NATO: Discussion and News

lancelot wrote:

Sujoy wrote:U.S Navy engineer arrested for selling classified information pertaining to nuclear submarines to France
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10513081/US-Navy-engineer-admits-selling-nuclear-submarine-secrets-foreign-country-turning-wife.html

He wanted to sell it to France. He sent data on the Virginia submarine propulsion system to the French Embassy and they turned his information in to the US FBI. From then on his contact was with an FBI special agent. Eventually he got arrested.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/10/jonathan-diana-toebbe-spy-trial-espionage.html

The idiot could of went to the Chinese Embassy and would of been safe. What a dumbass!

Isos wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

lancelot wrote:

Sujoy wrote:U.S Navy engineer arrested for selling classified information pertaining to nuclear submarines to France
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10513081/US-Navy-engineer-admits-selling-nuclear-submarine-secrets-foreign-country-turning-wife.html

He wanted to sell it to France. He sent data on the Virginia submarine propulsion system to the French Embassy and they turned his information in to the US FBI. From then on his contact was with an FBI special agent. Eventually he got arrested.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/10/jonathan-diana-toebbe-spy-trial-espionage.html

The idiot could of went to the Chinese Embassy and would of been safe. What a dumbass!

Chinese ambassy is under constant surveillance. As soon as you go there they have you in their database and look at your profil. A guy working on nuclear submarine hoing there will ring all the alarms and be arrested as soon as he goes out.

US embassies do these same shenanigans all over the world, and there's a thing called 'doubles' and 'look-a-likes' and the art of misdirection. Besides the FBI was contacted by the French Embassy to know what was going on, they haven't said the FBI were aware of this espionage prior the French Embassy informing them. His big mistake was not realizing France is a NATO member, a vassal and a colony of the United States.

Perhaps best to do as the Icelanders, create a military airfield or military/civil and let NATO use it.

Or tell them they are being ridiculous and use the billions they would have spent on F-16s or worse and pay your teachers and nurses more.

Oh those inconvenient documents squirreled away in archives with 30 year secrecy that they thought would be plenty long enough      

David P. Goldman
@davidpgoldman
·
Feb 18
Breaking: German press uncovers smoking-gun document from 1991 proving that Russia was promised no expansion of NATO eastwards in return for German reunification. This is all over German media -- haven't seen it elsewhere, yet.

Yandex from the German at https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article236986765/Nato-Osterweiterung-Archivfund-bestaetigt-Sicht-der-Russen.html

"We have made it clear that we will not extend NATO beyond the Elbe," wrote the German diplomat Jürgen Chrobog about a meeting of the USA, Great Britain, France and Germany in March 1991. This document confirms the Russian view on eastern enlargement.

A note from the British National Archives, which has only just emerged, supports the Russian claim that the West has violated promises made in 1990 by expanding NATO to the East. This is reported by the "Spiegel".

The US political scientist Joshua Shifrinson has found the document, which was previously classified as secret. It is about a meeting of the Political Directors of the Foreign Ministries of the USA, Great Britain, France and Germany in Bonn on March 6, 1991. The topic was the security of Poland and other Eastern European states. A Political Director heads the Political Department in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and is considered the closest adviser to the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

At the beginning of the 90s, Federal Chancellor Helmut Kohl and Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher (left) negotiated the terms of German unification and NATO's eastward expansion

Source: pa/dpa/Michael Jung

Bonn's representative Jürgen Chrobog stated at the time, according to the note: "We made it clear in the two-plus-four negotiations that we are not extending NATO beyond the Elbe. We cannot therefore offer NATO membership to Poland and the others.“

The British, French and Americans also rejected NATO membership for the Eastern Europeans. US Representative Raymond Seitz said: "We have made it clear to the Soviet Union – at two-plus-four- as well as other talks – that we will not take advantage of the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Eastern Europe.“ Two years later, the Americans corrected their policy.


EDIT

Moon of Alabama
@MoonofA
·
22h
In 1989/90 Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner said similar.
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

Then NATO expanded.

Two years later, the Americans corrected their policy.

