Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

d_taddei2 wrote:I know that M-84 and T-72 are similar I just wondering why purchase from Russia surely easier to upgrade what you have using companies in your own country.

If you are referring to those 30 T-72 that we are supposed to get from Russia those are not purchased, they are donated. We are not really hurting for tanks but if it's free then hell, why not, bring em over, can't hurt to have extra. Gift horse and all that.

d_taddei2 wrote:
Of course Serbia doesn't need huge numbers have they money to purchase any of this equipment at least to the levels of replacing old equipment. I also wonder how surrounding countries would feel is Serbia purchased around 12 sumadija?  Would they feel threatened?

Well as for neighbours, Serbia and Croatia have nice little pissing contest where politicians get to raise noise in public which results in making them look tough in front of voters, NATO giving some free old stuff to Croatia and us getting to make some new stuff for ourselves. Synergy.

One half of Bosnia will be panicking as usual but other half will have opposite reaction so that's all good.

Now that Montenegro has become "crucial" part of NATO they will be screaming bloody murder how those vile monstrous Serbs will invade them but nobody relevant gives a shit about them (seriously, that place is a joke). Expect same narrative as Kiev only with much less real life gunfire for next couple of decades.

As for other neighbors that are all cool, no problems.

As I understood, Kuwait will buy some new tanks from Russia. It would be excellent for Serbia to buy off most of those M-84A's that will become absolete, probably for peanuts...I wonder in what state are those tanks...

littlerabbit wrote:As I understood, Kuwait will buy some new tanks from Russia. It would be excellent for Serbia to buy off most of those M-84A's that will become absolete, probably for peanuts...I wonder in what state are those tanks...  

I'm pretty sure Kuwait will be keeping them, if nothing else then in reserve

And they can always get some T-72 upgrade kits from Russia and fit them on M-84

Apparently the Serbian upgrade M-84 AS1 is similar to T-90 so Kuwait could just pay for upgrades hopefully from Serbia which will help the defence industry.

I actually like the Serbian SP artillery SORA, SOKA, NORA and Aleksander and the ATLAS system hopefully they get export sales out these

d_taddei2 wrote:Apparently the Serbian upgrade M-84 AS1 is similar to T-90 so Kuwait could just pay for upgrades hopefully from Serbia which will help the defence industry.

I actually like the Serbian SP artillery SORA, SOKA, NORA and Aleksander and the ATLAS system hopefully they get export sales out these

Politics notwithstanding, product appearance plays surprisingly big part in arms sales and until our guys sort out the truck problem going will be tough even though products are great.

For example, good luck trying to sell something in the Middle East that does not look cool.

And that modified KAMAZ that we are using currently definitely doesn't look cool...

GarryB wrote:Probably the only way Russia could sell such things within NATO and EU is by having them made within the EU...

Kamaz is normally exported still everywhere basically. Sanctions seems did not cover export of trucks and vehicles in general. But numbers sold in the West are quite small.

miketheterrible wrote:Zastava shown a new rifle called MAR:




http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/10/new-rifle-serbian-zastava-arms-called-mar-modular-automatict-rifle/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

Cool looking rifle!  Any Serbs here know more about this?

MAR simply means "Modular Automatic Rifle". And its still fairly new design, will take a while to get it on the road. Anways i do not expect many to be made for Serbian Armed forces, especially after M21 being quite a fiasco.

http://armyrecognition.com/partner_2017_news_online_show_daily_coverage/new_modular_automatic_assault_rifle_6.5mm_7.62mm_caliber_zastava_arms_13006174.html

Here you have abit more info

littlerabbit wrote:All I can found out is that the rifle is still in developing stage, it is modular rifle, two calibers 7,62x39 mm and 6,5x39mm. Apparently, 6,5mm caliber is the future of Serbian army.  

Grendel will see limited service only, as its quite expencive and there is no way in hell we will ever be able to afford complete rearming of the army with new rifle. It will most likely be just issued partially to Special Brigade and thats it. Our ammunition supplies are already messy enough with us using as standard issue 7,62x39, 5,56x45, 7,62x54R, 7,9x57, 7,62x51.... some units even used to have 5,45x39 assault rifles.

d_taddei2 wrote:Another thing this new sumadija missile to me it looks like a longer range FROG-7 I just hope in practice it's more accurate.

Also why did Serbia T-72 ? Wouldn't it be better to just to upgrade M-84 to M-84AS/AS1  ?
Or is down to lack of money and getting a loan from Russia on the T-72

Its new development, however it borrows baseline design from some long stopped project that even Yugoslavia remembers. But take note that Šumadija is nothing more but a mockup these days, forget whatever they write on paper next to it on Partner, its close to being done as Russian aircraft carrier is.

