Talking bollocks thread

The UK was never an IT power like the US

Well US was always leading in IT. It comes from dawn of Inter-webs
As far as I understand British IT sector suffered brain drain. Commonwealth countries and even USA welcomed British specialist with open hands. Still I wouldn't call UK weak in IT business, even wages are competive. Of course if You take Canada when their win admins gets almost the same as senior java engineer in Belfast...

Hey Regular dont mind my words..
I just wanted to support Firebird.. He was speaking like a true gentle man..
Am offline most of the time, because lot of work..
Well we have here a whole load of comments..

PS I'm of Russian and British descent, British born. So its not right for me to say ".

Fire bird Russ descent .. mann.. yu just made my day.. I am really shocked.. Fr all I know you were Brtish person.. from all comments it seemed just like that..
I just knew your spelling thats all.
Cant Imagine Firebird having Russ descent.
Vow Vow..!
well yur posts are trully russian.

more Russian and Slavic than British by blood, me becoming an Anglo-Nationalist

Great man.. this forum getting lot of info .. from by standers.. I mean posters on off topics.. Lot of Russ.. descent here.. not known by many this is some news..
Firebird=Russky


For Regular, if I may say so..
for all I know KUZMIN was the true Russian, they are filled in army like and rabbits and puppies..Kuzmin= .. he he

Dont worry the silly mad silly puppy will learn how to become a true Kuzmin .. and then he will speak like Firebird on this forum..he he
Regular will improve his English skills hey hey..

And I really reconsider my further rants about British society, don't want to hit sensitive nerve, make people spill their tea and make them cry

NO hard feelings, but no soft ones either. he he ..

For all the puppies (Specially Russky , untrained).. dont try too hard .. ha ha ha..First read, understand and then choose your grammer . ha ha.. Double meaning..

DOD wrote:
You either understood nothing of what Regular said or you understood the opposite , therefore your outburst is misplaced and ill conceived . From the posts that you have made in this forum so far , I wonder if you even understand the difference between a screwdriver and a hammer

I think , it is okay for you to say so. Because sudden outburst are just like sudden bursts of gun fire. I fired because I felt it was necessary for me to do so.
Well I know the level of this forum is way above, far far above then any other forum.
This is because of the intense thoughtful grammar chosen by most of posters in this forum.

Never mind.

Firebird wrote:Thankyou for your post.As you can see,

Hey hey ..It seems that Regular is becoming Regular..

Regular wrote:

Department Of Defense wrote:

Cyberspec wrote:Australia among others....it's a common theme in most Western countries and it's called social engineering. Shoving values down people's throat that they do not accept. A whole industry and self interested bureaucracy has grown from it

Interesting , the line between the West & Russia is fast disappearing .

Yeah, give it about 10 years and we will see this guy as Russian president

GRAPHIC WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Even Boris Moiseev looks straight like arrow compared to him

This guy a Bulgarian gypsy I've heard that he actually has a daughter but IDK if its true

(that is the case for many Russian citizens that come to Canada. They eventually go back
because job prospects are better).
Is that popular choice in Canada? For instance I know people who had to go back to the west as life in Russia became less attractive.
" More construction"
Dude, this bubble bursted in 2007. Don't you remember?

Regular wrote:(that is the case for many Russian citizens that come to Canada.  They eventually go back
because job prospects are better).
Is that popular choice in Canada? For instance I know people who had to go back to the west as life in Russia became less attractive.
" More construction"
Dude,  this bubble bursted in 2007. Don't you remember?

 
I know a couple of guys who moved back to Russia for jobs.  They mostly dealt with oil and gas.  As there is very little job prospects here unless you want to work up north.
 
Construction is actually one of the major factors for the GDP growth this year in Russia.  The Construction bubble burst mostly was west, not east.  Countries like China, Russia and what not have been in more favour of construction than here.  Hence why the constant development of the east (that, and they have no other choice but to develop it).
 
But, regardless what country you are in, you can find a job.  People who bitch and moan that they cannot find a Job in Russia, are usually people who do not put really much effort into getting a job or are too demanding for a job that fits them perfectly, than the other way around.  I know someone who started an IT company in Russia with next to nothing, now they are doing quite well (they live in Irkutsk).  It all comes down to effort.  Like in any democracy, in Russia, you can decide to have either a good life or a bad life.  Sometimes luck isn't in your favour, but you could still (if you can afford it) a nice home with nice decorations, in a nice location with all the tidbits.
 
