Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

thegopnik wrote:can't access aorti.ru (special projects) section (still waiting on their new pdf) and it says my access is denied to www.kret.com. also they are not publishing any articles here like they use to see the dates https://naukatehnika.com/ Is Russia halting technology websites from producing news content? These are my 3 go to websites all the time for updates.

Seems I too get it. Kret is part of Rostec so keep an eye on rostec.ru then.

but you can bet it is happening all over the world now - not just Russia
sanction-mania has triggered it for sure ....

Not just Rostec related websites are down or blank, others too. Remdizel (KamAZ) for instance is one of those.

these guys are interesting ....

Mr Electrobrain ... yes I'm serious ... IT freak

https://zen.yandex.ru/electromozg?lang=en&referrer_clid=446

Made by Us .... manufacturing generally ... seems to invite himself to factories everywhere for a private tour

https://zen.yandex.ru/sdelanounas.ru

Sferalive Project .... ditto above

https://zen.yandex.ru/sferalive

Superjet Technician .... this guy seems to really be an SSJ-100 mechanic

https://zen.yandex.ru/technicjeta

all still seem to be blogging away merrily

guess there's lots more of them .... blogging away

A lot of Russian websites have been under DDoS attack. Others had their certificates pulled out from under them by Western companies.
Some were hosted abroad and got cut from service. It will take time for the RUNET to recover.

Rostec.ru seems to be up.

Yes, the RUNET will take over. Anything on the .рф address will most likely be used in the future for Russian sites.

Alternatively, hosting sites in China and India may be a benefit too.

I don't pretend to understand this stuff
wish I could yes

anyway a big schpeel on GS in Kalinigrad re CPUs and stuff - including Ostek-EK
on Yandex Zen

maybe Mike and our Canadian friend gets it ... ?

Yandex blogsite that seems to be run a company called Osteck-EK

https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5fe3362f4a4ce621cf6ccaea/gs-nanotech-i-ostekek-chast-1-obrabotka-plastin--etap-preassembly-iz-istorii-zapuska-v-rf-60582c44038eb86b108e851c?&

https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5fe3362f4a4ce621cf6ccaea/gs-nanotech-i-ostekek-chast-2-montaj-kristalla-na-podlojku-iz-istorii-zapuska-v-rf-605b002737297b3abd69ca9b

https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5fe3362f4a4ce621cf6ccaea/gs-nanotech-i-ostekek-chast-3-razvarka--etap-wire-bond-iz-istorii-zapuska-v-rf-606173e37e40c468537eb352

can they do what are considered "uneconomic" volumes of 28nm type stuff ?
I have no idea .... but it sure sounds interesting ...

does seem "something" is going on there ...

They have 200mm fabrication with KrF lithography at Mikron and Angstrem. I know of no one with KrF lithography who can do 28nm.
Even 65nm probably requires multiple exposures and should be non-trivial.

GS Nanotech claims they can do 45nm. But I have found no data on which equipment they use to manufacture this.
A lot of talk about packaging and clean rooms for LED manufacture. But zero on logic fabrication.

I still think it is pointless to waste resources pursuing something like that. At least in high volumes.
Like I said a low volume production facility for the MIC using e-beam lithography or the low volume EUV tool they talked about doing.
That makes more sense.

In the long term the Chinese will solve the problem. I think Russia just needs to expand current production in Russia using Chinese semiconductor tools and once the Chinese get their own ArF and later EUV tools Russia just needs to get those. To a large degree these Chinese companies which make the tools are systems integrators themselves. So if they have any issues selling tools to Russia then Russia can just buy the components from their suppliers in China, which don't export abroad, and make their own machines using Chinese components. I think the ship has sailed on a country the size of Russia making their own tools. In the long term I think even the US will be blown out of the semi tools industry.

lancelot wrote:I still think it is pointless to waste resources pursuing something like that. At least in high volumes.
Like I said a low volume production facility for the MIC using e-beam lithography or the low volume EUV tool they talked about doing.
That makes more sense.

