The Situation in the Ukraine. #15

Rodinazombie wrote:

whir wrote:

Tак Точно wrote:06.06.15 Kiev. Thousands of people demand the resignation of Poroshenko and authorities

Meh.

Its all well and good that are are protesting against the government because of how shitty their lives have become, but i dont see a single word of complaint about that same government murdering their countrymen a few hundred miles away.

They make me sick.

flamming_python wrote:

Fits with an observation I read not long ago; that Kievians are more and more sick of their government, but continue to show little remorse for their government's actions in the Donbass or sympathy with the people there.
Hatred of Russians overcomes all barriers apparently.

Personally I don't care about their reasons, I care only that dissent is rising and about how soon the govenrment can be overthrown; so that the war can stop and the Donbass can be free.
The Kievans and the rest of the Ukraine can keep their hatred and bile; at the end of the day they'll be the ones facing the fallout from the continued collapse of their own economy and even more political anarchy; their reasons and opinions are ultimately not important, the stage is already set.

I know plenty of good Kievians BTW. I hope they'll have enough sense to leave the country; if they need my help I'll give it.

flamming_python wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:

Meh.

Its all well and good that are are protesting against the government because of how shitty their lives have become, but i dont see a single word of complaint about that same government murdering their countrymen a few hundred miles away.

They make me sick.

Fits with an observation I read not long ago; that Kievians are more and more sick of their government, but continue to show little remorse for their government's actions in the Donbass or sympathy with the people there.
Hatred of Russians overcomes all barriers apparently.

Personally I don't care about their reasons, I care only that dissent is rising and about how soon the govenrment can be overthrown; so that the war can stop and the Donbass can be free.
The Kievans and the rest of the Ukraine can keep their hatred and bile; at the end of the day they'll be the ones facing the fallout from the continued collapse of their own economy and even more political anarchy; their reasons and opinions are ultimately not important, the stage is already set.

I know plenty of good Kievians BTW. I hope they'll have enough sense to leave the country; if they need my help I'll give it.

Neutrality wrote:Not a single word about this in our press. It's not important to report how pissed people are with Poroshenko's policies. Hell, the brutal beatdown of the LGBT march today wasn't even covered. It only counts when Russia doesn't allow it

PapaDragon wrote:

OminousSpudd wrote:.
......................................

Well thank you for calling us Balkan Boys western Europeans.  I think that may have upset some western Europeans in the proces though...

Novorossia will not fall, after last August and January we can say that with decent amount of certainty.

Ukraine as a failed state is very harmful for Europe but for Russia it's actually beneficial. If that place implodes then kaviar munchers will have no problems with remaking that place according to their needs with no military involment and with very low financial investment to boot.

Vann7 wrote:People should take a loot at history.. of US undercover wars and interventionism..
against Soviets..

In the next report.. shows How in Public American Government was demanding the soviets
to Leave Afganistan.. while at the same time undercovertly ,they were doing sabotage against
soviets to keep them in Afganistan..  

And also explain how before the soviets Invaded Afganistan..
Americans had a plan to provoke Soviets Invading it..

In other words the US government provoked Soviets ,into a war with afganistan and later
to maintan them there Inside afganistan..and not leave..through Attacks on Soviet Union territory by muslins..

So the invasion helps american propaganda and narrative to demonize Russia.. while keeping them inside Afganistan helps to drain their economy.. and this is exactly what they are now trying to do in Ukraine..  Soviets Invaded Afganistan in response of US undercover attacks from there to soviet territories.

Said in other words.. The american government was in front of Cameras and media
condemning Russia invasion.. but behind the cameras they were celebrating and cheering
Russia invasion and using their money to keep Soviets pinned down in Afganistan ,to drain their economy.

http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150602/1022855357.html

And this is exactly what they are doing in Ukraine.. to create a new attrition war ,with NATO
fighting RUssia to the last ukrainian and arming them. But they really miscalculated and it did not happened.  Putin actually Reversed the roles.. and is now Americans and Europe the ones paying the bigger price for maintaining Ukraine economy while they continue a war..  