Another gentleman I know who works in the trades lives in St. Petersburg where even though cost of living is high, he has a bigger apartment, with cheaper rent and cheaper utilities, while still living a close to similar life he did when he lived in London.  If you look, you will find it.  This can be said in almost any country that has a realtively decent GDP.  Also, take in mind that the middle class in Russia has grown by 2.2M over the last year, which is quite a bit.  So obviously prospects are not that bad if people are getting wealthier.  Slow, but happening.
 
 
As for your friends, I don't understand why they bothere coming back to the west.  If you last looked, we are in real trouble.  Besides Canada, United States has a massive unemployment rate, as well as the income per family is dropping.  In France, you would be lucky to get a job, or if you do, you are paying through the rear end in taxes.  In Greece.... Well, we all know what is happening there.  Germany? They have an issue with immigration and things are gonna get tough.  Etc etc etc.  Actually, Poland was really the only nation in the EU that was developing well.  In North America, Canada came out even because we sat on huge reserves thanks to our oil and the fact we balanced our books.  But Jobs are lacking, unless you are skilled worker (no, not programmers, but electricians, mechanics or industrial engineers), then you wont get a job other than working as a Police officer (good job if you can get in) or working at McDonalds.

I am far from an expert on Russia, but this is what I have gathered from people who live there and family members of lived there.  There are really good jobs and there are bad jobs.  What just doesn't help is the increase in taxes for businesses where it really just hurts small businesses.  The other one is Monograds where they rely on the one industry to survive (sounds like Detroit) and towns/villages that have not really changed in the last 20-30 years, and thus, very little job prospects.  But the cities are ever growing in Russia, with all these new technoparks growing everywhere, and construction still ongoing in the east/far east, there are jobs to be had.  All the small crappy jobs seem to be taken up by the Uzbeks and Tajik immigrants.

Thanks for answer, I only know certain class of Russians most of them are academics, not all of them are middle class, they are not working "dirty" jobs, most of them have travelled through Europe. They are generally very critical of today's situation in Russia, sometimes over the top

Regular wrote:Thanks for answer, I only know certain class of Russians most of them are academics, not all of them are middle class, they are not working "dirty" jobs, most of them have travelled through Europe. They are generally very critical of today's situation in Russia, sometimes over the top

 
Russian's are generally cyinical.  Regardless of what they have, they will bitch and moan to all ends.  I know a couple here who generally are unhappy.  They didn't like Russia, then they didn't like Israel, then they don't like Canada.
 
It is never ending with them, with many of them being over-emotional.  The ones who leave though, I find are cowards (unless they left, like my family, due to persecution for being Cossacks), as you gotta do better for your own home than trying to run to somewhere else thinking it will be better.  If you cannot do good for yourself in your own house, you will not do good for yourself in another home.

In my own cynical mindset, I find people to be pigs.  Either they want/demand more for doing little (Russian's) or they will believe that their own crap does not stink and hold some sort of superiority complex (Westerners).  I think nowdays, Many easterners look at the west and think "Hey, they have all this, and they barely have to do anything for it and have a higher standard of living".  What they don't realise is that it all comes at a high cost: Few are rich here, many are poor and have debt ranging past $200,000 which many will not be able to pay off in the next 25 - 30 years.  Many people here die with debt, which that debt is passed onto the children/grandchildren.  People splurge on things that they do not need and hope that they will live a good life.  What I noticed with Russian's is that they love overpriced crap like iPhones, BMW's, Mercedes, Jewellery, Massive screen TV's, etc.  They think that is somehow the life that indicates a high standard of living, but it isn't.  What a high standard of living is having a decent roof over your head, and being able to afford the basic necessities like food.  Which, there are many here who do not have that (I know of many personally).  The wealthy in Russia will move away to splurge whatever they have, and hate the country where they made their wealth from, because they mostly stole that money and are being repremended for it so thety flee.  Many poor in Russia hate Russia for being poor, because they were dealt with a bad hand in life, and refuse to actually do anything about it.  The middle class is rising in Russia because there are a lot of people who are now understanding that the grass is indeed not greener on the other side of the fence, and that there is a huge market that is just still in its infancy, and that they can obtain all of those so called "necessities" in Russia as well.  Then there are those who actually do not need those necessities but still live a good life.

My wife is from India.  She knows first hand that what they tell you about the west when over in the east, is usually different than what it really is when you get here.  Now many people regret moving here, and realise that life was not much better than home.  Yeah, we are safer in this country, but that is because it is Canada (where I live).  But not every western country is safe or has many dangerous areas.

Russian's are generally cyinical.  Regardless of what they have, they will bitch and moan to all ends.  I know a couple here who generally are unhappy. 

Like most middle aged Europeans perhaps?

