PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

sepheronx wrote:

HM1199 wrote:guys i'd like to clear something up about the pak fa , those engines it has currently are not bad , its just that people are not  really understanding where is the problem .
currently , they give off 147 kn of thrust each , which is only 9 kn less thrust compared to the f22 , considering the pak fa weighs 18 tons empty , the "empty" thrust to weight ratio is 1.66 , while the f22 weighs 19.8 t , its "empty" t/w ratio is 1.60.
also , those engines proppel the pak fa at 2600 km/h (faster than f22) which is very decent , and give it a range of 3500 km (more than f22)which is really good , plus it has 3d tvc .

so if the pak fa's current engines give it more kinematical performance than its rival , the f22 , where is the problem??
well the problem is that , if you look at the documentary , russia has required engines not to be only good now , but would still be competetive in the 2030's and 2020's , and thats why they are making the new engine , too keep the pak fa's kinematical capability updated throughout the years .

and its funny that the nationnal interest says that its a fatal flaw , how can this be really a flaw?

also , guys i really need to ask you for some help , i am making a pak fa vs f22 video , and i need the range of the pak fa's main radar , some say its 400km , some say its more than 400km because its an upgraded version of the irbis e that already had 400km of range , and that the byelka's 400 km figure was given in 2009 , before it was completed .

please help .

It all depends on how many T/R modules it has and of which variant.  Old tests were with 10W - 15W GaAS modukes while Russia has also been working on GaN modules as well that could be rated between 15W - 30W.  Rostec has also been working on reducing size and heat of the T/R modules so they could possibly fit more than the proposed 1500 modules.  Power supplied from the PSU is said to be the same as the Irbis E takes from the Su-35S which is 20Kw.  It is also said that N036 is a AESA variant of Irbis E (N035) so that is where the speculated performance comes from.

But we have not heard much about the N036 for some time.  Just what Kret/Rostec says.

well yeah but ive heared that the pak fa uses low temperature ceramic technology in its modules . same technology used in the armata's radar , and those can detect 0.3 sqm targets from 100 km away and with a very small antenna !
thats a lot of power dished out .
but still , what range should i put then ?

Flight Tests of Russia's Advanced PAK FA Fighters Almost Completed - Sukhoi

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160704/1042413127/flight-tests-t-50.html

I have this theory that the PAK-FA could use its RWR and L-band antennas to detect and target stealth aircraft. There is actually some evidence that the RWR in the PAK-FA could  detect LPI radars. In an interview on the Krasukha-2 the general director stated that now they were able to jam "complex radar signals which is something we weren't able to do in the past" to jam a radar signal you also have to detect it ,assuming that by "complex radar signals" they mean LPI and that the PAK-FA will come equipped with the latest advancements in technology when it comes to passive sensors then we can assume that the RWR of the PAK-FA could detect LPI. So after the signal from an LPI radar is detected then it will transfer the vertical and horizontal angle information of the target to the L-band antennas. Once the information is transferred to the L-band antennas, the PAK-FA would use the L-band antennas to measure range. After the range is acquired then the information is processed. Finally after the information is processed, the received information would be enough to provide a weapon's quality track. Remember when the Himalaya EW system designers said that the Himalaya EW system(PAK-FA's EW suit) could neutralize stealth.


The interview is in a video named Technology Update 66: Stealth jet nano coating, a mobile radar jammer & hydrogen fuel cells
(it start at minute 16:27)

User 1592 wrote:I have this theory that the PAK-FA could use its RWR and L-band antennas to detect and target stealth aircraft. There is actually some evidence that the RWR in the PAK-FA could  detect LPI radars. In an interview on the Krasukha-2 the general director stated that now they were able to jam "complex radar signals which is something we weren't able to do in the past" to jam a radar signal you also have to detect it ,assuming that by "complex radar signals" they mean LPI and that the PAK-FA will come equipped with the latest advancements in technology when it comes to passive sensors then we can assume that the RWR of the PAK-FA could detect LPI. So after the signal from an LPI radar is detected then it will transfer the vertical and horizontal angle information of the target to the L-band antennas. Once the information is transferred to the L-band antennas, the PAK-FA would use the L-band antennas to measure range. After the range is acquired then the information is processed. Finally after the information is processed, the received information would be enough to provide a weapon's quality track. Remember when the Himalaya EW system designers said that the Himalaya EW system(PAK-FA's EW suit) could neutralize stealth.