US and Kiev (at orders of americans).. have been intentionally provoking Russia to invade Ukraine. . Because this will help US and anglozionist allies in their demonization propaganda
of RUssia.. with the help of **fabricated massacres and warcrimes reports**  against Ukrainians that will be blamed on Russia. exactly as the Malasyan plane was blamed on Putin.. but failed to convince for the reason of Russia open ,generous and almost friendly Aptitude towards Ukraine..
So this is why people believed Putin sold the rebels.. but is diplomacy tactics to protect Russia from allowing United States to take full advantage of the ukrainian conflict . to demonize Russia.

So in that report you will see how this Old tactics of creating a trap for Russia ,are being Re-Used again in Ukraine..  If Russia invade as Americans really hope to see..Russia will be pushed
to continue invading beyond Donetsk and Lugansk.. easily by genocide of Ethnic Russians in other cities.. done by the CIANazis.. And this will also help in the propaganda of NATO media to demonize Russia. and create a united front in europe against "Russia agression".

Fortunately Putin is more clever and have done things undercover.. and even signed a peace deal ,that essentially looks likes a major betray of the Rebels.. is a master piece Agreement that puts the Ball in Urkraine to do Reforms if they want to retake Donetsk and Lugansk.  The Donetsk and Lugansk ministers knowing that Ukraine will NOT do reforms ..agree to run with the game.  

Unfortunately is not perfect decision ,because Ukraine continues shelling and killing civilians..
But if Putin is now forced to invade.. it will be more harder for Obama and its government to
run its propaganda.  Russia can simply use for a small time its airforce. Push the ukies 20 to 30km farther from rebels cities.

When it comes to Tansmitia is more complicate Russia could be forced to invade to invade odessa but the good news is that it looks like Russia already was expecting that move..and
had a plan. and that people in Odessa will receive Russia with open arms.

For me the biggest problem is Ukraine Nuclear reactors.. Russia and the Rebels needs to stay away of it..as far from possible.. because any accident will be blamed on Russia and Rebels..
and Kiev controlling 100% of the information in media that Ukrainians see is not going to help.

This is why i think.. that even if Russia invade ,it will have to be temporary short time only to restore order and then leave as soon as possible..and demand kiev to start reforms. and not allow the Rebels to go far beyond their controlled zones.. Until Kiev collapse.. and or
the entire country start a rebelion and Russia is welcome to interfere by most ukrainians.

The conflict in Marinika i really think the Rebels only intention was to destroy the Ukies artillery and punish them and beat and later ordered to retreat to maintain the Minsk-2 agreement open.
Is a city too close to Mariupol and from there they can be blamed of shelling civilians as before.

TASS wrote:9 civilians, 35 militias killed in DPR over past week — human rights ombudsman
World June 05, 21:53 UTC+3

Earlier on Friday, DPR defence ministry spokesman Eduard Basurin said twenty servicemen had been killed and 99 more had been wounded in hostilities in the town of Maryinka

MOSCOW, June 5. /TASS/. As many as 44 people, both militias and civilians, have been killed in shelling in the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) over past week, the DPR human rights ombudsperson said in a report issued on Friday.

"In a period from May 30 to June 5, 2015, nine civilians and 35 servicement have beek killed in combat operations," the document said. As many as 48 civilians and 29 militias have been hospitalized with wounds.

Earlier on Friday, DPR defence ministry spokesman Eduard Basurin said twenty servicemen had been killed and 99 more had been wounded in hostilities in the town of Maryinka. Meanwhile, DPR head Alexander Zakharchenko said Ukraine’s losses in manpower had exceeded 400 servicemen, more than 1,000 had been wounded.

High-intensity battlefield involving Ukrainian troops and militias was reported in Maryinka near Donetsk on Wednesday. According to the spokesman for defence ministry of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, Eduard Basurin, "it was a large-scale provocation by Ukrainian troops" aimed at diverting attention from preparations for a large-scale operation in the Luhansk region.