The ones who leave though, I find are cowards 

For me it was the hardest thing I've ever done.
Being far away in the place I don't know wasn't easy. Took me to find my way around. 
I imagine that Canada would be even more stressful than UK.
A family that is still in motherland is a depressing, especially if You love them to bits. 
I'm not a sissy, but some moments I thought I could snap and cry like a girl. 

What I noticed with Russian's is that they love overpriced crap like iPhones, BMW's, Mercedes, Jewellery, Massive screen TV's, etc.  They think that is somehow the life that indicates a high standard of living, but it isn't.

And somewhere in my head I still have Soviet mentality when we had deficit - so if I want to get something I get best thing possible. New Iphone? I'll buy iOS developer license too, just in case I'll become app dev! Yeah, Galaxy S4? Why not, forget the iphone.
And I rather buy older car with full leather interior, big engine and not the new one with tiny engine. 
Our values are really fucked up if You think about it. Give it a time I guess. Your Cossack ancestors probably were riding horses with golden horse-shoes and encrusted diamond teeth too. 
Still good car is something all us Eastern Europeans want. Lithuanians were busting their balls buying damaged, flooded cars from USA, shipping them to Lithuania and fixing them till they looked like new. Russians went to Lithuania to buy INOMARKI, hell it was an economy back then, Russian hunger for BMW's and MB's saved my family from real hunger. 

If you cannot do good for yourself in your own house, you will not do good for yourself in another home.

Not the case in my situation. Wage differences amongst two countries are such enormous that my head starts to spin. 
I have a live example of my brother, being all talented and not wasting time in serving in certain institutions... Only his love of his life keeps him in the country. His wage is pathetic, he works with 5 things and get paid 1 wage.. He was in UK for 6 months and managed to earn for new car. In Lithuania he earns money for fuel and maintenance and parties. No plans for the future. He gets 1100 USD/pm when in UK he earned around $5000 (about £40000 p/y is standard wage for programmer) 

What a high standard of living is having a decent roof over your head, and being able to afford the basic necessities like food.  Which, there are many here who do not have that

And I know families of mafia men who have built themselves palaces but got jailed or killed and left decent roof over their heads(it has double meaning in criminal slang). Living standards are more than a place You sleep. 

The wealthy in Russia will move away to splurge whatever they have, and hate the country where they made their wealth from, because they mostly stole that money and are being repremended for it so thety flee. 

Sounds like revolutionary rhetoric  Putin is not a poor man, how many homes could You build just by selling his watch collection? It doesn't mean he hate the country. Not all rich people in Russia hate the country, don't paint them them with one brush. They might dislike poor people, but not the country. 

My wife is from India.  She knows first hand that what they tell you about the west when over in the east, is usually different than what it really is when you get here

My wife can tell that pastures are definitely greener here, well even literally speaking. She loves Britain and enjoys it. For her fragile character it was place where she was reborn. She is even able to make money by doing art and it's not possible to do that back our country. She couldn't drive car in Lithuania as people are rude drivers. Plus she is glad that there is less profanity in communication and people are more polite. Fuck sounds so easy compared to "nakhuy blet" etc. )))
I personally even spice my english with russian words "what nah?" 

Now many people regret moving here, and realise that life was not much better than home.

For me it was flight of fight. Invisible enemy. In army where they pay You about 500 usd per month (!!!) with no real prospects. Sure some people have bright future in my country even in military, but I made right choice. Seen how dumb are certain people who only spend their lives in military. Doing only 1 thing in their lives. I'm proud of my service, but it doesn't change the fact that military service does make people zombies, it really stomps Your IQ down to a well trained dog. The way officers treat You is ridiculous as You can here incompetence and idiocy. Not saying that our army is retarded, but it does have retards in some warm places. People who were really interested in military have joined weekend warriors/volunteers and continued their everyday lives, real army sucks in long term. I married to a woman and eventually had no place to live and it was uber ridiculous. 

Only problem here that I find myself out of place. Maybe I don't want to integrate, not really fond of mainstream western culture and have almost nothing in common with people I meet everyday. Their problems, needs and activities seems alien to me. I was never a loner, but here I don't even like to meet my own countrymen, most of them usually ask for help any ways. 

But not every western country is safe or has many dangerous areas.

You are right, but dangerous or not it's usually not a criteria for Eastern Europeans not to move in.

Everyone has an opinion, you yourself have one.  Your brother, being a programmer, does not need to move to the UK to do programming.  In that matter, he is getting ripped off with that wage as family of mine get payed more.  Now days, everything can be done online, so they hire programmers from other countries because it is cheaper, yet these programmers in other countries are cashing in big time.

