Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

One of the most brutally evocative pieces of sculpture we are ever likely to see. A child impaled on a Ukrainian trident , the Volyn memorial.

Brussels are deluding themselves if they think Ukrainian entry into the EU will be easy given their Nazi past and present. Mind you they are likely to just blackmail Poland by withholding money, as per Hungary. EU solidarity





Notes from Poland
@notesfrompoland
Poland will not allow Ukraine to join the EU until the issue of the Volhynia massacres in WWII is "resolved", says the Polish deputy PM

The massacres, in which Ukrainian nationalists killed ethnic Poles, have long caused tensions between the two countries

And yet the Polaks support the vile hohol regime as much as any of the NATO devils do.

It seems Poles are good Christians and believe it is better to give than receive apparently.

They went on about Stalin killing 2,000 officers and ignored Bandera killing 800K women and children and old men... and young men of course too.

Victims are often very selective in their pain centres... remembering some things and not others.

When the nazis and pro western people flee the remains of the Ukraine in three years when Zelensky is still pretending to be president and has been pushed right out of Ukrainian territory, perhaps they will learn to get along with the other Polish people.

No?

Well how about talking to your politicians and making sure you are both on the same page of the hymn book.

Poland is run by Uncle Swineshit fellaters. They love their own people as much as they love Ukrs, which is not at all. Poland is a better organized
version of Ukraine. Comprador swine that throws the population some crumbs instead of brazenly selling them down the river. But it is not so good
for Poles in the long run.

The reality is that you can use the same description for any country in the EU that has sent weapons and ammo and money to Kiev... whether they stirred their own populations up into a frenzy to do so or just didn't bother to ask.

And looking at the economies in the EU it is not working out for Europe at all.

The only countries in the region with brains are condemned by the west... Hungary, Turkey, even Georgia and now Fico is talking sense too and how long will Moron stay in power... he is a bastard so probably quite a lot longer than most expect.

Bomb release seems fairly low. No AA expected so just above MANPAD height perhaps.

The first bit was flying low, but look at 27 to 30 seconds and it is much much higher... at 30 seconds the sky looks a little dark... I am guessing above 10km.

Looks like the guidance system didn't work properly. Or else it made a break for freedom as all Azoz had were rowing boats.

So it went to Turkey for a holiday... that is pretty normal in that region though isn't it?

GarryB wrote:    
They went on about Stalin killing 2,000 officers and ignored Bandera killing 800K women and children and old men... and young men of course too.

Poolanders whine incessently about Stalin ordering his NKVD to eliminate Polish military brass in Katyn, but they like to forget that it was guys like these who formed the backbone of the Polish military dictatorship under Pilsudski that invaded the USSR in 1919 to take advantage of Soviet weakness following the bloody civil war, and ended up occupying a broad swath of Soviet territory to the east of the Curzon line until its liberation in 1939.

Similarly they love to say that the Soviets "invaded" Pooland in concert with their Nazi "allies" when in reality it was Soviet forces taking back their territory after Polish occuption forces were defeated.

If I was Stalin I would have executed these bastards as well.  Polish nationalists are a cancer in the heart of Europe, and their current rise in prominence within the EU, sponsored by US support as a tool for fighting Russia, is a bad sign for European future aspirations.  These fools might start something they can't finish, and which for them will make 1939 look like a Golden Age...

GarryB wrote:
They went on about Stalin killing 2,000 officers and ignored Bandera killing 800K women and children and old men... and young men of course too.

I guess you should pay more attention to the numbers you are using in your narrative.

It was almost 22000 POW and prisoners executed - and that's a number given by the head of KGB Alexander Shelepin reporting Khrushchev March 3rd 1959.
The number is often referred to as underrated.

And it was 80-200k murdered in Volyn massacres, not 800k.
The number is impossible to reveal, even detailed exhumations won't provide the true answer - all of that are estimates with 100k being the most widely accepted.

Both actions are a deliberate murder that no sane person can justify.

I'm not sure what your goal was in inflating and deflating the numbers same time, so here comes history to the rescue.

"War Brings out the Best and Worst in People".