The 13-point Package of Measures on implementation of the September 2014 Minsk agreements included an agreement on cessation of fire from February 15, withdrawal of heavy armaments, as well as measures on long-term political settlement of the situation in Ukraine, including enforcement of a special self-rule status for certain districts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Continue reading.

TASS wrote:Ukraine troops shelling DPR village after OSCE observers leave, says local official
World June 05, 19:55 UTC+3

According to the republic’s defense ministry, Ukrainian troops have violated truce 46 times over the past 24 hours

MOSCOW, June 5. /TASS/. Ukrainian troops have resumed the shelling of Telmanovo district of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic shortly after observers from the OSCE mission left, the head of the regional administration, Sergey Ivanov, reports.

According to Ivanov, they used heavy weaponry to shell the settlement of Grigoryevskoye. "Nobody has been injured as of yet," the Donetsk News Agency quoted him as saying.

He said residents of a neighborhood remained without electricity supply.

In earlier reports, Ivanov said a four-year-old boy was killed and four civilians were wounded in the shelling overnight to June 5.

According to the republic’s defense ministry, Ukrainian troops have violated truce 46 times over the past 24 hours.

They used multiple rocket launcher systems three times, and heavy artillery was used 21 times. A ministry official said 16 DPR settlements had been damaged in the shelling. Continue reading.

Sputnik wrote:International Monitors Report Explosions in East Ukraine's Donetsk
EUROPE 02:25 07.06.2015(updated 02:54 07.06.2015)

OSCE monitors reported numerous explosions at and around the Donetsk airport in eastern Ukraine, pointing to violations of the existing ceasefire between the army and militias.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Monitors from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) on Saturday reported numerous explosions at and around the Donetsk airport in eastern Ukraine, pointing to violations of the existing ceasefire between the army and militias, their latest report said.
The OSCE Special Monitoring Mission (SMM) to Ukraine said that on Friday "the SMM observed a total of 88 explosions, most of which were part of an exchange of fire…"

According to monitors, government troops deployed near the international airport, northwest of Donetsk, exchanged fire with local self-defense forces stationed immediately to the east of the airport.

"The SMM assessed that the weapons being fired were artillery over 100mm," the report said. This came despite the existing ceasefire deal that had both warring parties withdraw their heavy weapons from the line of contact. Continue reading.

wrote:Putin’s Secret Warriors: Russian Soldiers Sent to Fight in Ukraine
BY MAKSYMILIAN CZUPERSKI , JOHN HERBST , ALINA POLYAKOVA , AND DAMON WILSON 6/6/15 AT 11:04 AM

Extracted from the Atlantic Council report Hiding In Plain Sight: Putin’s War In Ukraine.

On March 2, 2015, U.S. Army Europe Commander Ben Hodges estimated that 12,000 Russian soldiers, including “military advisers, weapons operators and combat troops,” are active in eastern Ukraine.

There have been hundreds, likely thousands, of Russian citizens who have voluntarily crossed the border into Ukraine on their own accord. Putin has confirmed this, and many eager Russians even filled out online applications to join the separatist ranks—that is how easy it is to become a separatist fighter in Ukraine.

The Russian military is sending its soldiers across the border to mix with Russian-instigated separatist forces in Ukraine. Once in eastern Ukraine, these soldiers are no longer considered Russian; rather they are told to refer to themselves as “local defense forces,” aiding the separatist soldiers with additional manpower and Russian equipment.

The Russian government denies that regular Russian soldiers are fighting and dying throughout eastern Ukraine. However, the presence of Russian soldiers on Ukrainian territory has become undeniable following the steady stream of coffins returning to Russia under the label “Cargo 200.”

A series of exposé reports from local Russian news outlets, and a number of cases in which Russian soldiers accidentally revealed their presence in Ukraine on social media, confirm that the regular Russian military is active in Ukraine. Both Western and Russian journalists have uncovered the troubling details of active Russian soldiers who have died or suffered serious injuries in Ukraine.