T-72s were part of package that Yugoslavia got with licencing, so some are still in service here for training purposes (T-72M), and majority of our M-84s are in not that great shape. Would require alot of funds to be properly repaired, let alone modernised. Many spare parts havent been produced for decades and are slowly fading away from stocks. Also we lost majority of real "know-how" regarding that tank. These days you have very few people capable of doing major repairs of its electronic suite, which for its time was quite advanced. Many things were changed on M-84s so its very often not possible to simply use T-72 spares instead. So problems on that front are piling up.

d_taddei2 wrote:Apparently the Serbian upgrade M-84 AS1 is similar to T-90 so Kuwait could just pay for upgrades hopefully from Serbia which will help the defence industry.

I actually like the Serbian SP artillery SORA, SOKA, NORA and Aleksander and the ATLAS system hopefully they get export sales out these

Serbian modernisations of M-84 and T-72 are quite disappointing actually. Lvl of integration of all those stuff they piled up on them is basically zero. Almost nothing in that modernisation package is of our own production on top of everything, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia... Why would someone waste money on such modernisation when you can get far better done job from Russia with completely their domestic products.

SORA will probably see some introduction, SOKO doubtful. Thing is that Yugoimport SDPR and Military Technical Institute are not going all that well along, they have similar projects that go aganist eachother, very small resources that we have are being wasted around...

Anways, we make hell of a mockups, might challenge Iran one day

Don't know if you can challange Iran but you have something that could be intersting for them to buy !

http://www.janes.com/article/68023/idex-2017-yugoimport-unveils-giant-grad-rocket

280km Big rocket with 200kg warehead.

Isos wrote:Don't know if you can challange Iran but you have something that could be intersting for them to buy !

http://www.janes.com/article/68023/idex-2017-yugoimport-unveils-giant-grad-rocket

280km Big rocket with 200kg warehead.

Still very far from functional prototype. I am not sure if we have strenght to finish this project on our own, in terms of knowledge and general technology.

Militarov wrote:

Isos wrote:Don't know if you can challange Iran but you have something that could be intersting for them to buy !

http://www.janes.com/article/68023/idex-2017-yugoimport-unveils-giant-grad-rocket

280km Big rocket with 200kg warehead.

Still very far from functional prototype. I am not sure if we have strenght to finish this project on our own, in terms of knowledge and general technology.

Could be but I think that you tend to routinely go for more pessimistic estimates.

Others go for optimistic.

Realistically truth is in the middle.

People doubted APCs and MRAPs several years ago and while they are not entirely there yet they did not fall trough either. Middle outcome so far...

Wait and see is what I say...

What I would like to see is Lazar 3 with 105mm cannon.

PapaDragon wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Isos wrote:Don't know if you can challange Iran but you have something that could be intersting for them to buy !

http://www.janes.com/article/68023/idex-2017-yugoimport-unveils-giant-grad-rocket

280km Big rocket with 200kg warehead.

Still very far from functional prototype. I am not sure if we have strenght to finish this project on our own, in terms of knowledge and general technology.

Could be but I think that you tend to routinely go for more pessimistic estimates.

Others go for optimistic.

Realistically truth is in the middle.

People doubted APCs and MRAPs several years ago and while they are not entirely there yet they did not fall trough either. Middle outcome so far...

Wait and see is what I say...

Well, few close friends of my father worked and some still work in our defence industry, they are mostly quite pesimistic too. Those that still work are mostly very disappointed by SDPR actions, ways money is being spent...ways their initiative on some projects is being slashed by "important people", in general its sadly quite grim.

I never doubted we can lego-out things like Milosh or Lazar, buy components from 15 foreign companies and assemble it, works just fine, so does work for countries with no technical expertise whatsoever like Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia and others that do things same way. Times when we could accomplish such project with 90+ % of our own components or at least licenced but produced here, are gone and probably not coming back ever.

And fact stays wherever we appeared with our products they underperformed compared to competition, again sadly.

Militarov wrote:

Isos wrote:Don't know if you can challange Iran but you have something that could be intersting for them to buy !

http://www.janes.com/article/68023/idex-2017-yugoimport-unveils-giant-grad-rocket

280km Big rocket with 200kg warehead.

Still very far from functional prototype. I am not sure if we have strenght to finish this project on our own, in terms of knowledge and general technology.

That's just a rocket, not even missile. At least they could ask Russian help and produce themsleves for export. While Russia could build them for their own forces, they need some of them as a cheaper replacement of Iskander while it has greater range than Toshka and Smerch. With gps/Glonass correction it can achieve a very good precision.

Lot of middle east countries and asian coutries would be more than interested.

Too bad what happened to Yugo defence industry.

Serbia Yugoimport BVP M-80AB1 new modernized version of BVP M-80A IFV tracked armoured.