Mir wrote:"War Brings out the Best and Worst in People".

Volyn massacres are probably one of the most brutal events in the whole history of humankind.
I would put it somehow in the scope of massacres that Romans carried among the "punished" population of Gauls or Dakians.
I was privileged to get a first-hand experience from the people who survived.
One of the things that shocked me back then was one of the stories of how Germans are gallant.
"Germans are good people, they would only shoot you dead."
But I wonder what was there that shocked me, as my family consisted of survivors.

Ukro nationalists made "teams" which were competing with who would figure out the cruelest way to kill.
Polands ex prime minister confessed about a week ago, that Ukrs will never allow exhumations to be carried.
The issue is, that when they were making some of those back in the 90s, the results were shocking even for pathologists.
A great majority of bones revealed belonged to children, aged 6 and younger.
Those carry signs of extreme cruelty. Smashed, chopped, broken.
The youngest skeleton found belonged to a 4-month-old child and was torn apart to pieces.
Like they had fun tearing apart the legs and arms of an infant.
Ukrs didn't have guns back then, so a whole massacre was made by agricultural tools.
Forks, axes, sickles.
If properly investigated, exhumed, examined, and cataloged - those would just burn the Ukro nationalism to the ground in front of the eyes of other people on the planet.
They would have been labeled next to Hutu.
Germans were shocked by the scale and cruelty of the events to the level, when some German units resisted and took active measures to protect the population.
Ukraine based on bandera ideology will never allow exhumations.
Will never regrets it, and will never ask for forgiveness.
Ukrainian nationalism is a sick version of nationalism, because is based not on love for their own nation and country, but hate towards others.
They hate every other nation that used to live among them. They hate Jews, Poles, Russians - it was only a matter of opportunity.
There is no space for jokes here, no matter if someone lives on the reversed side of the planet.

The genocide in Cambodia is the worst ever in recent human history but the US turned a blind eye. Only thanks to the movie The Killing Fields some of this came into the mainstream. Pol Pot - leader of The Khmer Rouge movement killed one third of the total male and 25% of the female population in Cambodia - whilst the US and China fully funded and supported him in his war against Vietnam. Between 1975 and 1978, an estimated two million Cambodians died by execution, forced labor, and famine.

Pol Pot's main aim was to wipe out Western influences and set up a solely agrarian society. Cities were evacuated, factories and schools were closed, and currency and private property was abolished. Millions who failed to escape Cambodia were force marched onto rural collective farms.

Anyone believed to be an "intellectual" was immediately killed - even skilled workers. Even worse - anyone caught in possession of eyeglasses, a wristwatch, or any other modern technology like a radio were executed.

kvs wrote:

The USSR did the arresting and the Nazis did the killing after taking over the area where these Polish prisoners were held.  

The size of your bubble is out of my universe, so let me pass.

Mir wrote:The genocide in Cambodia is the worst ever in recent human history but the US turned a blind eye. Only thanks to the movie The Killing Fields some of this came into the mainstream. Pol Pot - leader of The Khmer Rouge movement killed one third of the total male and 25% of the female population in Cambodia - whilst the US and China fully funded and supported him in his war against Vietnam. Between 1975 and 1978, an estimated two million Cambodians died by execution, forced labor, and famine.

Pol Pot's main aim was to wipe out Western influences and set up a solely agrarian society. Cities were evacuated, factories and schools were closed, and currency and private property was abolished. Millions who failed to escape Cambodia were force marched onto rural collective farms.

Anyone believed to be an "intellectual" was immediately killed - even skilled workers. Even worse - anyone caught in possession of eyeglasses, a wristwatch, or any other modern technology like a radio were executed.

Thing is none of this comes even close to what Ukrs did

Immediately killed? Ukrainian victims would have cheered for such merciful death

PapaDragon wrote:te]
Thing is none of this comes even close to what Ukrs did

An interesting part is, that in a scale - they have failed again.
None of the tortures they have applied to the victims, was unknown and "freshly invented".
They can't invent perfectly nothing - even tortures.
It was only amassing those that really shocks - but I guess not someone who witnessed the Balkans in the 90s.
The reason why they are so fucked up is the fact that they have failed in every single nation building project.
They lack heroes, milestones etc - so they are in a process of figuring those up.

