PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

KRET developing "OHOTNIK" system for PAK-FA. This system will allow the PAK-FA detect a greater range of targets


https://rns.online/military/Rossiiskii-istrebitel-5-go-pokoleniya-osnastyat-sistemoi-obrabotki-videoizobrazhenii-Ohotnik-2016-07-29/

Let me start by saying that while im trying to be neutral, I do have a bias towards the flanker family as it is in my opinion the most beautiful warplane ever designed. With that said, I believe my question remains valid. Looking at the Su-35, in its current state, let us consider the following factual points:

1.) It is superior to all US teen series fighters and can give a good fight to the Typhoon, Rafale and possibily the JSF in Aerial combat. (Personally I think its actually stands a chance of beating every plane out there expect an F-22).
2.) It is a proven system that the Russians have experience with.
3.) It has amazing upgrade potential. A huge airframe for plenty of enhancements.
4.) It is far more affordable and economical than the T-50.
5.) It can super cruise, is super maneuverable and when used in combination with AWACS, in the hands of a skilled pilot, a team of these can establish aerial supremacy over almost all opposition.
6.) The export market for upgrades exists and production facilities already exist.

So let me get to my point. The T-50 only appears to have reduced frontal RCS as its major advantage against the Su-35. With new radars effectively making such stealth more pointless over time, does the T-50 make sense? Suppose you spent the money instead on developing a new radar and new missiles for the Su-35, you would have a proven, effective air superiority fighter that would even give the Raptor problems and all this for a fraction of the price.

The fact remains the T-50 is released at a time when perhaps it is no longer needed. I believe the money would be better spent on upgrading the flankers with new radars and missiles and then developing new bombers to replace the aging Tu-95's and Tu-22M's. Is there something key that I am missing?

Thanks in advance for your patience and answers

The fact Russia is developing pakfa and pakda, China is developing J20 and other planes, other countries around the world are developing further stealth planes or planning to buy them means those countries all believe stealth will NOT become pointless within the their lifetime, or within several decades to come.

In certain situations certain kind of stealth is more cost efficient of less cost efficient than non stealth doctrine. Perhaps not all countries will go for all stealth fleets as their defense requirement differ, but it does appear stealth as an option to have will be proliferating around the world and grow in numbers.

Pincus Shain wrote:Let me start by saying that while im trying to be neutral, I do have a bias towards the flanker family as it is in my opinion the most beautiful warplane ever designed. With that said, I believe my question remains valid. Looking at the Su-35, in its current state, let us consider the following factual points:

1.) It is superior to all US teen series fighters and can give a good fight to the Typhoon, Rafale and possibily the JSF in Aerial combat. (Personally I think its actually stands a chance of beating every plane out there expect an F-22).
2.) It is a proven system that the Russians have experience with.
3.) It has amazing upgrade potential. A huge airframe for plenty of enhancements.
4.) It is far more affordable and economical than the T-50.
5.) It can super cruise, is super maneuverable and when used in combination with AWACS, in the hands of a skilled pilot, a team of these can establish aerial supremacy over almost all opposition.
6.) The export market for upgrades exists and production facilities already exist.

So let me get to my point. The T-50 only appears to have reduced frontal RCS as its major advantage against the Su-35. With new radars effectively making such stealth more pointless over time, does the T-50 make sense? Suppose you spent the money instead on developing a new radar and new missiles for the Su-35, you would have a proven, effective air superiority fighter that would even give the Raptor problems and all this for a fraction of the price.

The fact remains the T-50 is released at a time when perhaps it is no longer needed. I believe the money would be better spent on upgrading the flankers with new radars and missiles and then developing new bombers to replace the aging Tu-95's and Tu-22M's. Is there something key that I am missing?