Serbian Defense Company Yugoimport presents modernized version of BVP M-80 A tracked IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle) under the name of BVP M-80AB1 at Partner 2017, the defense exhibition in Serbia. The BVP M80 was seen for the first time in 1975 and was followed by a modernized version named BVP M-80A in 1984.

The BVP M-80AB1 is a tracked infantry fighting vehicle that includes man new improvements compared from the previous version of the BVP M-80 family. The overall design of the BVP M-80AB1 is similar to the standard BVP M-80. The driver is located at the front of the hull on the left with the engine to its right, a one-man turret is to the rear of the engine compartment and the troop compartment is at the rear of the vehicle and the infantrymen enter and leave by two doors in the rear of the hull.

The BVP M-80AB1 is fitted with a one-man turret armed with 30mm automatic cannon which can fire on the move, the BVP M-80A was armed with a 20mm cannon. There is one 7.62m coaxial machine mounted on the top of the turret. Two launchers for anti-tank guided missile Maljutka 2T-5 are mounted to the right side of the turret. The missile has a maximum firing range of 5,000 m.

New improvements of the BVP-M80AB1 include new firing control system with day and day capabilities at a maximum range of 2,000m. The system also integrates multi-channel day/night gunner's sighting and observation devices.

Serbian Defense Company Yugoimport presents modernized version of BVP M-80 A tracked IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle) under the name of BVP M-80AB1 at Partner 2017, the defense exhibition in Serbia. The BVP M80 was seen for the first time in 1975 and was followed by a modernized version named BVP M-80A in 1984.

The turret is also modernized including new electro-mechanical movement system in elevation and azimuth that can be traversed through a full 360º.

The BVP M-80AB1 is upgraded with a new additional armour mounted on the hull and turret which provides ballistic protection against modern armour piercing ammunitions at the front against 30mm caliber, on side against 14.5mm caliber and at the back against 7.62mm caliber small weapons.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/partner_2017_news_online_show_daily_coverage/bvp_m-80ab1_modernized_version_bvp-m80_ifv_yugoimport_serbia_partner_2017_11507173.html

M-84AS1 main battle tank at Partner 2017

M-84AS1 main battle tank MBT upgrade of M-84 from Defense Company Yugoimport of Serbia.
New upgrade of Serbian-made M-84 Main Battle Tank (MBT) under the name of M-84AS1 at Partner 2017, the defense exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. The M-84 was originally a Soviet-made T-72 manufactured under license in Serbia. The first prototype was built in 1983-84, and production of the M-84 started in 1984.

New upgrade of Serbian-made M-84 Main Battle Tank (MBT) under the name of M-84AS1 at Partner 2017, the defense exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. The M-84 was originally a Soviet-made T-72 manufactured under license in Serbia. The first prototype was built in 1983-84, and production of the M-84 started in 1984.

The M-84A, an upgraded version of the M-84, is the main battle tank in service with the Serbian armed forces, and also with Kuwait (M-84AB), Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia and Montenegro.

At Partner 2017, the Serbian Stated Defense Company Yugoimport presented a new modernized version of the M-84 featuring many new improvements in terms of fire power and protection. The M-84AS1 keeps the same main armament as the previous version of the M-84 which consists of one 125 mm 2A46 smoothbore gun but using new ammunition.
The M-84As1 is fitted with a new remotely operated weapon station armed with a 12.7mm heavy machine gun mounted at the rear of the tank commander hatch. This weapon system can be used against land and air targets during day and night conditions.

New upgrade of Serbian-made M-84 Main Battle Tank (MBT) under the name of M-84AS1 at Partner 2017, the defense exhibition in Belgrade, Serbia. The M-84 was originally a Soviet-made T-72 manufactured under license in Serbia. The first prototype was built in 1983-84, and production of the M-84 started in 1984.

The M-84As1 is fitted with a new day-night sighting device DNNS 2ATK with a thermal imager. The tank is also equipped with an active protection system coupled to the smoke grenade dischargers, designed to disrupt the laser target designation and rangefinders of incoming anti-tank guided missiles.

In terms of protection, the M-84AS1 is fitted with explosive reactive armour of second generation mounted at the front of the hull and the turret. The rear part of the hull and the turret are equipped with slat armour to increase protection against anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) attacks.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/partner_2017_news_online_show_daily_coverage/m-84as1_new_upgarde_m-84_main_battle_tank_serbia_yugoimport_partner_2017_11607172.html

All good but they will be lucky to see any never mind a full force upgrade

Isos wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Isos wrote:Don't know if you can challange Iran but you have something that could be intersting for them to buy !

http://www.janes.com/article/68023/idex-2017-yugoimport-unveils-giant-grad-rocket

280km Big rocket with 200kg warehead.

