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Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

ALAMO

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Post n°101

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

ALAMO Tue Sep 03, 2024 11:16 am

Mir wrote:
Interesting indeed...is that bit of trivial "history" taken from Goebels memoirs or Karl Haushofer's?

But it is all true bro.
The industrial output of the Reich was steadily rising well into 1944, giving a round shit about the bombing campaign.
Just the pure numbers if you wish, total production in 000 pcs, each year 1940-1945 was:

Guns 6 - 22 - 41 - 74 - 148 - 27
Mortars 4.4 - 4.2 - 9.8 - 23.0 - 33.2 - 2.8
Tanks and SPG 2.2 - 3.8 - 6.2 - 10.7 - 18.3 - 4.4
Combat aircraft 6.6 - 8.4 - 11.6 - 19.3 - 34.1 - 7.2
Submarines 40 - 196 - 244 - 270 - 189 - 0

What really broke the neck of nazi MIC, was a steady advance of the Red Army.
By the end of 1943, they were cut off from the Doneck Basin coal and metallurgy.
By Aug 1944, Russkie liberated part of Poland, which formed a COP (Centralny Okręg Przemysłowy or Central Industrial Area) region. A heavily military-oriented industrial hub made in pre-war Poland.
By the end of 1944, Romania was out of war, and Ploeszti oil deposits were gone.
By March 1945, the industrial hubs in Danzig, Breslau, Poznan and Stettin were already either taken or blocked.
About same time, industrial zones in eastern Slovakia shared the fate.
And last but not least, by the May 1945, Allies already occupied both Ruhrgebiet and Pilzen area.

This was the only real cause of breaking the Reichs industrial neck, finally.

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Mir

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Post n°102

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

Mir Tue Sep 03, 2024 11:17 am

Arrow wrote:

It's not just a comparison of the scale of bombing during World War II and the fact that despite such massive bombings, they did not cause too much damage to industry.

Maybe you should have asked Albert Speer - he knew a lot about the German industry. During 1944 German air superiority over Germany itself was lost and
the Allies with their long range bombers could hit anything they want with impunity - including the industries. There was no way they could INCREASE production during those times. They barely managed to supply the Wehrmacht. For example - by then if a German tank was lost - it was virtually impossible to replace.

Also - precious metals and minerals imported from elsewhere was completely cut off. They had to use inferior metals (which itself was scares). For instance the Me-226's engine life was only a few hours because of that.

The Gemans were thoroughly outproduced by both the Soviets and the Allies.

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Mir

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Post n°103

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

Mir Tue Sep 03, 2024 11:22 am

ALAMO wrote:
The industrial output of the Reich was steadily rising well into 1944, giving a round shit about the bombing campaign.

The initial bombing campaign from the Allies - I think - started in 1943 and was not a great success. Bomber losses were high.
When they introduced long range fighter escorts like the Mustang things changed dramatically and the German lost air superiority. That was that for the German industry.

Arrow

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Post n°104

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

Arrow Tue Sep 03, 2024 11:25 am

When they introduced long range fighter escorts like the Mustang things changed dramatically and the German lost air superiority. That was that for the German industry. wrote:

Well, not exactly. The industry dispersed very well, until the end of 44 it increased production, despite the fact that the Allies dropped almost the equivalent of almost 100 Hiroshimas, and even more because the bombings were dispersed, etc.

Mir

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Post n°105

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

Mir Tue Sep 03, 2024 11:42 am

So basically what you're saying is that they never ran out of tanks and fighter aircraft - but despite this they lost the war. thumbsup

Hole

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Post n°106

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

Hole Tue Sep 03, 2024 11:45 am

Main problem was fuel.

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Arrow

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Post n°107

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

Arrow Tue Sep 03, 2024 11:49 am

So basically what you're saying is that they never ran out of tanks and fighter aircraft - but despite this they lost the war. wrote:

The Allies had an advantage in equipment. The Reich, as it lost territory, began to lack individual raw materials, and as the industry was taken over by the land forces, production quickly decreased. The point is that the bombing campaign did not affect MIC production that much, although it certainly did to some extent. The question is whether only and exclusively strategic air raids on enemy territory could force it to capitulate? This was only the case with Serbia, but the enemy was very small and weak.