Thanks in advance for your patience and answers

You do have some good points however there is more to the PAK-FA than just stealth technology. Due to the T-50 being new design, it's technically better because it meets the requirements of the  Russian Air Force in the 21st century. Then there is the fact that stealth isn't becoming completely useless, you still have greater chances of surviving when your aircraft is stealthy.  The T-50 also processes some other features that would be hard to install on the Su-35  because it has a smaller wing area, which also means that the T-50 could be easier to upgrade. Conclusion: the Russian Air Force needs a 5th generation aircraft such as the PAK-FA.

eridan wrote:The fact Russia is developing pakfa and pakda, China is developing J20 and other planes, other countries around the world are developing further stealth planes or planning to buy them means those countries all believe stealth will NOT become pointless within the their lifetime, or within several decades to come.

In certain situations certain kind of stealth is more cost efficient of less cost efficient than non stealth doctrine. Perhaps not all countries will go for all stealth fleets as their defense requirement differ, but it does appear stealth as an option to have will be proliferating around the world and grow in numbers.

Russia's philosophy in the T-50 design confirms my basic physics points. They are not obsessed with getting bogus stealth perfection:

1) No 2D super duper stealth thrust nozzles that make maneuverability sub-par but give fanbois woodies

2) Plenty of rounded surfaces that violate the angular fetish of the stealth cult

3) but clearly apparent design choices made to minimize the cross section such as the tail rudders;
compare them to the billboard sized F-22 wunderwaffe wonders that scatter EM like there is no tomorrow angled or not.

It is clear to me that that the T-50 designers know more about physics than the F-22/F-35(LOL) fanbois.

kvs wrote:

It is clear to me that that the T-50 designers know more about physics than the F-22/F-35(LOL) fanbois.

This is 100% true. The idea that some forum "scholars" believe they know more than the people behind the T-50 is quite amusing.

Still though, point taken from User 1952 that the T-50 has more to offer than a reduced RCS. But with this in mind does it offer anything much more substantial than the SU-35? Technically they could both carry equally powerful radars and missiles etc. Is it so much more maneuverable that it justifies being so much more expensive than the proven flankers (upgraded ones, not the legacy ones)? The fact is that money is an issue these days with vulnerable oil prices etc.

At the same time you say Russia needs a 5th generation fighter, but I can not see why. Who would it need to fight? What can the T-50 do that an upgraded Su-35 couldn't?

Regards,

Pincus

guys i uploaded a pak fa vs f22 video
check it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBOC-B1cQo

Pincus Shain wrote:


This is 100% true. The idea that some forum "scholars" believe they know more than the people behind the T-50 is quite amusing.

Still though, point taken from User 1952 that the T-50 has more to offer than a reduced RCS. But with this in mind does it offer anything much more substantial than the SU-35? Technically they could both carry equally powerful radars and missiles etc. Is it so much more maneuverable that it justifies being so much more expensive than the proven flankers (upgraded ones, not the legacy ones)? The fact is that money is an issue these days with vulnerable oil prices etc.

At the same time you say Russia needs a 5th generation fighter, but I can not see why. Who would it need to fight? What can the T-50 do that an upgraded Su-35 couldn't?

Regards,

Pincus

The PAK-FA offers a new air-frame with means that it could be more flexible for 21st century upgrades. Plus stealth isn't going extinct, it just lost its reliability that it use to have, but an aircraft is still better with stealth than without stealth. For example, you have an Su-35 that has to face an F-22. In this example the Su-35 is installed with a photonic radar that has the same range as the apg-77(F-22's radar), the photonic radar allows you to detect stealth at the radar's maximum range. You detect the F-22 at 400 kilometers, but the problem is that with the apg-77 the F-22 can also see detect you at 400 kilometers, that's why you need stealth, so you can detect them with your photonic radar and they won't be able to detect you with their regular radar.



In the analysis above, I show you a comparison of the Su-27's radar space compared with the t-50's. Although the T-50 is about twice as far as the su-27, its radar space seems almost that of the su-27's. That was to prove that sometimes you just need a new air-frame. The bigger wing area of the T-50 along with the greater radar space boosts the lifespan of the T-50 over that of the Su-27 variants further into the 21st century. Anyways, thank you for your kind words

The facts are that the Primary fighter of Russia will be required for a range of roles... and just like the MiG-29 complimented the Su-27, the Su-35 and MiG-35 will compliment the PAK FA.
The PAK FA will have some capabilities that no non stealth aircraft will have... but the idea was never to replace all fighters with the PAK FA.