These reports include not only eye-witness accounts and photographs of Russian soldiers in Ukraine, but also interviews with the grief-stricken parents whose sons died fighting among the so-called local separatists in eastern Ukraine.

Russian soldiers enter Ukraine from nearby border camps. As described in numerous interviews with Russian soldiers who have fought in Ukraine, commanders will order soldiers to conceal the identifying features of military vehicles, remove insignia from uniforms and finally travel across the border to join separatist forces in eastern Ukraine.

There are also reports of Russian soldiers quitting the Russian army out of fear of being sent to fight in Ukraine under pressure from commanding officers.

Despite an orchestrated campaign from the Russian government, the coffins arriving from Ukraine cannot be hidden. The following incidents have been confirmed through investigative journalism by independent Russian and Western media outlets: Continue reading.

Bloomberg wrote:Ukraine Conflict Senior Mediator Resigns as Truce Crumbles
by Henry MeyerAndy HoffmanJosh Wingrove June 6, 2015 — 4:54 PM CEST Updated on June 6, 2015 — 6:42 PM CEST

The senior international mediator in Ukraine quit as fighting worsened in the more than one year-old conflict between pro-Russian rebels and Ukrainian forces.

Heidi Tagliavini, a Swiss diplomat who played a key role in negotiating a February cease-fire and peace deal, has decided to resign as special envoy of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, Switzerland’s Foreign Ministry said Saturday.

The resignation came as Canada’s Prime Minister Stephen Harper pledged officers and funding to bolster the Ukrainian police force during a visit to Kiev, in his country’s latest show of support for Ukraine in its standoff with Russia.

“Tagliavini’s resignation reflects her growing frustration and is another sign that the peace process is basically dead,” Joerg Forbrig, a senior program director at the German Marshall Fund of the U.S. in Berlin, said by telephone. “The expectation is we will see an escalation this summer.” Continue reading.

Vox Populi Evo wrote:Captured Ukr. Recon. Operative: Ukr Army was the first to open fire on Marinka | ENG DE SUBS

Vox Populi Evo wrote:Battle for Mar'inka. Injury of "Pyatnashka" brigade fighter, June 3rd | Eng Subs

Дивись Інфо wrote:Poroshenko - x @ Lo - AC rally in Lviv

A Red Rover wrote:Donbas Dispatch #14: Mozgovoy's assassination

24 Канал wrote:A resident of Zaporozhye went to work to paint couples ...

flamming_python wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:

whir wrote:

Tак Точно wrote:06.06.15 Kiev. Thousands of people demand the resignation of Poroshenko and authorities

Meh.

Its all well and good that are are protesting against the government because of how shitty their lives have become, but i dont see a single word of complaint about that same government murdering their countrymen a few hundred miles away.

They make me sick.

Fits with an observation I read not long ago; that Kievians are more and more sick of their government, but continue to show little remorse for their government's actions in the Donbass or sympathy with the people there.
Hatred of Russians overcomes all barriers apparently.

Personally I don't care about their reasons, I care only that dissent is rising and about how soon the govenrment can be overthrown; so that the war can stop and the Donbass can be free.
The Kievans and the rest of the Ukraine can keep their hatred and bile; at the end of the day they'll be the ones facing the fallout from the continued collapse of their own economy and even more political anarchy; their reasons and opinions are ultimately not important, the stage is already set.

I know plenty of good Kievians BTW. I hope they'll have enough sense to leave the country; if they need my help I'll give it.

Rodinazombie wrote:

If it were up to me, russia would have attacked ukraine after the odessa fire last year, or at the latest when they started shelling civilians in slavyansk, so, as you say, its a good job its not me in the kremlin either.

What we all desire for ukraine, is for them to go through a process like germany went through at the end of the war. A complete and utter destruction of their ideology and to make them pay for their crimes, to rub their faces in the dirt of their actions and force them to come to terms with what they and their government have done.