Someone I know moved from London to St.Petersberg where he gets payed around the same as he did in London, but lives comfortably because the cost of living is lower.  With that, he is able to spend more money on other things.

Just because your family was saved for selling BMW's, does not mean others were.  Actually, familys can be ruined as people splurg on things they do not need, but they decide to do it, in order to stroke some sort of ego; to say that "I must be important cause I drive a BMW", when you can get yourself a Hyundai for much cheaper that performs better than modern BMW's.

No, not all rich people in Russia stole, but most of them did not make it rich by being honest either.  And that goes for any rich person from anywhere.  You do not simply become rich from writing cheques.  There are people in Russia who makes $50,000 equivelent a year, there are people who make more, there are people who make less, but reality is, if you really want it, you will try for it.  How else does people survive in Russia?  How else do truck drivers still live?  How else does police officers still live?  What about engineers? Doctors?  Why is the housing market a boom in Russia?  Couldn't be all those rich people buying up homes.  No, it is the people.  Because in the end of it all, people can still save and work towards the basic necessities.

In Canada, I work in IT, I do not get payed that much.  My wife is a application developer.  She gets payed all right but not that well either.  Average house costs 350K - 500K while a jug of milk (4l) will cost about $5 - $7.  Average wage is something around $42K - 60K per household.  That isn't really much.  If average person only rakes in about an equivelent of $20K per person or around $30K per household a year (equivelent), but homes are around $100,000... Who is better off?  How about if a Jug of milk is around $3?  Bread? $2 vs $0.50?

It is all relative.  If you want to do well in said country, you can.  There is a reason why people do end up doing well over their and live decent lives.  Using the excuse that it was do or die is a poor excuse, unless your family was on the chopping block to be executed like mine was.

I am not going to go too personal here.  I am just saying that I do not think fond of people who run away from their country during a bad period.  Because these are the same people who will end up running away from their new country when things get ruff.  These type of people are usually the ones who are part of the demographic of populast flight.

So should people stay for the sake of their country, instead of their families?

I disagree with that completely. Forget national pride, if the conditions are bad, if the country simply cannot provide for your needs or restricts your freedom to achieve what you can, you have my full blessing to leave.

Especially if we are talking about Russia in the 90s (and past really) when the country turned to shit.
Even today, small business (hell, forget that even big buisness) owners face absurd hurdles to do work in Russia, due to the established, corrupted politicians and "buisnessmen".

I don't know how fast it can get better, save for shooting (almost) everyone @ the top tiers of government.

TR1 wrote:So should people stay for the sake of their country, instead of their families?

I disagree with that completely. Forget national pride, if the conditions are bad, if the country simply cannot provide for your needs or restricts your freedom to achieve what you can, you have my full blessing to leave.

Especially if we are talking about Russia in the 90s (and past really) when the country turned to shit.
Even today, small business (hell, forget that even big buisness) owners face absurd hurdles to do work in Russia, due to the established, corrupted politicians and "buisnessmen".

I don't know how fast it can get better, save for shooting (almost) everyone @ the top tiers of government.

I don't have any prejudice about people living wherever they feel most comfortable.
In my case I've lived in quite a bit of countries, had the opportunity to stay and earn pretty good money, blended in well in all those countries, but just couldn't handle it. I come from the Balkans and this is where I feel best. Call it homesickness, patriotism or whatever. I can't live anywhere else. Recently I've been offered to move again, but I know how I get after a year or two from my previous experiences and chose to stay. I'm struggling here, but home is home.

TR1 wrote:So should people stay for the sake of their country, instead of their families?

I disagree with that completely. Forget national pride, if the conditions are bad, if the country simply cannot provide for your needs or restricts your freedom to achieve what you can, you have my full blessing to leave.

Especially if we are talking about Russia in the 90s (and past really) when the country turned to shit.
Even today, small business (hell, forget that even big buisness) owners face absurd hurdles to do work in Russia, due to the established, corrupted politicians and "buisnessmen".

I don't know how fast it can get better, save for shooting (almost) everyone @ the top tiers of government.

I know not all cases are the same, and I will agree that if all else fails, then move to protect the family.  But it does not entirely mean that all will be better simply by moving.  As you or many others have noticed, the reverse of what happened to Russia is happening now (it is growing) while the west is declining.  It is most obvious in Canada and the States, but I am not entirely sure about western Europe, so I cannot comment on that.

What I am saying though is, it isn't always best to move and forget about your homeland as well as other family members.