I guess you should pay more attention to the numbers you are using in your narrative.

Well when Poland gets upset about Stalin killing 22000, but blames Russia exclusively for the deaths, yet 80,000 to 200,000 killed by your brotherly neighbours are forgiven, well you guys just sound fucked up... we will fund you killing more Russians for crimes committed by Soviets led by a Georgian, and ignore Ukrainians and Georgians and the fact that they were Soviet regions at the time too and we can sort that out later... probably in some sort of financial compensation because of all that lithium in the Ukraine perhaps?

Both actions are a deliberate murder that no sane person can justify.

Sane people weren't in charge of the Soviet Union.

How many Soviets died during the period Poland invaded Russian territory just after WWI?

I am sure if America did it they would say there was a war coming and it was pre-emptive self defence to kill the soldiers of an enemy country.

But America is no more sane than Stalin.

I'm not sure what your goal was in inflating and deflating the numbers same time, so here comes history to the rescue.

There was no intention to inflate the difference, I just couldn't be bothered checking the accurate numbers... the point still stands... they are upset over the execution of 22,000 Polish soldiers, and ignore the deaths of 80,000-200, 000 men, women, and children.

Both supposedly crimes but only one talked about and used to demonise Russia and Russians despite it being a Soviet crime, while Ukrainian crimes are ignored... despite them being Ukrainian crimes that the Soviets fought against...

If properly investigated, exhumed, examined, and cataloged - those would just burn the Ukro nationalism to the ground in front of the eyes of other people on the planet.
They would have been labeled next to Hutu.

Which further proves my point... the Polish government is helping the Ukraine cover up these crimes... so if Poland doesn't care, why should anyone else?

Russia already knows these bandera loving nazi bastards need to be killed or put on trial and then killed and Poland and the EU and the US are bent on helping these nazis... but I am the problem because I got the numbers wrong.

Misplaced anger is something the west uses and often relies on... it is what HATO is based on.

There is no space for jokes here, no matter if someone lives on the reversed side of the planet.

I am not joking.

It is your government that are supporting these people. The terrorism, the use of their own civilians as human shields, I already knew a group of the Ukrainians that Russia is fighting are nazis, but the west is fighting that description tooth and nail and claiming that is Russian propaganda.

When Poland is openly hostile to Russia and is supporting Kiev they are pissing on the corpses of their own people.

But again, I got the numbers wrong so I am disrespectful.

I gave both your posts a like for the correct information but wonder why you seem upset with me... I don't support Bandera or the Ukraine.

The genocide in Cambodia is the worst ever in recent human history but the US turned a blind eye.

It is only genocide if it goes against US interests.

An interesting part is, that in a scale - they have failed again.
None of the tortures they have applied to the victims, was unknown and "freshly invented".
They can't invent perfectly nothing - even tortures.
It was only amassing those that really shocks - but I guess not someone who witnessed the Balkans in the 90s.
The reason why they are so fucked up is the fact that they have failed in every single nation building project.
They lack heroes, milestones etc - so they are in a process of figuring those up.

And still the west supports and funds them and Poland turns a blind eye to their history while focussing on Russia as the bad guys.

Who knew politics could be so complex and difficult to understand... and people so stupid thinking their politicians would do the right thing by them.

PapaDragon wrote:

Thing is none of this comes even close to what Ukrs did

Immediately killed? Ukrainian victims would have cheered for such merciful death

I do hope that death will come painfully and very slowly for those that perpetrated the Odessa and Donbass massacres against civilians over the years.

GarryB wrote:
It is your government that are supporting these people. The terrorism, the use of their own civilians as human shields, I already knew a group of the Ukrainians that Russia is fighting are nazis, but the west is fighting that description tooth and nail and claiming that is Russian propaganda.
When Poland is openly hostile to Russia and is supporting Kiev they are pissing on the corpses of their own people.
But again, I got the numbers wrong so I am disrespectful.
I gave both your posts a like for the correct information but wonder why you seem upset with me... I don't support Bandera or the Ukraine.