In the long term the Chinese will solve the problem. I think Russia just needs to expand current production in Russia using Chinese semiconductor tools and once the Chinese get their own ArF and later EUV tools Russia just needs to get those. To a large degree these Chinese companies which make the tools are systems integrators themselves. So if they have any issues selling tools to Russia then Russia can just buy the components from their suppliers in China, which don't export abroad, and make their own machines using Chinese components. I think the ship has sailed on a country the size of Russia making their own tools. In the long term I think even the US will be blown out of the semi tools industry.

But as pointed out earlier, Russia has already instructed to build two types of Lithography equipment for production of chips 130nm and 28nm.  So your suggestion isn't being taken into consideration by the Ministry of Industry and Trade - they know far better than you or I about what is needed and in demand in Russia.

While your suggestion may make things quicker and cheaper in short term, long term it doesn't resolve an outstanding issue.

lancelot wrote:They have 200mm fabrication with KrF lithography at Mikron and Angstrem. I know of no one with KrF lithography who can do 28nm.
Even 65nm probably requires multiple exposures and should be non-trivial.

GS Nanotech claims they can do 45nm. But I have found no data on which equipment they use to manufacture this.
A lot of talk about packaging and clean rooms for LED manufacture. But zero on logic fabrication.

Two types of their SoC used for set top boxes for example are made using their 45nm technology. They are the largest producer in Europe for set top boxes and they make their components down to the single grain.

sepheronx wrote:But as pointed out earlier, Russia has already instructed to build two types of Lithography equipment for production of chips 130nm and 28nm.  So your suggestion isn't being taken into consideration by the Ministry of Industry and Trade - they know far better than you or I about what is needed and in demand in Russia.

Well it is a good idea to have a plan B. But I think this will prove pointless in the middle term. At least I hope so. Like I said Japan already basically dropped out of high end development of some higher end tools. You could argue the US did the same. And do not expect Russia to have more demand for semiconductors than even Japan has. Especially when Russia get pushed into a box where they cannot sell to the whole world market while those countries can basically continue trading. China's own internal market is large enough that such considerations do not apply to them. They can sustain their industry solely on internal volume.

sepheronx wrote:Two types of their SoC used for set top boxes for example are made using their 45nm technology.  They are the largest producer in Europe for set top boxes and they make their components down to the single grain.

Sure. GS Nanotech make set top boxes. But much like their production of "Russian" SSDs I suspect those set top boxes use externally supplied semiconductors. They seem to make boards and package chips. In the case of the SSDs, they do not even make the drive controller chip, let alone the memory. You do know the only V-NAND manufacturer not dominated by the West is Chinese YMTC and even they still have to use imported machine tools right? Go to the GS Nanotech website and look at the list of partners they have.
Micron, a US NAND manufacturer, SK hynix, a South Korean NAND manufacturer, KIOXIA, a Japanese NAND manufacturer, Silicon Motion and Phison, US/Taiwanese drive controller chips. And if they make their own logic why is Mediatek in their partner list? A Taiwanese company which makes SoCs for smartphones and set top boxes.
http://www.gsnanotech.com/our-partners/

Their business model makes sense in a globalized market. But in the current sanctions regime I think they are stuck. It is not that what they do have has no purpose, they can replace suppliers, but it is going to be a hard slog.

Their business model also seems to depend on importing wafers directly from these suppliers and doing their own slicing and packaging. This is not the regular gray market where you can get chips off the counter. They are going to be hard pressed with this business model under economic sanctions.

While you do make fair points, take into consideration Russia is protecting its capabilities. If they cannot buy from China, then what?

These aren't high yields that will be used beyond the Russian market possibly the CIS countries. But you do not need a massive Market yet Russia does. Hence why they are a high consumption based nation and Europe relied on them. Car manufacturing is just as expensive yet they make tools for them.

The controller chips are mostly from China as well. But GS nanogroup may have imported the equipment needed to produce but they produce the products now don't they? So why not give them the contracts.

May I ask what is your credentials and what you know that the professionals in Russia do not? They seem to be interested in working with GS nanogroup and purchase a lot from them (with Baikal working to move production). So you must know something since you say it won't work. You would think their specialists would know before negotiations. No?