As for your small business opinion, I wonder: Do you still live in Russia?  And where do you get your information?  I know it isn't easy, but majority of those excuses are derived from the 90's and things have changed.  Now, it is expensive to start up a business and sometimes (depending on the region), it is hard to start one because of bureaucracy, but it isn't impossible nor that major of a challenge.  I know people who actually own a business in Russia, as well as actually pay taxes without the blackbooking.  Point is, they provide a service that is needed in Russia, and even though they faced hurdles to start their company up due to politics, they managed to do so and be quite profitable from it as well.  How many businesses can open up, doing the same thing (Ex: pawn shops, basic distribution of goods)?  I mean, they are not creating anything new, just simply transferring products around and only making themselves rich and really, no one else (Selling BMW's that are imported then sold on market for high price, selling cell phones, selling other peoples goods that they pawned off).  If you provide a service that is actually needed in Russia, then they will actually do well.  IT companies are an example (look at how Yandex exploded).  Pharmaceuticals is another.  Weapon manufacturing - the company who makes ORSIS rifles?  Yeah, small private company now becoming huge.

There are already ventures being created to help small businesses thrive in Russia by communicating them with other enterprises as well as universities.  

Some people left for various reasons.  But a quote that I have read from another Russian "If you were a loser in Russia, you will end up as a loser somewhere else", and I truly believe that.  Just like if I am a loser in Canada, I will end up one in Russia as well.

Unemployment fell to 5.2% in May 2013

http://www.gks.ru/bgd/free/B04_03/IssWWW.exe/Stg/d01/128.htm

Birth Rate increased by 8.9% in April
http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/33977/

Tyumen region increased industrial production
http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/34149/

In Sverdlovsk region, physicians pay increased by 109% in first quarter
http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/34203/

Novosibirsk Accomodation's accelerated
http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/34734/

St.Pete attracted 130B rubles at SPIEF
http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/35359/

These are examples of how Russia is moving along.  Albeit, it is slowly, but it is happening.  Nothing stands still, and Russia has a huge opportunity, especially in fields it is still infant on (IT, civil market industrial goods, etc).

Point is, there is always good, even with all the bad.  The economy may have slowed down from the proposed 5% to 2.6%, but it is still moving forward, and it appears that development is happening, even if it is costing more than it should due to corruption.  Just another hurdle in Russia's recent history.

Nice this will also contribute. There is also no-smoking low that will ban smoking in all government and public institutions 

Legal vodka production falls by one-third in Russia

sepheronx wrote:
I know not all cases are the same, and I will agree that if all else fails, then move to protect the family.  But it does not entirely mean that all will be better simply by moving.  As you or many others have noticed, the reverse of what happened to Russia is happening now (it is growing) while the west is declining.  It is most obvious in Canada and the States, but I am not entirely sure about western Europe, so I cannot comment on that.

What I am saying though is, it isn't always best to move and forget about your homeland as well as other family members.

As for your small business opinion, I wonder: Do you still live in Russia?  And where do you get your information?  I know it isn't easy, but majority of those excuses are derived from the 90's and things have changed.  Now, it is expensive to start up a business and sometimes (depending on the region), it is hard to start one because of bureaucracy, but it isn't impossible nor that major of a challenge.  I know people who actually own a business in Russia, as well as actually pay taxes without the blackbooking.  Point is, they provide a service that is needed in Russia, and even though they faced hurdles to start their company up due to politics, they managed to do so and be quite profitable from it as well.  How many businesses can open up, doing the same thing (Ex: pawn shops, basic distribution of goods)?  I mean, they are not creating anything new, just simply transferring products around and only making themselves rich and really, no one else (Selling BMW's that are imported then sold on market for high price, selling cell phones, selling other peoples goods that they pawned off).  If you provide a service that is actually needed in Russia, then they will actually do well.  IT companies are an example (look at how Yandex exploded).  Pharmaceuticals is another.  Weapon manufacturing - the company who makes ORSIS rifles?  Yeah, small private company now becoming huge.

There are already ventures being created to help small businesses thrive in Russia by communicating them with other enterprises as well as universities.  

Some people left for various reasons.  But a quote that I have read from another Russian "If you were a loser in Russia, you will end up as a loser somewhere else", and I truly believe that.  Just like if I am a loser in Canada, I will end up one in Russia as well.