The interview is in a video named  Technology Update 66: Stealth jet nano coating, a mobile radar jammer & hydrogen fuel cells
 (it start at minute 16:27)

L-Band is a much longer wavelength and can more easily detect stealth aircraft but is also less accurate , but i think it's all about networking ,multiple units networked together, widely separated units will reduce the volume that a blip can be in dramatically .

George1 wrote:Flight Tests of Russia's Advanced PAK FA Fighters Almost Completed - Sukhoi

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160704/1042413127/flight-tests-t-50.html

Yeah, how about no.

"L-Band is a much longer wavelength and can more easily detect stealth aircraft but is also less accurate  , but i think it's all about networking ,multiple units networked together, widely separated units will reduce the volume that a blip can be in dramatically."

That is true however this concept that I have only requires L-band to measure range and that means its resolution can be improved with pulse compression thus allowing it to get a weapon's quality track ,but thanks anyways


sorry, I don't know how to use the quotation system

GarryB wrote:L band is long enough to be less effected by shape, but is used widely for datalinks.

That is why the L band array on the PAK FA and Su-335 are linear arrays... they will likely be used for datalink transmissions as well as a direction finder for NATO datalink use either between platforms or by stealth aircraft communicating with their AMRAAM missiles in flight.

Comparing the angular results from several aircraft in one or more flights should allow fairly accurate triangulation of even the stealthiest of threats, as well as indications of where to concentrate the enormous power of the main and side radar antenna arrays of the aircraft.

Yeah, they can also be used like that, in my concept the L-band's were only needed as range finders which is possible given that pulse compression would give the L-band's enough range resolution. However the L-band's might as well work both ways with that I mean my concept and your concept, I don't see why the Russian's wouldn't make their system work in as many ways as possible, but anyways, thanks.  

L Band radars can be useful against stealth targets such as the f22. It can detect data links , meaning that the su35 or pak fa would be aware of those stealth airplanes , for example , an su35 might not detect the f22 with its radar , but if it detects he datalinks , and not the airplanes , then the pilot will conclude that he is against stealth aircraft. l band radars can also employ electronic attack against datalinks , so missiles will be useless , and the f22's will not be able to share data , etc
What do u guys think?
Also , lol guys did you see all of the anti russian bias in f16.net? Lol they always talk about how "bad" russian stuff is and that nato is 30 years ahead lol

HM1199 wrote:L Band radars can be useful against stealth targets such as the f22. It can  detect data links , meaning that the su35 or pak fa would be aware of those stealth airplanes , for example , an su35 might not detect the f22 with its radar , but if it detects he datalinks , and not the airplanes , then the pilot will conclude that he is against stealth aircraft. l band radars can also employ electronic attack against datalinks , so missiles will be useless , and the f22's will not be able to share data , etc
What do u guys think?
Also , lol guys did you see all of the anti russian bias in f16.net? Lol they always talk about how "bad" russian stuff is and that nato is 30 years ahead lol

That is true though L-band radars can still detect the F-22 without the need of necessarily detecting a data-link. The L-band frequency is less affected by RAM (radar absorbing material) and shape of a stealth fighter. Here is the effectiveness of a kind of RAM against different radar frequencies , remember that L-band frequency is between 1-2 GHz.  

As you can see at around 2 GHz the RAM becomes almost completely ineffective.

The PAK FA has played the bugbear for Western air forces for nearly a decade, the terrifying Russian jet that will eat F-35s for breakfast. American aviation analysts in search of something, anything that might threaten U.S. air dominance settled on the PAK FA, a frankly evil looking jet that bore a very mild resemblance to the MiG-31 “Firefox” that Clint Eastwood made famous.