Two years later they went back on their word and broke their promises...

Makes you think about new promises... Russia clearly needs to stop interacting with the west and just focus on the rest of the world and international law.

Bad enough they broke their word but now they lie about even making the promise.

Point lots of IRBMs and IRCMs in their direction with nuclear warheads and just keep them at arms length... when they move in to Ukraine and Georgia and Finland, just put a hair trigger and the biggest nukes they can make on those weapons and make it clear they will shoot first if they think they are in danger.

Here in Germany I have noticed a significant increase of aircraft flights including propeller and helicopter aircraft flying relatively low in the past few weeks. They are not jet fighters, but they might be surveillance aircraft. It seems very unlikely to me that they are suitable for a war against Russia, but in case of civil unrest the traitors in the German government might use them against their own population, e.g. when a supply crisis hits the country.
That is just my speculation, but apart from that it is quite terrifying to live in Europe these days with all the political failure, censorship and the propganda going on.

A classic comment. Sadly too true.

Middle East Observer 2
@ME_Observer_2
·
3h
Replying to
@SamRamani2

NATO is like a cyclone, every country it touches becomes rubble. From Lybia to Syria to Iraq to Yemen. NATO is the definition of death, misery, poverty, and famine. An alliance of global pirates and terrorists that brag about beheading and lynching foreign leaders on TV.

NATO is like a cyclone, every country it touches becomes rubble. From Lybia to Syria to Iraq to Yemen. NATO is the definition of death, misery, poverty, and famine. An alliance of global pirates and terrorists that brag about beheading and lynching foreign leaders on TV.

Yes, a defensive organisation that was under direct threat of invasion... from Libya and Syria and Iraq and Yemen... reminds me of that South Park episode where they go hunting and it is explained to the children that some animals are protected by law but that law does not apply if the animal is attacking you because you always have the right to self defence so every animal they come across they pretend is charging them from cute little bunny rabbits to squirrels and pretty much any other animal they come across.

The old we are the hammer so every problem is a nail type situation... except very few problems are actually nails.

A bit on the value, if any, of Article 5.

Authored by Dave DeCamp via AntiWar.com,

On Thursday, a group of Republicans introduced a bill in the House and Senate that would reaffirm NATO’s Article 5 does not override congressional war powers. The effort was led by Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) and Reps. Chip Roy (R-TX) and Warren Davidson (R-OH).

"I introduced a resolution reasserting that Article 5 of the NATO Treaty does not supersede Congress’s responsibility to declare war or authorize military force before engaging in hostilities," Paul wrote in Responsible Statecraft.

NATO’s Article 5 outlines mutual defense commitments of the 31-member alliance but does not automatically mean the US must intervene militarily if a NATO ally comes under attack.

"For decades, many legislators have incorrectly interpreted Article 5 as an obligation that unquestionably commits the United States to provide military support should a NATO ally be attacked," he wrote.

Article 5 states: "The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defense recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force."

Paul noted that while NATO members are required to assist each other in the event of an attack, military action is not mandated. "Furthermore, Article 11 of the NATO Treaty states that the provisions of the Treaty are to be carried out in accordance with each country’s respective constitutional processes," he wrote.

Meanwhile, from the neocon side of the GOP, a response:

The legislation Paul introduced would express that Article 5 does not "supersede the constitutional requirement that Congress declare war or authorize the use of military force prior to the United States engaging in hostilities.”

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/fierce-congressional-debate-over-whether-tactical-nuclear-attack-would-trigger-article-5

Rand Paul was a man backer of this? Wtf

He likely wants to ensure that if something stupid happens like the west allows Kiev to operate F-16s but they decide they are not safe to operate in the Ukraine so they will be based in Poland or Hungary or whereever that an F-16 flown in Ukrainian airspace attacking Russian targets is chased into Polish airspace gets shot down that Poland might claim it is under attack and demand the entire force of HATO come and defend it from Russian aggression, and western AWACS aircraft operating in Polish airspace directing F-16s might get shot down by Russian missiles too if they fly up and down the border and supply target information to Kievs forces.