Thats only possible however if there is a consensus amongst the major players, ie usa eu and russia, if russia tries to do that alone the ukrainians will reject it and see it as further suppression and aggression from the russians, their ideology wont die because there are other major players giving voice to 'their truth'. Russia can go in and kill everyone who screams 'slava ukraine' but that wont kill the idea, it will return.

Ukraine needs to heal itself, nobody can do that for it. As ive said before though, i still think russias line is too soft on ukraine.

BKP wrote:

Vann7 wrote:People should take a loot at history.. of US undercover wars and interventionism..
against Soviets..

In the next report.. shows How in Public American Government was demanding the soviets
to Leave Afganistan.. while at the same time undercovertly ,they were doing sabotage against
soviets to keep them in Afganistan..

And also explain how before the soviets Invaded Afganistan..
Americans had a plan to provoke Soviets Invading it..

In other words the US government provoked Soviets ,into a war with afganistan and later
to maintan them there Inside afganistan..and not leave..through Attacks on Soviet Union territory by muslins..

So the invasion helps american propaganda and narrative to demonize Russia.. while keeping them inside Afganistan helps to drain their economy.. and this is exactly what they are now trying to do in Ukraine.. Soviets Invaded Afganistan in response of US undercover attacks from there to soviet territories.

Said in other words.. The american government was in front of Cameras and media
condemning Russia invasion.. but behind the cameras they were celebrating and cheering
Russia invasion and using their money to keep Soviets pinned down in Afganistan ,to drain their economy.

http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150602/1022855357.html

And this is exactly what they are doing in Ukraine.. to create a new attrition war ,with NATO
fighting RUssia to the last ukrainian and arming them. But they really miscalculated and it did not happened. Putin actually Reversed the roles.. and is now Americans and Europe the ones paying the bigger price for maintaining Ukraine economy while they continue a war..

US and Kiev (at orders of americans).. have been intentionally provoking Russia to invade Ukraine. . Because this will help US and anglozionist allies in their demonization propaganda
of RUssia.. with the help of **fabricated massacres and warcrimes reports** against Ukrainians that will be blamed on Russia. exactly as the Malasyan plane was blamed on Putin.. but failed to convince for the reason of Russia open ,generous and almost friendly Aptitude towards Ukraine..
So this is why people believed Putin sold the rebels.. but is diplomacy tactics to protect Russia from allowing United States to take full advantage of the ukrainian conflict . to demonize Russia.

So in that report you will see how this Old tactics of creating a trap for Russia ,are being Re-Used again in Ukraine.. If Russia invade as Americans really hope to see..Russia will be pushed
to continue invading beyond Donetsk and Lugansk.. easily by genocide of Ethnic Russians in other cities.. done by the CIANazis.. And this will also help in the propaganda of NATO media to demonize Russia. and create a united front in europe against "Russia agression".

Fortunately Putin is more clever and have done things undercover.. and even signed a peace deal ,that essentially looks likes a major betray of the Rebels.. is a master piece Agreement that puts the Ball in Urkraine to do Reforms if they want to retake Donetsk and Lugansk. The Donetsk and Lugansk ministers knowing that Ukraine will NOT do reforms ..agree to run with the game.

Unfortunately is not perfect decision ,because Ukraine continues shelling and killing civilians..
But if Putin is now forced to invade.. it will be more harder for Obama and its government to
run its propaganda. Russia can simply use for a small time its airforce. Push the ukies 20 to 30km farther from rebels cities.

When it comes to Tansmitia is more complicate Russia could be forced to invade to invade odessa but the good news is that it looks like Russia already was expecting that move..and
had a plan. and that people in Odessa will receive Russia with open arms.

For me the biggest problem is Ukraine Nuclear reactors.. Russia and the Rebels needs to stay away of it..as far from possible.. because any accident will be blamed on Russia and Rebels..
and Kiev controlling 100% of the information in media that Ukrainians see is not going to help.

This is why i think.. that even if Russia invade ,it will have to be temporary short time only to restore order and then leave as soon as possible..and demand kiev to start reforms. and not allow the Rebels to go far beyond their controlled zones.. Until Kiev collapse.. and or
the entire country start a rebelion and Russia is welcome to interfere by most ukrainians.