Still very far from functional prototype. I am not sure if we have strenght to finish this project on our own, in terms of knowledge and general technology.

That's just a rocket, not even missile. At least they could ask Russian help and produce themsleves for export. While Russia could build them for their own forces, they need some of them as a cheaper replacement of Iskander while it has greater range than Toshka and Smerch. With gps/Glonass correction it can achieve a very good precision.

Lot of middle east countries and asian coutries would be more than interested.

Too bad what happened to Yugo defence industry.

Yugoslavia employed almost whole of its defence industry to develop M-87 Orkan, and it took us 7-8 years. Rocket is simple device, however it gradually gets more and more complex if you want to make it... useful. We have troubles last 20 + years to remove bugs with our ATGMs, issues that have roots in most basic rocket tech, not guidance, not gyroscopes..

Militarov wrote:

Isos wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Isos wrote:Don't know if you can challange Iran but you have something that could be intersting for them to buy !

http://www.janes.com/article/68023/idex-2017-yugoimport-unveils-giant-grad-rocket

280km Big rocket with 200kg warehead.

Still very far from functional prototype. I am not sure if we have strenght to finish this project on our own, in terms of knowledge and general technology.

That's just a rocket, not even missile. At least they could ask Russian help and produce themsleves for export. While Russia could build them for their own forces, they need some of them as a cheaper replacement of Iskander while it has greater range than Toshka and Smerch. With gps/Glonass correction it can achieve a very good precision.

Lot of middle east countries and asian coutries would be more than interested.

Too bad what happened to Yugo defence industry.

Yugoslavia employed almost whole of its defence industry to develop M-87 Orkan, and it took us 7-8 years. Rocket is simple device, however it gradually gets more and more complex if you want to make it... useful. We have troubles last 20 + years to remove bugs with our ATGMs, issues that have roots in most basic rocket tech, not guidance, not gyroscopes..

Is the current Orkan fitted onto the Luna (Frog) rocket carrier or it's just me?

Wouldn't it be in Serbia's best interest then to do lots of JV with lets say Russia, Belarus and others in order to get a cut out of the defense spending pie and as well gain access to the needed tech for their own use?

miketheterrible wrote:Wouldn't it be in Serbia's best interest then to do lots of JV with lets say Russia, Belarus and others in order to get a cut out of the defense spending pie and as well gain access to the needed tech for their own use?

Money

Until that is solved military budget stays where it is

As long as military budget is where it is no JV or new stuff

Yugoslavia employed almost whole of its defence industry to develop M-87 Orkan, and it took us 7-8 years. Rocket is simple device, however it gradually gets more and more complex if you want to make it... useful. We have troubles last 20 + years to remove bugs with our ATGMs, issues that have roots in most basic rocket tech, not guidance, not gyroscopes..

When you know they produced fighters, war ships ... and now they have issues with a rocket, that's sad. If your engineers have issues with physic laws then you can blame just your eduction programs ...

Money

Until that is solved military budget stays where it is

As long as military budget is where it is no JV or new stuff

They should put more money for export customers wishes than for Serbian army's. You won't be able to buy in big numbers anything anyday soon. A rocket of 280 Km would interest many countries while Serbia would be able to buy 0 of them. So a JV with Russia or Belarussia would be good. No need to invest in production tools to be able to produce every component, just split the tasks and make some parts while the other the other parts. That's typically what Western countries do.

KiloGolf wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Isos wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Isos wrote:Don't know if you can challange Iran but you have something that could be intersting for them to buy !

http://www.janes.com/article/68023/idex-2017-yugoimport-unveils-giant-grad-rocket

280km Big rocket with 200kg warehead.

Still very far from functional prototype. I am not sure if we have strenght to finish this project on our own, in terms of knowledge and general technology.

That's just a rocket, not even missile. At least they could ask Russian help and produce themsleves for export. While Russia could build them for their own forces, they need some of them as a cheaper replacement of Iskander while it has greater range than Toshka and Smerch. With gps/Glonass correction it can achieve a very good precision.

Lot of middle east countries and asian coutries would be more than interested.

Too bad what happened to Yugo defence industry.

Yugoslavia employed almost whole of its defence industry to develop M-87 Orkan, and it took us 7-8 years. Rocket is simple device, however it gradually gets more and more complex if you want to make it... useful. We have troubles last 20 + years to remove bugs with our ATGMs, issues that have roots in most basic rocket tech, not guidance, not gyroscopes..

Is the current Orkan fitted onto the Luna (Frog) rocket carrier or it's just me?

Yes, four such launchers exist only. Tubes were taken off from original FAP 2832 platform and placed on retired Luna-M rails as it was the cheapest and easiest possible solution. It however became quite crude device, with very limited ammunition stock these days.