Su-35 and MiG-35 are not stop gaps until PAK FA is ready... they are fully capable aircraft in their own right... and in many cases can perform some missions better than the PAK FA.

Even just in weapons carrying capacity they are worth keeping in service and in terms of air space coverage having 1,000 aircraft, of which 300 might be PAK FAs and 300 might be Su-35s and 400 MiG-35s or some other mix is much more efficient than having 400 PAK FAs.

HM1199 wrote:guys i uploaded a pak fa vs f22 video
check it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBOC-B1cQo

Wow mate, that was excellent, I learnt a lot. Serious effort put into that.

Next time, I'd recommend giving a little bit more time on each slide, so as to be readable without pausing the video.

Everything on ones mind is here

Russia's PAK FA Stealth Fighter Jet to Receive an 'All-Seeing Eye'

The Okhotnik "provides digital image stabilization, auto detecting and auto tracking capabilities. The system includes TV and thermal image sensors, displays, remote controls and a laser ranging device," the newspaper detailed.

HM1199 wrote:guys i uploaded a pak fa vs f22 video
check it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBOC-B1cQo

Really nice video..

However , im not  sure about your stealth numbers.
SUkhoi Engineers somewhere i read , they claim in their latest information
i have seen.. they claimed that Pak-fA is not only better all around than F-22
as your video shows..

but SUkhoi engineers are saying Pak-fa is also more stealthy too , that F-22.
and the numbers they use are very different than your .000000000001  numbers
that everyone repeats about F-22..

According to SUkhoi engineers , their studies show , Pak-fa
have a radar signature between .01 to .05 , while F-22 signature is between .03 to .04.
Numbers cant remember with 100% of accuracy.. but i do remember their numbers shows
Pak-fa to be more stealthy in some angles than F-22 .  

Also , supposedly Sukhoi have in their pak-fa a stealth cover for their engines in their
end version. and also they were speaking about Plasma stealth. feature ,to blind missiles.
but not sure if you covered it ,without mentioning it. that basically blind missiles for a second or two.. perhaps is part of the lazer hack system. Pak-fa Use to deviate missiles. that you nicely
put in your video..

in any case good video.

The most impressive things i saw in that video was that Pak-fa can attack 16 planes
at same time..while F-22 only 2. that sounds a really major game changing feature (second to the jamming .blocking GPS and missiles radio guidance ),because means Russia airforce
using Pak-fa , even if less stealthy , will have the edge to be able to neutralize US missiles,
and make F-22 to miss all its attacks. While Pak-fa have missiles that are near impossible to miss with ultra violet sensors that cannot be fooled on the real target.



anyone can feel free to post what Sukhoi engineers have said of Pak-fa vs F-22
stealth comparisons.

Yup...

PAK-FA

(Indepence Day 2 fighter) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca6ARA4V0v4

"PAK FA front section final design should look like"



https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/04/27/sukhoi-t-50-pak-fa-russia/

Seems I have much reading to do from that site

I wonder when we'll see final version in the flesh?
Have been very sceptical of the claims that T-50 stealth is all that great based on the current versions, but if they improve details like in those renders I might start believing.

I have no idea where to post this so forgive me if i posted this in the wrong thread. Feel free to change it.

Russian military expert on F-22, F35 and T-50 (english subtitles):

Luq man wrote:I have no idea where to post this so forgive me if i posted this in the wrong thread. Feel free to change it.

Russian military expert on F-22, F35 and T-50 (english subtitles):

pfftt... sounds like Altanticist-Integrationist claptrap to me.... The F-35 is an expensive boondoggle and won't deliver on the inflated promises being made. Its stealth will not be effective, its dynamic performance is poor, and its combat effectiveness against modern Russian adversaries will be a HUGE dissapointment to the Natostani hordes.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Luq man wrote:I have no idea where to post this so forgive me if i posted this in the wrong thread. Feel free to change it.