I am not an electrical engineer. But I know the basics. I learned basic digital logic design and microprocessor architectures as an undergrad. I have seen no evidence thus far that GS Nanogroup has logic manufacturing capabilities. AFAIK they make LEDs in their own facilities but not logic chips. And no, the factories for both are not quite the same. A factory for discrete components like LEDs is not the same as one for logic chips, or for memory, etc. Just to give you one example LEDs use GaN (gallium-nitride) while logic typically uses silicon. So they do not even use the same materials.

Factories for logic and memory have more things in common but the materials and processes are also not quite the same. You are basically manufacturing different things. A logic factory will be making chips with lots of transistors, and the ones for memory will be either making capacitors for DRAM, or vertical cells for NAND. So it is not the same thing. You might use most of the same tools, but not the same amount of tools, and not the exact same materials. VNAND production uses a lot of etching steps to you will need high efficiency etching tools with high productivity and lots of them. For DRAM or logic you won't. The wafers will likely be the same, but the things you put on top of the wafers and the materials you use will not 100% be the same.

Here is their SoC.

http://gsnanotech.com/products/systems-in-package/

Being an undergrad, I would expect you would attempt to do basic research. I too am in the field.

Anyway, I suggest you should contact Baikal electronics and state your case as to your experience both in the field and your knowledge of GS nanotechs production facilities located in Kaliningrad Russia.  I am assuming you been to their facilities, right?

http://gsnanotech.com/news/gs-nanotech-s-experts-speak-about-designing-and-manufacturing-system-in-a-package/

As they say back in 2020, they have been designing and mass producing system on chips for their own needs.



I would suggest that you should leave it to the professionals in Russia to do what they need to do. I know you may disagree but if they feel it is necessary, and the people making the decisions are professionals in their fields, then best to let them be. They have the experience and knowledge which gives them their plans, so maybe you are missing something they haven't.

Have you been to their facility?

lancelot wrote:I still think it is pointless to waste resources pursuing something like that. At least in high volumes.
Like I said a low volume production facility for the MIC using e-beam lithography or the low volume EUV tool they talked about doing.
That makes more sense.

In the long term the Chinese will solve the problem. I think Russia just needs to expand current production in Russia using Chinese semiconductor tools and once the Chinese get their own ArF and later EUV tools Russia just needs to get those. To a large degree these Chinese companies which make the tools are systems integrators themselves. So if they have any issues selling tools to Russia then Russia can just buy the components from their suppliers in China, which don't export abroad, and make their own machines using Chinese components. I think the ship has sailed on a country the size of Russia making their own tools. In the long term I think even the US will be blown out of the semi tools industry.

Once Russia have the technology and production capabilities in place she can roughly have a piece of the market of almost any size she decide to have, simple because she control most of the necessary and fundamental raw materials to the production. Russia then can allow others to just produce as much as she allow them to produce.

rigoletto wrote:Once Russia have the technology and production capabilities in place she can roughly have a piece of the market of almost any size she decide to have, simple because she control most of the necessary and fundamental raw materials to the production. Russia then can allow others to just produce as much as she allow them to produce.

You underestimate the huge amount of capital and resources needed to compete in this field. Especially if you want to do everything from the ground up. We are talking hundreds of billions of dollars when you get to the leading edge. If you get the tools and some of the materials outside at least for 28nm you can make do with a couple billions. Russia would be better off licensing processes and getting tools from China. And focusing on places where it has more ability to compete. Like making their own materials. At least I see no reason why Russia needs to import silicon wafers. There is no reasonable reason for those to be imported. Most of the cost is energy and that is cheap in Russia.

sepheronx wrote:Here is their SoC.
http://gsnanotech.com/products/systems-in-package/
...
Being an undergrad, I would expect you would attempt to do basic research. I too am in the field.
...
Anyway, I suggest you should contact Baikal electronics and state your case as to your experience both in the field and your knowledge of GS nanotechs production facilities located in Kaliningrad Russia.  I am assuming you been to their facilities, right?