Russia maybe growing, but the fact remains that with honest work, life in the US is much more potentially fruitful than in Russia to this day. This is a simple fact. Aside from unique industries, a person simply has much more opportunity to do better for their family by immigrating. Not saying everyone shout pack up and move, but it is sensible for many that do. Moving to Russia and prospering, is MUCH harder than the other way around.
I do not live in Russia currently, though 99% of my family does. I am still a citizen, and I spend a portion of every year in Russia. I think I've spent more time in the country by far in 2005-today than from 1990-2005. So what I am taking about is now, now the shitstorm of the 90s.
There is simply a reason why Russia attracts so little foreighn investment, and why the country is considered so corrupt. It is true- corruption is terrible and respect for the law (when it is not abused) leaves much to be desired. Courts are often a joke. Russia, today, is not a good business environment, compared to less risky markets. Yes, there are still somehow smart and honest people in RUssia despite the total shit the country went to, politically socially economically in past 30 years. Nobody would deny that. That doesn't change the fact that Russia has lightyears to go before we can call it a successful political and economic society. Hell, you should see how in many universities students get their diplomas- hint, it involves stacks of rubles.
You can look at it as an upside of course- if it manages to get by in today's state, the potential might be huge. It is not just a problem with scumbag politicians, people are used to such a state of affairs and breaking out of it is an uphill battle.
Let me give you a somewhat recent example: some lets say people I know, business partners. One is Russian, other is from Kavkaz. They purchased a quarry in Karelia, with intention to modernize and produce cement eventually. Well after a laborious purchase process, it comes to their attention a nearby quarry is owned by some local FSB guy. They don't want to compete with a new quarry, and they sure as hell don't want to modernize- you need to understand, these people are greedy to the point of insanity, they care about money now not investment and growth. So soon there are "protestors" from local unions and police marching in and blocking work on the new quarry, under the basis of "TEH CAUCASIANS ARE TAKING OVER LOCAL WORK" and other BS allegations. Soon local gov steps in and demands to reassess project, etc etc.
Well they managed to make it work evenrtually, but does this look like a picture of health to you?
Now, everyone has problems in every country, some "legal" but still borderline corrupt and unfavorable to free enterprise.
But if you ask most Russians whether Russia is doing well in terms of political and economic freedoms, I gurentee you the answer won't be yes.

Yes a lazy bum from Russia will be a lazy bum in the US or Canada. But on the other side, a person wanting to succeed might very well find better chances abroad.

I would say no doubt the situation is better now than 15 years ago- but not in all senses. Putin's government is, and will remain a detriment to Russia.
Not everyone was willing to wait two decades after fall of USSR for conditions to maybe get better, and I don't blame them in the least.
You wouldn't believe the sort of people I've seen who emigrated to the United States for example- former Lt. Generals in the VVS (who shot down Israeli jets from Egypt back in the day) doing LANDSCAPING, to top scientists of the USSR working as taximen to get their families food on the table. For the most part they have all made it pretty comfortably in the end, some very much so. None of them are rushing back to Russia.....

What can I say,I don't like people talking shit about a country they know nothing about, but I also don't like pointless optimism.

TR1 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:
I know not all cases are the same, and I will agree that if all else fails, then move to protect the family.  But it does not entirely mean that all will be better simply by moving.  As you or many others have noticed, the reverse of what happened to Russia is happening now (it is growing) while the west is declining.  It is most obvious in Canada and the States, but I am not entirely sure about western Europe, so I cannot comment on that.

What I am saying though is, it isn't always best to move and forget about your homeland as well as other family members.

As for your small business opinion, I wonder: Do you still live in Russia?  And where do you get your information?  I know it isn't easy, but majority of those excuses are derived from the 90's and things have changed.  Now, it is expensive to start up a business and sometimes (depending on the region), it is hard to start one because of bureaucracy, but it isn't impossible nor that major of a challenge.  I know people who actually own a business in Russia, as well as actually pay taxes without the blackbooking.  Point is, they provide a service that is needed in Russia, and even though they faced hurdles to start their company up due to politics, they managed to do so and be quite profitable from it as well.  How many businesses can open up, doing the same thing (Ex: pawn shops, basic distribution of goods)?  I mean, they are not creating anything new, just simply transferring products around and only making themselves rich and really, no one else (Selling BMW's that are imported then sold on market for high price, selling cell phones, selling other peoples goods that they pawned off).  If you provide a service that is actually needed in Russia, then they will actually do well.  IT companies are an example (look at how Yandex exploded).  Pharmaceuticals is another.  Weapon manufacturing - the company who makes ORSIS rifles?  Yeah, small private company now becoming huge.

There are already ventures being created to help small businesses thrive in Russia by communicating them with other enterprises as well as universities.  

Some people left for various reasons.  But a quote that I have read from another Russian "If you were a loser in Russia, you will end up as a loser somewhere else", and I truly believe that.  Just like if I am a loser in Canada, I will end up one in Russia as well.