Russian military expert on F-22, F35 and T-50 (english subtitles):

pfftt... sounds like Altanticist-Integrationist claptrap to me....  The F-35 is an expensive boondoggle and won't deliver on the inflated promises being made.  Its stealth will not be effective, its dynamic performance is poor, and its combat effectiveness against modern Russian adversaries will be a HUGE dissapointment to the Natostani hordes.

The F-35 reflects the bureaucratic rot eating away at NATO.   It is a design created by a committee where the loudest and most idiotic voices won all the major
choices.  Any sober advice was clearly fobbed off.    They actually thought VTOL was some sort of super-important feature and not a useless gimmick.    The
range of the F-35 is substantially smaller than the F-18 which means that Canada will replace its CF-18 fleet with a bunch of inadequate crap apparently designed
to stationed somewhere in the Middle East to engage in punitive suppression operations.  

NATO's propaganda chorus MSM and the "information for hire" ratings "agencies" such as Transparency International like to smear libel about Russia being
the most corrupt country in history while ranking narco-mafia riddle Mexico as being relatively squeaky clean.   The F-35 program proves that corruption
in NATO occurs on a massive scale.   Seriously, were the contracts signed for the F-35 by the US government totally devoid of timelines and functionality
targets?  This joke of a design is being used to milk taxpayers out of tens of billions of dollars via obvious tricks where nearly every component always needs
to be "reworked" to "work".   The F-35 is a derivative design and not humanity's first UFO.

kvs wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:

Luq man wrote:I have no idea where to post this so forgive me if i posted this in the wrong thread. Feel free to change it.

Russian military expert on F-22, F35 and T-50 (english subtitles):

pfftt... sounds like Altanticist-Integrationist claptrap to me....  The F-35 is an expensive boondoggle and won't deliver on the inflated promises being made.  Its stealth will not be effective, its dynamic performance is poor, and its combat effectiveness against modern Russian adversaries will be a HUGE dissapointment to the Natostani hordes.

The F-35 reflects the bureaucratic rot eating away at NATO.   It is a design created by a committee where the loudest and most idiotic voices won all the major
choices.  Any sober advice was clearly fobbed off.    They actually thought VTOL was some sort of super-important feature and not a useless gimmick.    The
range of the F-35 is substantially smaller than the F-18 which means that Canada will replace its CF-18 fleet with a bunch of inadequate crap apparently designed
to stationed somewhere in the Middle East to engage in punitive suppression operations.  

NATO's propaganda chorus MSM and the "information for hire" ratings "agencies" such as Transparency International like to smear libel about Russia being
the most corrupt country in history while ranking narco-mafia riddle Mexico as being relatively squeaky clean.   The F-35 program proves that corruption
in NATO occurs on a massive scale.   Seriously, were the contracts signed for the F-35 by the US government totally devoid of timelines and functionality
targets?  This joke of a design is being used to milk taxpayers out of tens of billions of dollars via obvious tricks where nearly every component always needs
to be "reworked" to "work".   The F-35 is a derivative design and not humanity's first UFO.

I've been reading through the running commentary on the F-35 at keypub, it's quite interesting really. An awful lot of cost justifying etc. and not much to show for it. I'm erring toward the opinion that after many years they will have a workable product in some form or other... but how that abomination will stand up against the by-then multitude of Su-35s and serial-PAK FAs in a hostile Russian AD dominated world... well, that is another question entirely. It's also obscenely software heavy (A driver to fire the gun?) and begs the question of how it will contend with even a modicum of counter-EW. Krasuha-4, Richag-AV look forward to these encounters I am sure.

2nd stage engines ready - industrial source

The industry reported a new engine ready for a fighter PAK-FA

However, serial deliveries of the T-50 must begin with a new engine of the second stage, which was called in the open, "article 30" sources. Compared with the AL-41F1, the engine should be increased thrust (up to 17,5-19,5 tons), increased fuel efficiency and reduced lifecycle costs.

PAK-FA T-50 To Get A New 5th Gen Engine, Production Will Start In 2018

So the proper engines are ahead of schedule & are likely to be available for start of production instead of first models having the temp engine?