Say what you will about the F-35, but Lockheed Martin has actually built and delivered one hundred and seventy one aircraft thus far. The Russian Air Force, meanwhile, has yet to receive its first PAK FA. In lieu of the PAK FA, Russia has continued to acquire generation 4.5 fighters (mostly of the Flanker family) as well as upgrading generation 4 fighters (including various Flankers, the MiG-29 Fulcrum, and the MiG-31 Foxhound). Sukhoi will likely never build the number of fighters that Western analysts expected, or that the Russian Air Force wanted.

Acquisition of the PAK FA has slowed for two reasons. First, technical problems have beset the program, as Russia’s aviation industry (weighed down by the legacy of the post–Cold War collapse) has struggled with the development and manufacture of advanced stealth and avionic components. Second, the Russian economy has been damaged in the face of a worldwide drop in oil prices, and Western sanctions stemming from the decision to seize and annex Crimea. All in all, it remains unclear whether the PAK FA will ever threaten Western dominance of the skies.

(Recommended: 5 Worst Fighter Planes of All Time)

A New Stealth Fighter

The PAK FA emerged from the ruins of the Russian post-Cold War military-industrial base. Russia’s first fifth-generation fighter project, the “MiG 1.44,” produced a single prototype before cancellation. The advent of the F-22 Raptor, and the expectation that the U.S. would follow up with large numbers of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, made the development of a fifth-generation fighter imperative for Russia.

Perception of this need resulted in the award of a new fighter contract to Sukhoi in 2002. Sukhoi promised to produce a high maneuverability stealth fighter with supercruise capabilities that could match or defeat Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor in air-to-air combat. The PAK FA will also have sophisticated avionic systems, including datalink and a variety of electronic warfare components. Altogether, the PAK FA appears to strongly resemble the F-22 in performance, with marginally less stealth and network capabilities, but potentially more room to grow.

Production

After several years of development delays, the first T-50 (prototype designation) test flight happened in 2011. Since then, Sukhoi has produced six prototypes, which have amassed considerable hours in flight testing. Initial expectations projected the acquisition of 200 PAK FAs for Russia, 200 for India, and an unknown number for other countries.

(Recommended: 5 Russian Weapons of War America Should Fear)

However, the fighter continues to struggle with questions over cost and engine performance. In particular, the engines adopted for early aircraft do not provide sufficient thrust for the airframe, leaving the aircraft at a significant disadvantage compared to American fighters. In part because of this, and in part because of Russia’s economic difficulties, the initial order has dropped to twelve (with more expected after the resolution of engine problems).

Export

The PAK FA is nearly as important (conceptually, at least) to India’s aerospace future as to Russia, making the production issues particularly problematic. After months of haggling and disagreement, Russia agreed to cut development costs for the Indian version of the PAK FA. Theoretically, India is on the hook for roughly 150 fighters, and could purchase a hundred more on top of that.

The PAK FA plays a major role in India’s competition with China and Pakistan, its two major regional rivals. China has pushed the J-20 stealth fighter project to a stage competitive with the PAK FA, although we know less of the former’s capabilities than of the latter. For its part, we can expect that Pakistan will likely acquire J-31 stealth fighters from China, whether off the shelf or as part of some kind of joint production scheme.

It remains unclear whether India will ever acquire a version of the PAK FA, or instead focus on indigenously developed aircraft (the distant AMCA project, which may result in a usable combat aircraft by 2030). The absence of the PAK FA (HAL FGFA in Indian terminology) will leave a major hole in the Indian Air Force for quite a long time.

With respect to other buyers, the Russians may eventually find export customers, but few seem interested at this point. The high cost of the plane, it's unproven technology, and limited Russian productive capacity make it a bad bet compared to the Flanker family, or (for those countries lucky enough to have a Club Membership) the F-35. That said, Sukhoi has enjoyed strong export success in recent years, and it would be wrong to bet against them at this point.