Russia maybe growing, but the fact remains that with honest work, life in the US is much more potentially fruitful than in Russia to this day. This is a simple fact. Aside from unique industries, a person simply has much more opportunity to do better for their family by immigrating. Not saying everyone shout pack up and move, but it is sensible for many that do. Moving to Russia and prospering, is MUCH harder than the other way around.
I do not live in Russia currently, though 99% of my family does. I am still a citizen, and I spend a portion of every year in Russia. I think I've spent more time in the country by far in 2005-today than from 1990-2005. So what I am taking about is now, now the shitstorm of the 90s.
There is simply a reason why Russia attracts so little foreighn investment, and why the country is considered so corrupt. It is true- corruption is terrible and respect for the law (when it is not abused) leaves much to be desired. Courts are often a joke. Russia, today, is not a good business environment, compared to less risky markets. Yes, there are still somehow smart and honest people in RUssia despite the total shit the country went to, politically socially economically in past 30 years. Nobody would deny that. That doesn't change the fact that Russia has lightyears to go before we can call it a successful political and economic society. Hell, you should see how in many universities students get their diplomas- hint, it involves stacks of rubles.
You can look at it as an upside of course- if it manages to get by in today's state, the potential might be huge. It is not just a problem with scumbag politicians, people are used to such a state of affairs and breaking out of it is an uphill battle.
Let me give you a somewhat recent example: some lets say people I know, business partners. One is Russian, other is from Kavkaz. They purchased a quarry in Karelia, with intention to modernize and produce cement eventually. Well after a laborious purchase process, it comes to their attention a nearby quarry is owned by some local FSB guy. They don't want to compete with a new quarry, and they sure as hell don't want to modernize- you need to understand, these people are greedy to the point of insanity, they care about money now not investment and growth. So soon there are "protestors" from local unions and police marching in and blocking work on the new quarry, under the basis of "TEH CAUCASIANS ARE TAKING OVER LOCAL WORK" and other BS allegations. Soon local gov steps in and demands to reassess project, etc etc.
Well they managed to make it work evenrtually, but does this look like a picture of health to you?
Now, everyone has problems in every country, some "legal" but still borderline corrupt and unfavorable to free enterprise.
But if you ask most Russians whether Russia is doing well in terms of political and economic freedoms, I gurentee you the answer won't be yes.

Yes a lazy bum from Russia will be a lazy bum in the US or Canada. But on the other side, a person wanting to succeed might very well find better chances abroad.

I would say no doubt the situation is better now than 15 years ago- but not in all senses. Putin's government is, and will remain a detriment to Russia.
Not everyone was willing to wait two decades after fall of USSR for conditions to maybe get better, and I don't blame them in the least.
You wouldn't believe the sort of people I've seen who emigrated to the United States for example- former Lt. Generals in the VVS (who shot down Israeli jets from Egypt back in the day) doing LANDSCAPING, to top scientists of the USSR working as taximen to get their families food on the table. For the most part they have all made it pretty comfortably in the end, some very much so. None of them are rushing back to Russia.....

What can I say,I don't like people talking shit about a country they know nothing about, but I also don't like pointless optimism.

Personal experience is one thing, hard evidence is another. If GDP per Capita is increasing, and the middle class increased by 2.2M recently, it obviously has to do with economics more so than some sort of personal viewpoint. Sorry to say, but numbers say something different. There is obviously room to grow, but many things are blown way out of proportion.

I too have family that lives in Russia. Personal experiences will differ.

The hard evidence is Russia is still corrupt as shit and a terrible business environment.
Yes it is better than in 90s. Is that some massive achievement or something? We went to a point where we could go no lower.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

GarryB wrote:

To be honest I think you are lucky to have Putin... he is not perfect of course and cannot fix everything immediately but who do you think could actually do better?

Medvedev seemed soft to me and more likely to bend to the west than Putin... or perhaps you like that?

1.) Forget Medvededv, Putin never left.
2.) Is it so much to wish for an honest man in Russia's highest office? One who is there to serve Russia, not to serve himself first?
Because that much Russia hasn't had since USSR fell apart.

Opposition is in some cases even worse. Just a piss poor political state, all around.

IMO, Medvedev is a wanker and Putin is the best leader they've had in a long time, especially considering what he had to start with.

People forget what *monumental* changes went through in such a short time and think that everything will change overnight. 20 years is just a brief moment in historical terms. Russia is still in a transitional period which is quite dangerous. It will take time to develop it's institutions and economy. From what I can see, it's going, more or less in the right strategic direction under Putin.