JohninMK

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Post n°108

temp OT ukraine stuff

JohninMK Tue Sep 03, 2024 11:51 am

I can sense a post cleanup on the way thumbsup

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GarryB

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Post n°109

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

GarryB Tue Sep 03, 2024 1:10 pm

For comparison, the Allies dropped almost 1,500,000 tons of bombs on the Reich, and in total, that's half of what they dropped on the rest of the Axis and occupied countries in Europe. It's interesting that such powerful bombings, which can be compared to dozens of attacks on Hiroshima, if not more, did not cause greater damage to the Third Reich's industry, which increased its production until the end of 1944.

You have to remember it was all propaganda... bombing accuracy of the British was probably about the same as the American accuracy... and both were rather poor.

The Americans bombed during the day and the Brits by night but despite thousand bomber raids on ball bearing factories such attacks had to be repeated week after week after week because the targets were not getting hit. Sometimes the wrong city was hit.

Bombing accuracy was awful. And what didn't help was myths about things like the Norden Bomb sight... myths played up by the makers to secure contracts often against products of rival companies that actually performed better. There was huge secrecy around these bomb sights, but their performance was not that amazing.

The extreme secrecy made them appear to be rather more effective than they actually were.

The current force of strategic strikes is incomparably smaller. As a result, there are very few civilian fatalities.

It is targeted bombing of specific targets, rather than attempts to carpet bomb wide areas of the countryside or cities.

This was the only real cause of breaking the Reichs industrial neck, finally.

I agree, but would also add that production expanded till 1944 because the Germans really never went to a full hard core war footing for its industry like the Soviets had to and the British and other countries.

They would take more time to make tanks than they needed to because they really didn't think they were losing till it was very obvious to everyone.

The Gemans were thoroughly outproduced by both the Soviets and the Allies.

They were the superior race.... all they had to do to defeat the Soviets was kick the door and the whole structure would collapse.

Main problem was fuel.

And also a lot of their experts in the field had been killed and were not being replaced by men of the same calibre....

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Mir

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Post n°110

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

Mir Tue Sep 03, 2024 1:16 pm

Hole wrote:Main problem was fuel.

Absolutely. This is the main reason why Hitler wanted to invade the USSR. The whole effort was to get the oil fields in the south.
Stalingrad put an end to Hitler's dreams and once Romania fell it was kaput for Germany - although the Germans developed synthetic fuels it was too little too late.

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ALAMO

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Post n°111

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

ALAMO Tue Sep 03, 2024 1:37 pm

Mir wrote:So basically what you're saying is that they never ran out of tanks and fighter aircraft - but despite this they lost the war.

Yes and no.
The attrition rate was deadly high in the east, and they could not fill up the gaps.
The end effect was, that while still impressive on paper, with increasing numbers of divisions and corps - those started to be a facade.
What was even more telling, lack of raw materials forced them to deteriorate production by purpose. As an example, armored steel in 1943 was much better than in 1945.
It was because of the systematic process of cutting them off from rare materials.
We are using oil as a benchmark, but that was just a tip of an iceberg.
They faced serious issues with metals already in 1943, but by the end of 1944 the situation was catastrophic.
Germany was cut off from deliveries of both tungsten and molybdenum.
The tungsten case is extremely interesting, as one of the main sources of it was Franconist Spain.
Allies put enormous pressure on Franco to cease deliveries, and finally by May 1944 a secret agreement was signed. Spain radically cut the supply, in exchange of reestablishing of oil deliveries and some political softening later on.
Chromium was an even better example. Its main exporter back then was Turkey, which had a binding contracts with the Brits.
Both Turkey and Germany navigated in muddy waters there, yet it was exported for a whole time since 1939. Turkey-Brit agreement expired in 1942, leaving the door open for Germany - 13kt in '43, and 57kt in '44 - but again the contract has been freezed by April 1944, cutting Germany off.
More than half or German iron ore was imported, with a lions share coming from Sweden - about 40% of the whole. By 1943, Allies finally forced Sweden to bend over, and decrease the deliveries - not to stop those only decrease. But Germans already didn't bothered, having all the business in France, Belgium and the Netherlands that was filling the gap easily since 1940. All gone by the end of 1944, with Swedish supply newer to increase again ...
And the story can go on like forever welcome

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lyle6

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Post n°112

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

lyle6 Tue Sep 03, 2024 2:24 pm

JohninMK wrote:The difference between now and then can be sumerised in one word, accuracy.