The conflict in Marinika i really think the Rebels only intention was to destroy the Ukies artillery and punish them and beat and later ordered to retreat to maintain the Minsk-2 agreement open.
Is a city too close to Mariupol and from there they can be blamed of shelling civilians as before.

Agree, especially with the part I bolded, and I've said as much before. IMO, Moscow's strategy is the correct one. It is the one that is most likely to lead to eventual (significant) de-nazification of Ukraine.

I believe this because the ideological sickness that has now manifested its natural consequences in Ukraine first incubated for decades, at least. After enough Ukrainians have lived with those consequences for a sufficient length of time their attitudes will start to change at a fundamental level.

This is unfortunate but necessary; if the Russians had just immediately moved in and imposed their own order, that natural process would not work its way through. Instead, much of the animosity could and would be shifted to those portrayed as "invaders" oppressing Ukrainian choice (again). Well, let them have their choice and live with it. Moscow seems to be betting this thesis will generate a real and lasting antithesis.

The way I see it, the hard part of the strategy is that some of the people to whom we are most sympathetic are going to die in the meantime. However, it was sadly unavoidable that people were going to die regardless. It takes emotional discipline to never forget this fact and stick to the strategy. This is why I'm glad that Putin and his team are in charge as opposed to someone like, well, me, for instance. I'm too much of a hothead, and would likely have played right into the neocon trap that was set. I think what you posted identifies that trap very accurately.

P.S., Thanks to those who finally +1'd me. I was starting to think I'd be stuck at "1" forever.

Rodinazombie wrote:

If it were up to me, russia would have attacked ukraine after the odessa fire last year, or at the latest when they started shelling civilians in slavyansk, so, as you say, its a good job its not me in the kremlin either.

What we all desire for ukraine, is for them to go through a process like germany went through at the end of the war. A complete and utter destruction of their ideology and to make them pay for their crimes, to rub their faces in the dirt of their actions and force them to come to terms with what they and their government have done.

Thats only possible however if there is a consensus amongst the major players, ie usa eu and russia, if russia tries to do that alone the ukrainians will reject it and see it as further suppression and aggression from the russians, their ideology wont die because there are other major players giving voice to 'their truth'. Russia can go in and kill everyone who screams 'slava ukraine' but that wont kill the idea, it will return.

Ukraine needs to heal itself, nobody can do that for it. As ive said before though, i still think russias line is too soft on ukraine.

flamming_python wrote:

BKP wrote:

Vann7 wrote:People should take a loot at history.. of US undercover wars and interventionism..
against Soviets..

In the next report.. shows How in Public American Government was demanding the soviets
to Leave Afganistan.. while at the same time undercovertly ,they were doing sabotage against
soviets to keep them in Afganistan..  

And also explain how before the soviets Invaded Afganistan..
Americans had a plan to provoke Soviets Invading it..

In other words the US government provoked Soviets ,into a war with afganistan and later
to maintan them there Inside afganistan..and not leave..through Attacks on Soviet Union territory by muslins..

So the invasion helps american propaganda and narrative to demonize Russia.. while keeping them inside Afganistan helps to drain their economy.. and this is exactly what they are now trying to do in Ukraine..  Soviets Invaded Afganistan in response of US undercover attacks from there to soviet territories.

Said in other words.. The american government was in front of Cameras and media
condemning Russia invasion.. but behind the cameras they were celebrating and cheering
Russia invasion and using their money to keep Soviets pinned down in Afganistan ,to drain their economy.

http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150602/1022855357.html

And this is exactly what they are doing in Ukraine.. to create a new attrition war ,with NATO
fighting RUssia to the last ukrainian and arming them. But they really miscalculated and it did not happened.  Putin actually Reversed the roles.. and is now Americans and Europe the ones paying the bigger price for maintaining Ukraine economy while they continue a war..  