I doubt Rand Paul or a lot of other US politicians want to get dragged into a nuclear war with Russia for any reason other than something critical to US interests and nothing in Europe is critical to US interests.

Media: Trump told the EU that the US would never help Europe under attack, 01.11.2024.

Former President Donald Trump told top European officials while still U.S. president that Washington would never help Europe if it were attacked, according to a senior European Union official.

According to Reuters, Thierry Breton, a French commissioner in charge of the European Union's (EU) internal market, said Trump made the remarks to European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen at the World Economic Forum in Davos in January 2020.

On Tuesday (9), Breton told what he remembered of the meeting of a panel discussion in Brussels and his comments generated harsh criticism of Trump on Wednesday (10).

"You need to understand that if Europe is under attack, we will never help and support you," Breton quoted Trump as saying during the Davos meeting. "By the way, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO] is dead and we are leaving, we will leave NATO," Trump also reportedly said, according to Breton.

The commissioner also recalled that the then President collected a defense "debt" from Germany worth$ 400 billion (about R$ 1,9 trillion), which raised questions about whether von der Leyen's recollections of Trump's comments corresponded to those of Breton.

Trump is the favorite to be the Republican Party's nominee in the 2024 presidential election, with opinion polls predicting a close race against Biden in the November vote.

"The idea that he would abandon our allies if he didn't get what he wanted underscores what we already know to be true about Donald Trump: the only person he cares about is himself."

Yandex Translate from Portuguese.

https://sputniknewsbr.com.br/20240111/midia-trump-afirmou-a-ue-que-os-eua-nunca-ajudariam-a-europa-sob-ataque-32478044.html

Former President Donald Trump told top European officials while still U.S. president that Washington would never help Europe if it were attacked, according to a senior European Union official.

Ironically that might get him reelected... why would Americans want to get caught up in a war in Europe again.... just because they started this one...

"You need to understand that if Europe is under attack, we will never help and support you," Breton quoted Trump as saying during the Davos meeting. "By the way, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO] is dead and we are leaving, we will leave NATO," Trump also reportedly said, according to Breton.

Before the elections that got Trump in to office most of those Euro fags were asked who would be the next US president and every single one of those cock suckers said of course it will be Hillary... only a fool would elect Trump for president.... and the real amusing thing is those same media asked Putin and Lavrov the same question to which they replied that the decision should be made by American voters and that their opinion was not important because they would have to work with who ever the US voting public voted in.

I completely understand Trumps attitude... all this ex Soviet weapons and ammo in storage in Europe instead of US weapons... why would he defend Europe when they aren't a proper customer that the US can bleed and sell weapons and ammo to.

Things have changed now of course since those words were spoken but I suspect Trump doesn't earn as much money from war as the Clintons and Bidens and the Democrats in general so he has no interest in a war that might expand and actually destroy the US physically and economically and politically.

"The idea that he would abandon our allies if he didn't get what he wanted underscores what we already know to be true about Donald Trump: the only person he cares about is himself."

It took 30 years to fully create Russia as the bad guy and an enemy to the west... all the west has to do is stop antagonising Russia and the entire conflict ends... this is driven totally by the west who can't bare to lose face and reveal they created this entire situation and they don't want it to end because it might reveal the truth that Putin and Xi are not the bad guys.... America and the EU and Britain are the bad guys and they don't want to lose their position of dominance.

No live fire events though because all their live ammo has been sent to Kiev so now they only have blanks and training rounds left... which probably is only half the cost of the normal ammo...

NATO finishes modernisation of major airbase in Albania

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/nato-finishes-modernisation-of-major-airbase-in-albania/

NATO Builds the Biggest European Base in Romania That Will Surpass Germany’s Ramstein Base

https://en.defence-ua.com/news/nato_builds_the_biggest_european_base_in_romania_that_will_surpass_germanys_ramstein_base-9874.html

When they say HATO they mean the US...

Having it so close to a future front line is a little stupid isn't it?

NATO has no plans to deploy nuclear forces in Poland — Stoltenberg

https://tass.com/world/1779527