Then they were lucky to hit the town or city let alone the factories within it, now its within a few meters so a fraction of the munitions is required.

Any planner with PSSE for target selection and a couple dozen missiles can cripple the power of a large industrialized country for months. Only reason Ukraine's even in the fight is because the entire Western power sector is helping them and that Russia is more than happy to let the west gut its own industries to support Ukraine.

You might think Deep Battle only involves armies rampaging in your enemies rear - but what difference is there if they themselves pillage their own economy to support the war effort while you wreck their shit for cheap on the battlefields of your own choosing?

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Arrow

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Post n°113

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

Arrow Tue Sep 03, 2024 2:51 pm

Any planner with PSSE for target selection and a couple dozen missiles can cripple the power of a large industrialized country for months. wrote:

I don't even think in Serbia it took almost 3 months of bombing in 1999 for Serbia to surrender.

lancelot

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Post n°114

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

lancelot Tue Sep 03, 2024 8:24 pm

The thing is those production numbers in the late war by the Germans when Albert Speer was armaments minister were achieved with dubious schemes. For example they stopped providing spare parts to the front, all spare parts were to be used in the factories to produce equipment. Instead of fixing tanks on the field, you had to ship them to the factory, or just abandon them there. A lot of "produced" weapons were also in fact damaged equipment sent back to the factory which were then remanufactured and then counted as produced. Not built from scratch.

Late in the war shortages of strategic materials also meant that equipment quality suffered quite a lot.

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ALAMO

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Post n°115

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

ALAMO Tue Sep 03, 2024 9:58 pm

lancelot wrote:The thing is those production numbers in the late war by the Germans when Albert Speer was armaments minister were achieved with dubious schemes. For example they stopped providing spare parts to the front, all spare parts were to be used in the factories to produce equipment. Instead of fixing tanks on the field, you had to ship them to the factory, or just abandon them there. A lot of "produced" weapons were also in fact damaged equipment sent back to the factory which were then remanufactured and then counted as produced. Not built from scratch.

Late in the war shortages of strategic materials also meant that equipment quality suffered quite a lot.

Well, it was not that bad as it seems.
What we are talking about is a time when Soviets were making insane advances - making all the equipment left behind lost.
There was no chance to evacuate it - Germans lacked logistics to do so.
So in some perspective, making a piece of weapon instead of trying to repair it on the frontline can be justified.

GarryB

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Post n°116

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

GarryB Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:57 am

I don't even think in Serbia it took almost 3 months of bombing in 1999 for Serbia to surrender.

Serbia was cut off from outside support... Georgia folded in about a week when cut off from western support...

Fighting to the death sounds noble, but most of the time it is pointless and a total waste.

kvs

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Post n°117

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

kvs Fri Sep 06, 2024 1:17 pm

ALAMO wrote: It is not a joke, but a carefully planned situation.
The whole "wealthy and mighty AAA Supa Dupa+ ranking" is so deep in debt, that hardly can breathe.
It was possible to sort out only as long as the interest rates were close to zero, or negative, like Swiss.
Now, western debts are being rolled by bond emissions that are very expensive.
In the case of murica, the cost of debt servicing has already overcome the Pentagon spending Laughing .
This is why all the vassal states are being forced to pump any money they can arrange into this burner.
Screwing the French with submarines for Australia is just one of the examples of how desperate yankee are, but not the only one.
Poland was just pushed under the bus not only with enormous defense spending that hit 5% of GDP, but is being sucked dry at every level. A nuclear power plant that is set to be constructed is rumored to have an official cost of more than $20 bln, and was the most expensive "offer" on the table. Again, it is rumored that it cost about twice the Korean offer. And keep in mind that we are talking about cooperation with a de facto bankrupt Westinghouse, which is about 20 years backward in technology.

Debt is not the only thing propping up the US empire. It is pure money printing, Pancho Villa style, that is propping it up. The magic of the US dollar
being the global reserve and trade currency is that this printing does not result in US hyperinflation. If the dollar stops being used by the rest of the world
to a sufficient extent, then the USA is epically f*cked.