US and Kiev (at orders of americans).. have been intentionally provoking Russia to invade Ukraine. . Because this will help US and anglozionist allies in their demonization propaganda
of RUssia.. with the help of **fabricated massacres and warcrimes reports**  against Ukrainians that will be blamed on Russia. exactly as the Malasyan plane was blamed on Putin.. but failed to convince for the reason of Russia open ,generous and almost friendly Aptitude towards Ukraine..
So this is why people believed Putin sold the rebels.. but is diplomacy tactics to protect Russia from allowing United States to take full advantage of the ukrainian conflict . to demonize Russia.

So in that report you will see how this Old tactics of creating a trap for Russia ,are being Re-Used again in Ukraine..  If Russia invade as Americans really hope to see..Russia will be pushed
to continue invading beyond Donetsk and Lugansk.. easily by genocide of Ethnic Russians in other cities.. done by the CIANazis.. And this will also help in the propaganda of NATO media to demonize Russia. and create a united front in europe against "Russia agression".

Fortunately Putin is more clever and have done things undercover.. and even signed a peace deal ,that essentially looks likes a major betray of the Rebels.. is a master piece Agreement that puts the Ball in Urkraine to do Reforms if they want to retake Donetsk and Lugansk.  The Donetsk and Lugansk ministers knowing that Ukraine will NOT do reforms ..agree to run with the game.  

Unfortunately is not perfect decision ,because Ukraine continues shelling and killing civilians..
But if Putin is now forced to invade.. it will be more harder for Obama and its government to
run its propaganda.  Russia can simply use for a small time its airforce. Push the ukies 20 to 30km farther from rebels cities.

When it comes to Tansmitia is more complicate Russia could be forced to invade to invade odessa but the good news is that it looks like Russia already was expecting that move..and
had a plan. and that people in Odessa will receive Russia with open arms.

For me the biggest problem is Ukraine Nuclear reactors.. Russia and the Rebels needs to stay away of it..as far from possible.. because any accident will be blamed on Russia and Rebels..
and Kiev controlling 100% of the information in media that Ukrainians see is not going to help.

This is why i think.. that even if Russia invade ,it will have to be temporary short time only to restore order and then leave as soon as possible..and demand kiev to start reforms. and not allow the Rebels to go far beyond their controlled zones.. Until Kiev collapse.. and or
the entire country start a rebelion and Russia is welcome to interfere by most ukrainians.

The conflict in Marinika i really think the Rebels only intention was to destroy the Ukies artillery and punish them and beat and later ordered to retreat to maintain the Minsk-2 agreement open.
Is a city too close to Mariupol and from there they can be blamed of shelling civilians as before.

Agree, especially with the part I bolded, and I've said as much before. IMO, Moscow's strategy is the correct one. It is the one that is most likely to lead to eventual (significant) de-nazification of Ukraine.

I believe this because the ideological sickness that has now manifested its natural consequences in Ukraine first incubated for decades, at least. After enough Ukrainians have lived with those consequences for a sufficient length of time their attitudes will start to change at a fundamental level.

This is unfortunate but necessary; if the Russians had just immediately moved in and imposed their own order, that natural process would not work its way through. Instead, much of the animosity could and would be shifted to those portrayed as "invaders" oppressing Ukrainian choice (again). Well, let them have their choice and live with it. Moscow seems to be betting this thesis will generate a real and lasting antithesis.

The way I see it, the hard part of the strategy is that some of the people to whom we are most sympathetic are going to die in the meantime. However, it was sadly unavoidable that people were going to die regardless. It takes emotional discipline to never forget this fact and stick to the strategy. This is why I'm glad that Putin and his team are in charge as opposed to someone like, well, me, for instance. I'm too much of a hothead, and would likely have played right into the neocon trap that was set. I think what you posted identifies that trap very accurately.

P.S., Thanks to those who finally +1'd me. I was starting to think I'd be stuck at "1" forever.

It is the correct strategy, but the main thing is not de-Nazificiation of the Ukraine (not our problem), but avoiding avoiding our own commitment into this war while the US/EU foot the bill, and avoiding becoming an 'invader' that the Ukrainian government can use to rally its people with (although it's still trying to do just that).