You need to learn how to read. Making systems in a package is packaging technology. Not chip manufacture. It is all about how you cut the chips, wire bond them to a substrate, and place them inside a package. Not about making chips. As a matter of a fact China is the world leader in chip packaging right now. If the problem the Chinese had was just chip packaging then they wouldn't be in the bind they are right now trying to replicate the whole semiconductor ecosystem. Chip packaging is relevant. But you need to have chips to package in the first place. The Chinese have the same issue since they went from PCB manufacture, to chip packaging, and now that they are trying to make their own chips and have been hit with sanctions, they need to make their own tools. Except the Chinese are way ahead on this and the Chinese state have continuously funded their tools at least for over a decade already. They might be crap, but they have their own tools.

As I said, they do make it. They themselves state as so. See the video too.

If you think they do not yet Baikal knows they do and they themselves state they produce the chips themselves as low as 45nm, then what makes you think they are lying?

Have you been to the facilities and inspected their fabrication?

I have read what you said. But you provided no proof at all.  You are just telling us you know more than their own engineers between not one but two companies.  That shows you have an ego larger than your knowledge.

I think I have touched a nerve with you. Maybe because you realize I'm right especially when I questioned you on your experience. By sounds of it, you don't have the experience nor have you worked at GS nanogroup or Baikal or any of these Russian developers of semiconductors.

I'll leave it to the experts.

No, no, no. You are the one who needs to provide proof they have those facilities.
To have a fab you need to have clean room facilities and tools. Those can be easily spotted and the tools have few suppliers.
If these do not exist they do not have the facilities. Period.

They have clean rooms for LED manufacture from what I can see. Not for logic.

Just watch the goddamned video you linked to. They claim they purchase the wafers for SoCs from external sources at 1:04.
They slice them, wire bond them, and package them. They do not make the logic chips themselves.

lancelot wrote:No, no, no. You are the one who needs to provide proof they have those facilities.
To have a fab you need to have clean room facilities and tools. Those can be easily spotted and the tools have few suppliers.
If these do not exist they do not have the facilities. Period.

They have clean rooms for LED manufacture from what I can see. Not for logic.

http://www.gsnanotech.com/company/about/iso-9001-2015-en/

Here is their certification as well.

https://en.gs-group.com/technopolis-gs/

Here is their clustered technopolis.

As I said, if you know they are lying about it, I suggest you bring it up to Baikal electronics since they are working on a contract in dealing with chip development and fabrication.

Best of luck in your field. May I suggest attempting to obtain a position at these companies? They may take you in since you have more knowledge as an undergrad than they do. I can't guarantee pay is good but who knows?

But I give you that, they may indeed not make their chips on site. So we will wait and see what Baikal does.

I have undergrad level knowledge in the field. But I did not stop at the undergraduate level on my own field. Which is not that one.
I still have seen zero evidence they can make their own logic chips let alone at 45nm.

lancelot wrote:I have undergrad level knowledge in the field. But I did not stop at the undergraduate level on my own field. Which is not that one.
I still have seen zero evidence they can make their own logic chips let alone at 45nm.

I can understand your reasoning and I agree. It would be nice to see a tour virtual or live of their facilities. They do have an entire park dedicated to their own productions (monograd if you will).  We see little.

But I tend to believe when they say they do, especially when a big company like Baikal (T-platforms) has gone to them and other articles state so as well as Gazputin pointed out.

At that point you need to start questioning your own knowledge, right? It's not like Russia is known for great advertising and showing off everything they got.

But these debates are necessary. It becomes interesting and bring out information if we can find it.

And since they are restarting production of lithography equipment again after the 80's, then the debate is not necessary since all these fabless facilities no longer need to be secluded to outside production for 45nm or less.

Maybe they get most of their chips from Mikron since as you pointed out, is a partner to GS.

Micron =/= Mikron.

Micron is a US memory manufacturer.
Mikron is a Russian semi fab which makes several products from credit card chips to 90nm CPUs using SPARC and Elbrus2K architecture.

lancelot wrote:Micron =/= Mikron.

Micron is a US memory manufacturer.
Mikron is a Russian semi fab.

I missread then, thought you said mikron.  I'm aware the two different companies, thought you said Mikron not micron.

If you read through this thread, you will see how active I was in the past and all the info I brought here regarding Russian semiconductor productions.

Go to page 1, you will see I'm second poster here.

As well, should have mentioned, after looking through their partners list, now about more than half of them can't provide to GS nanotech now. So we will see if they survive because if they do, then they have more local production than we thought.