The main thing is that Russia protects it's independence and develops according to it's own dynamics and it's own interests. Foreign investment is fine but it has to be on Russia's terms not selling off it's treasures for pittance and becoming a vasal state run by a foreign controlled political elite like most if not all East European states and lets be honest, fair bit of Western EU states as well.

TR1 wrote:The hard evidence is Russia is still corrupt as shit and a terrible business environment.
Yes it is better than in 90s. Is that some massive achievement or something? We went to a point where we could go no lower.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but life isn't fair anywhere and corruption rules in many places. Been to chicago? Been to St. Louis? Been to Kiev Ukraine? Been to Montreal? Been to Toronto? You won't believe the shit that goes on there but that doesn't make the country suck.

Yes, I would say that increasing the GDP per capita quite significantly over the past couple of years, and increasing GDP from 59th place in 98 to 6th place in recent terms is a huge achievement. Especially the fact that the country could have split apart even more, but it did not.

Holy crap. A country that is growing, has a + development in GDP, is developing better standards of living each year, is somehow some shithole? I think many of you expect some sort of Utopia. This kind of brings me back to my mention that Russian's are generally hypocritical. Or should I just say whiny? I would say that you can look around at a lot of post soviet countries and see how well they are doing. Even eastern Germany is still a dump. Yeah, not everything in Russia is 100%, but name me a place that is.

 Finally a western mainstream paper to put in writing what I've been saying....people are starting to get sick of their fake, gay marriage promoting, PC wanker leaders

. wrote:‘I NEVER thought I would live to say this, but I find myself agreeing more with Vladimir Putin than with any of the Western leaders…” “We need a Putin…”

Such are the sentiments that are beginning to appear with increasing frequency on the Anglophone internet.


They mark a rising surge of discontent with the failed leaderships and institutions of Europe and North America and a corresponding esteem for the strongman president of the Russian Federation.

. wrote:The great irony of the emergent situation is that it amounts to a new Cold War, but this time it is the West that is promoting cultural Marxism both at home and, neo-colonially, in the developing world, opposed ideologically by Russia.

While western leaders are imposing same-sex marriage legislation, Putin, at the request of the Orthodox Church, has introduced severe anti-homosexual laws across the Russian Federation. As for guff about “equality”, Russians had enough of such hypocritical rhetoric in the Soviet era, whose iconic emblem was the Zil lane, and it would ring as hollow in the land of the oligarchs as in the European and American banker fiefdoms. The population of Britain and Europe is contracting fatally under the contraceptive culture – disastrously compensated by immigration – while Putin decorates the begetters of large families with the Order of Parental Glory.

The contrast between the West and Russia is one of infatuated liberalism, cultural masochism, indigenous depopulation, loathing of the family and hedonism substituted for personal responsibility in confrontation with a virile nation, firm political will and ruthless pursuit of national interest. The clever money is not on the Western wimps. «

Full article

Gerald Warner: New perceptions of Putin
http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/opinion/comment/gerald-warner-new-perceptions-of-putin-1-2973867

Cyberspec wrote: Finally a western mainstream paper to put in writing what I've been saying....people are starting to get sick of their fake, gay marriage promoting, PC wanker leaders

. wrote:‘I NEVER thought I would live to say this, but I find myself agreeing more with Vladimir Putin than with any of the Western leaders…” “We need a Putin…”

Such are the sentiments that are beginning to appear with increasing frequency on the Anglophone internet.


They mark a rising surge of discontent with the failed leaderships and institutions of Europe and North America and a corresponding esteem for the strongman president of the Russian Federation.

. wrote:The great irony of the emergent situation is that it amounts to a new Cold War, but this time it is the West that is promoting cultural Marxism both at home and, neo-colonially, in the developing world, opposed ideologically by Russia.

While western leaders are imposing same-sex marriage legislation, Putin, at the request of the Orthodox Church, has introduced severe anti-homosexual laws across the Russian Federation. As for guff about “equality”, Russians had enough of such hypocritical rhetoric in the Soviet era, whose iconic emblem was the Zil lane, and it would ring as hollow in the land of the oligarchs as in the European and American banker fiefdoms. The population of Britain and Europe is contracting fatally under the contraceptive culture – disastrously compensated by immigration – while Putin decorates the begetters of large families with the Order of Parental Glory.

The contrast between the West and Russia is one of infatuated liberalism, cultural masochism, indigenous depopulation, loathing of the family and hedonism substituted for personal responsibility in confrontation with a virile nation, firm political will and ruthless pursuit of national interest. The clever money is not on the Western wimps. «

Full article

Gerald Warner: New perceptions of Putin
http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/opinion/comment/gerald-warner-new-perceptions-of-putin-1-2973867

Good article.

Pretty good article.