Parting Thoughts

The biggest question associated with the PAK FA remains this; can Russia’s aviation industry produce a sufficient number of fighters of sufficient reliability to have a significant strategic impact? The answer remains very much in doubt, but depends to great extent on whether the Russian economy recovers, and the Russian Air Force submits sufficient domestic orders to make producing the fighter a worthwhile risk.

Although a completely different kind of fighter, the J-20 has increasingly taken on the bugbear role for Western air forces. The J-20 doesn’t match up well with either the F-22 or the F-35, but presents a different set of problems; how to defend vulnerable forward installations from a stealth-capable strike aircraft. That’s somewhat less sexy than the vision of Raptors and PAK FAs dog fighting it out, but it’s closer to the problems that every non-Western air force has faced for the last three decades.

Robert Farley, a frequent contributor to the National Interest, is author of The Battleship Book. He serves as a senior lecturer at the Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce at the University of Kentucky. His work includes military doctrine, national security and maritime affairs. He blogs at Lawyers, Guns and Money, Information Dissemination and the Diplomat.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-pak-fa-stealth-fighter-the-us-air-forces-worst-16991?page=2

I think the relevant response to that goes something like this

Guys that article about the pak fa was copy pasted from " the national interest " magazine , it is known for writing bullshit articles about the pak fa being a "failure" and trying to trash it becasue they are jealous the pak fa can shoot down the f22 and f35.
The thing i dislike most is the " american air superiority" they keep bragging about it , no , the americans do not have air superiority , the su35 beats anything in the US arsenal , including the f22 ,lol what a joke.

Also , can someone tell me more about the maneuerability about the pakfa comparing to f22 .

Well in airshows F-22 demonstrates most/all of the Su series stuff so its agility is well up there, at least better than any non-Su series plane.
F-22 looks a bit constrained/restrained while doing it though vs Sus seeming more like a pilot going up & throwing the plane around the sky for fun.

F-35 ... was supposed to be a stealthy F-16 but turned out to be a Stealthy Buccaneer.

Thats either an heretical insult to the mighty Buccaneer or big praise for the strike ability of F-35

hoom wrote:Well in airshows F-22 demonstrates most/all of the Su series stuff so its agility is well up there, at least better than any non-Su series plane.
F-22 looks a bit constrained/restrained while doing it though vs Sus seeming more like a pilot going up & throwing the plane around the sky for fun.

F-35 ... was supposed to be a stealthy F-16 but turned out to be a Stealthy Buccaneer.

Thats either an heretical insult to the mighty Buccaneer or big praise for the strike ability of F-35

F-22 exhibits 2D vectoring vs. Russian multi-axis 3D, and does not have that "aware" leading-edge that the Su-35S and PAK-FA employ. Honestly, US application of TVC is pretty much dead at this point anyway.

They never could get the hang of it, as the F-18HARV, F-15 ACTIVE etc. demonstrated.

Also, F-22 nozzles allegedly had a high wear rate, not sure if they fixed it with the -22A.

we still dont have NATO code name for PAK-FA?

GarryB wrote:the F-22 is a long range sniper designed to fly fast and high and shoot from distances where the enemy wont even see what hit them.

As far as I know F-22 radar is even smaller than Su-30/35, the immature AESA techs mean and it suffers from phase/frequency distortiong... which means F-22 is a sniper with myopia.

Stealth is still useful , instead of detecting F-22's at 500km range , like S-400 can do.
they will be detected at 200km or even 150km by same radars. The same is true for Pak-fa
Stealth ram will will give some extra time before they detected ,that could be very useful
in a sneak first strike attack. Also Plane radars are weaker than land based ones. So using
their own radars it could allow an F-22 to get 100km close to any Russian plane or warship undetected If the encounter is done in open sea with no S-400 or S-500 radars backup.

So stealth always helps.. the big mistake will be to think they are unstopable and cannot be seen
or intercepted.