve.

TheGeorgian wrote:

gregoire wrote:To thegeorgian.

I disagree. As you put it the aggression came from Russia. Kiev was about to take away some fundamental rights from the russian speaking population and they wanted nothing to do with it. They looked at how things went in Crimea and hoped for a similar peaceful solution by use of referendum. Kiev decided that they would not let this happen (even though russia already signaled that it would not accept novorossiya as it did with crimea).
As things stand now ukraine will be split in half. I do hope the likes of yatsenyuk, poroshenko and his henchmen will get what they deserve.

yeah yeah, Kiev was about to do this and that. Did it happen ? no it did not, so I can't prematurely judge about something that actualy didn't happen and you should avoid the same thing. You people are good in accusing and foreshadowing evil things coming from your opponents. People on the other side expect the same ugly things from you. So what's the use of debating about that ? exactly, absolutly none. Of course you can have your own view on that.

But fact is that Crimea was a strategic response to EU/USA removing Yanukovich and nothing else. Same coldly calculated move is this uprising now as I said earlier, to simply seal the deal with Crimea. That's it boy, that's geopolitics. Nobody cares about the avarage peasants desires.

For G-d's sake