Western nuclear power plant prices reflect total corruption. There is nothing about a nuclear power plant that explains such costs. Not
the processed uranium, not the pressurized reactor vat and fuel rods and certainly not the concrete building. All you have are 10x inflated prices
because of the "risk" or some other BS pretext. Poland is now part of the western rot club and should smile as it takes it in the rear from its bestest
pals. It helps to focus hate on Russia to mitigate the stress.

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Kiko

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Post n°118

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

Kiko Fri Sep 06, 2024 2:07 pm

The Durov guy is full of narcissism and unpredictability!

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lancelot

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Post n°119

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

lancelot Fri Sep 06, 2024 5:10 pm

Kiko wrote:The Durov guy is full of narcissism and unpredictability!

What did you expect from this bozo? He completely drank the Western kool-aid.
I already said as much here a long time ago. It was clear when he refused to cooperate with the Russian authorities during the Navalny protests. He refused to shut down the communications of the protesters despite being ordered by the court to do so. They were organizing the mass protests using VKontakte. He thought he was above the law.

But to the West he will betray your personal information and everything. You will see.

He is already spouting bullshit about authoritarianism while operating a business in the UAE. He is a total asshole.
It is a shame the French did not lock him up for good.

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GarryB

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Post n°120

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

GarryB Fri Sep 06, 2024 6:44 pm

It is a shame the French did not lock him up for good.

His value is being in charge of a trusted site... there is no value to the west of him sitting in a jail cell denying them access to user data from his product.

The ideal result will be a secret deal to fold like a deck chair to western intel while openly claiming he is pro free speech and that will never change.

They will let him go and in private he will give them the access and information they want when they want it like Apple does and like Microsoft does and like Huawei didn't... which is why it is banned in many western countries.

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Mir

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Post n°121

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

Mir Sat Sep 07, 2024 9:02 am

Lets pretend I'm a hardware store owner. Some dude called Harry buys an axe and a chainsaw from the store. He goes home and kills his wife with the axe and use the chainsaw to cut her body into small pieces and feed her remains to the dogs.

Fortunately Harry gets caught for this horrendous murder, but unfortunately I get arrested and charged for murder as well - abetting and aiding the killer.

Maybe they should re-open the phone records of all the previous mafia bosses and arrest the CEO's of all the phone companies for abetting and aiding. dunno

How about arresting all those nasty gun shop owners - where a firearm was used (even accidentally) to kill or wound somebody dunno

Even better, why not arrest all the CEO's in the motor vehicle trade for manufacturing cars that killed or maimed in road accidents.

By arresting and charging Durov a new legal precedent has now been created. At the very least Bill Gates should be arrested and jailed for life for creating Microsoft/Windows - abetting and aiding millions (if not billions) of criminal acts. Twisted Evil

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kvs

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Post n°122

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

kvs Sat Sep 07, 2024 12:01 pm

Durov's personality does not excuse the Orwellian abuse of power by the NATzO west. Note how inane new standards of jurisprudence and
criminality are being pulled from the ass and imposed on the western utopia. Mir's list demonstrates the absurdity. Add to the list:

"I breathe out CO2 which contributes to climate change, which causes damage to crops and infrastructure and even death from storms and
flooding. So I should be charged for contributing to climate change by living."

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PapaDragon

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Post n°123

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

PapaDragon Mon Sep 09, 2024 9:19 am

higurashihougi wrote:A very dark, grim, and horrible future for Ukraine....

Who gives a fúck?

higurashihougi wrote:Any Global South country....

Phrase 'Global South' cringe and gay

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lyle6

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Post n°124

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

lyle6 Mon Sep 09, 2024 9:52 am

the global south wouldn't even exist if not for the USSR.

useless ingrate eaters.

**** em raw.

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The-thing-next-door

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Post n°125

Re: Offtopic stuff from the Ukriane war thread1

The-thing-next-door Mon Sep 09, 2024 10:00 am

higurashihougi wrote:A very dark, grim, and horrible future for Ukraine.

Any Global South country that used to be or is suffering under Western imperialist yoke knows full well what that means.

You are assuming Ukraine will somehow win or that any amount of it will be controlled by the west.

Your victim phantasies are truly beyond me. Serious people do not curl up and act like masochists, but instead work to solve the problem that is threatening them and a mere proxy is a rather easy problem to solve.

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