I am not upset with you, because I honestly don't care about other people's opinions.
Your numbers were wrong by a tenfold margin.
I corrected them, just wondering if those numbers are somehow related to the western (or yours) education or something.
I got used to the fact that people see other problems differently a long time ago - that is why I don't care.
Devoted addition of the "Polish elites" to the Ukrainians is 90% correlated with the fact that those are "Polish" and "elites", not Polish elites.
I have described it a while ago.
Vistula Plan was one of the most moronic decisions the commies made back then.
For propaganda purposes, they have targeted the civilian Ukrainians (and Lemks along with them) population for the crimes of UPA that were already dying.
With bells and whistles, Poles finally imprisoned or killed an astonishing number of 2000 banderites, half of them being fake.
On the other hand, they resettled 120+k Ukrainian civilians, mixing them with Poles.
The Poles who have been resettled there earlier, most of them being survivors of the Volyn massacres, and being majority.
What was a result, is easy to imagine - it was like throwing a grenade to a cesspit.
Poles retaliated.
Ukrainians responded by hiding their identities, and two generations after it was impossible to distinguish an ethnic Ukrainian from a Pole.
They all live in an area that was freshly populated - there are no church-provided chronicles that existed in central or eastern Poland to trace everyone's heritage, 20 generations back in time in some of the cases.
They have Polonized names and surnames, and hide their roots to this very moment.
But they didn't lose their heritage, oh no!
They have assembled, Jewish style. Married each other, not the Poles. Bringing their family members from the East if needed.
They were Catholics and believers, which led to the big families model - most of those I know have 3+ kids. Some of them five or seven - nothing unusual.
The other moronic decision of the commies, was not spreading them evenly along the entire western perimeter when they would soak into a 30 times bigger Polish community.
Oh no!
They have made enclaves.
One of the biggest enclaves of Ukrainians was created in the Bialogard area.
How surprisingly, Mr. Kwasnewski was born and raised ... YES! In Bialogard
But it is surely a coincidence, that he was the biggest friend and supporter of Ukraine, even in clear cases hitting the Polish interest.
Lemks were settled in the area of Pila.
To know that shit, people must get some serious historical background.
Now if you met someone who has a family member named let's say "Orest" - you have a 99% chance of having a genuine and deeply rooted Ukrainian nest.
Long story short, we are facing approx. 1 mln Ukrainians in Pole skins.
Who are deeply connected via family ties, business etc. with each other.
It is nothing unusual, that if you want to do some business in let's say Bieszczady, you will end up in a situation where 99% you will meet someone's cousin.
They have retained 3-4 generations of deep connections across a 1000 km distance.
It sometimes reminds me of the Jews.
And to be clear: those are just the same people as any others. There is no difference.
But it is sure how they sympathize, right?

@Alamo

I'm not going to pretend that I know much about Polish history, but I think one of the biggest problems for Poland and the Polish people is that for a huge part of it's history it has been occupied by someone other than the Poles. This in itself has probably played a huge role in why Polish society is so divided on the political front. Probably as many hate the Russians as those who love them for being their liberators during WWII.

Mir wrote:@Alamo

I'm not going to pretend that I know much about Polish history, but I think one of the biggest problems for Poland and the Polish people is that for a huge part of it's history it has been occupied by someone other than the Poles. This in itself has probably played a huge role in why Polish society is so divided on the political front. Probably as many hate the Russians as those who love them for being their liberators during WWII.

It is exactly vice versa bro.
Poland was among the greatest empires for a very long time.
Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom was a monster in both human resources and food production - both being key to imperial status.
It spread across 1.2 mln km2.
Jagiellon dynasty ruled for ages, and not only in Poland but half of Europe.
Earlier, deep connections existed in tons of noble houses, with most notable Scandinavian dynasties and kings being sons and grandsons of Polish crown princesses.
What crushed the backbone of Poland, was the Swedish Flood, which killed 40 (FORTY) percent of the population, and destroyed 50% of the economy.
And by "destroying" I don't mean that the stock market fell but that Swedes robbed half of the entire wealth of Poland, destroying what they could not rob.
Can you imagine an organized action of scratching the gold plating out of the painting's frames? Or stealing glass sheets? Stone steps? Columns? Furniture?
How fucked up and poor must have been a society that considered transporting glass sheets across the Baltics?
What people sometimes forget - it nulled the vassal status of Prussian  Pricedom, opening the stage for the Hohenzollern dynasty and leading to the creation of the Prussian Kingdom in 1701.
Which was the nail to the coffin of the Polish status quo, ending up with the First Partition in 1772.
Hilarious thing in it would be, that it became possible because Poland declined the Russian Empire protectorate status, which opened the way for Prussian Kingdom.
And declined it, because Prussia was feeding the influencers and influence agents all across Poland back then...
Things we see now, have always roots reaching much deeper in history - especially for a country that will celebrate its 1100 years of statehood still in my life I hope.
Knowing the history - you can make connections and links all the way back to the 10th century.
Poland fell a victim to its own nobility ambitions, fueled by the enemies of Poland.
What we see now, is a nation wide status of being jealous that Russkie didn't share the same fate, and retained imperial status.
But it didn't happen a 50 or 100 years ago, but I would say goes back to XI century.

More like among the gayest empires, you mean.

One massive setback and then *poof*.

TRVE empires take shit like the Mongols, Napoleon, fucking Hitler to the chin. Then they keep fighting and then they win.

Take Mongols out of quotation.
They have ruled Russia for almost a quarter of a millennia.
Sure it was cohabitation - like in most of the cases.
Still ...

And both Napoleon and Hitler were taken down by a worldwide coalition.
There is a thin red line that divides fanboyism from objectiveness

Edit : and a funny memory for consideration, how the things - all of them - have already happened back in history.
England was sabotaging Polish grain export back in the XV century already.
Funny, isn't it?

@Scorpius

Why so?

One wrong does not excuse another. Even if the Poles personally executed every single POW they captured, that still wouldn't make Katyn a right thing.

Katyn was a bona fide Crime Against Humanity whatever way you look at it.

Scorpius wrote:
1. Was the murder of more than 40,000 Soviet prisoners of war in Polish concentration camps in 1919-1922 properly investigated and condemned?
2. Did Poland recognize this crime and was there ever at least an apology?
3. How does Poland assess its genocidal policy of forced polonization in the annexed Russian territories in the period 1919-1939?
I think you should sort this out first before starting any conversation about Katyn.

Sorry to step into your bubble, but it was 14-16k of the Soviet POW that died in Polish camps in 1919-1921.
And nobody killed them in an organized and deliberate way.
They have died because of epidemics and general issues with supply. Polish medics fell victim to the same epidemics and died along them.
Poland was way too weak and unorganized to take proper care of a shocking number of 80+k prisoners, taken deep into its territory, with both food & logistic shortages.
An interesting fact is, that in the winter 1919/20, it was the Polish press that whistleblower bad condition of prisoners, forcing an official reaction. Camps have been visited by the special commission of Sejm, with a clear directive given to improve the overall situation ASAP. Which led to dismissing part of the POWs, and sending them to voluntary work in agriculture.
Before the war started in 1919, Poland already hosted more than 280k citizens of the former Russian Empire, who were repatriated from the German POW camps as fast as they could, to get rid of the problem.
The situation was so bad, that Ententa forbade Germany from shipping a single more transport via Poland on Jan 22 1919.
I know that this issue was raised multiple times as an equivalent of Katyn, but it was clearly not the case.
If someone has an issue with finding a difference between POW who died in a camp because of an epidemic, general shortage of supply that was common in a whole state, and miserable condition of some of them versus a directly decided, signed, organized and executed plan to exterminate 22k POWs - it is not my problem.

Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
One wrong does not excuse another. Even if the Poles personally executed every single POW they captured, that still wouldn't make Katyn a right thing.

Katyn was a bona fide Crime Against Humanity whatever way you look at it.

WWII was a Crime Against Humanity.

Mir wrote:

WWII was a Crime Against Humanity.

Yeah, sure - but let's judge when it has started?