Rodinazombie wrote:

If it were up to me, russia would have attacked ukraine after the odessa fire last year, or at the latest when they started shelling civilians in slavyansk, so, as you say, its a good job its not me in the kremlin either.

What we all desire for ukraine, is for them to go through a process like germany went through at the end of the war. A complete and utter destruction of their ideology and to make them pay for their crimes, to rub their faces in the dirt of their actions and force them to come to terms with what they and their government have done.

Thats only possible however if there is a consensus amongst the major players, ie usa eu and russia, if russia tries to do that alone the ukrainians will reject it and see it as further suppression and aggression from the russians, their ideology wont die because there are other major players giving voice to 'their truth'. Russia can go in and kill everyone who screams 'slava ukraine' but that wont kill the idea, it will return.

Ukraine needs to heal itself, nobody can do that for it. As ive said before though, i still think russias line is too soft on ukraine.

Nope, nope, don't care.

Don't care about the Ukraine's bloody illness or its Nazi problem or anything else. Their country, not mine.

Why cure it? Just so the Ukraine can again become a burden to subsidize for Russia, with our funds feeding more nationalism in the shadows?
Or perhaps it would care to restart the same game of trying to sit on 2 chairs at once; which will make it more than useless for any Russian interests.

At this point there is nothing left in the Ukraine for Russia. There were/are industries, but they're older and rustier with each passing year; give them another 2-3 years and they will go extinct; meanwhile Russia has already started investment into its own capacities and ridding of all dependence will be completed in at most; 4-5 years time. Why should we go back to the Ukraine after that?
The country is fraught only with problems, and sure-fire ways of losing money. It's like a Afghanistan in that sense
I would much rather the West keep it, honestly, and let it be a burdon onto them.

I don't think it will become a totally failed state, it does have some cohesion. But if banditry and so on becomes an issue on Russian borders; than it's always possible to just take over that wall that the Ukrs have been building, would serve the purpose fine; along with helicopter patrols, border guards, etc...

The only thing I care about is stopping the war. Kharkov, Odessa, etc... can stay in the Ukraine - no-one's going to bail them out nor should they; consenquences of their own inaction.

Karl Haushofer wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

BKP wrote:

Vann7 wrote:People should take a loot at history.. of US undercover wars and interventionism..
against Soviets..

In the next report.. shows How in Public American Government was demanding the soviets
to Leave Afganistan.. while at the same time undercovertly ,they were doing sabotage against
soviets to keep them in Afganistan..  

And also explain how before the soviets Invaded Afganistan..
Americans had a plan to provoke Soviets Invading it..

In other words the US government provoked Soviets ,into a war with afganistan and later
to maintan them there Inside afganistan..and not leave..through Attacks on Soviet Union territory by muslins..

So the invasion helps american propaganda and narrative to demonize Russia.. while keeping them inside Afganistan helps to drain their economy.. and this is exactly what they are now trying to do in Ukraine..  Soviets Invaded Afganistan in response of US undercover attacks from there to soviet territories.

Said in other words.. The american government was in front of Cameras and media
condemning Russia invasion.. but behind the cameras they were celebrating and cheering
Russia invasion and using their money to keep Soviets pinned down in Afganistan ,to drain their economy.

http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150602/1022855357.html

And this is exactly what they are doing in Ukraine.. to create a new attrition war ,with NATO
fighting RUssia to the last ukrainian and arming them. But they really miscalculated and it did not happened.  Putin actually Reversed the roles.. and is now Americans and Europe the ones paying the bigger price for maintaining Ukraine economy while they continue a war..  

US and Kiev (at orders of americans).. have been intentionally provoking Russia to invade Ukraine. . Because this will help US and anglozionist allies in their demonization propaganda
of RUssia.. with the help of **fabricated massacres and warcrimes reports**  against Ukrainians that will be blamed on Russia. exactly as the Malasyan plane was blamed on Putin.. but failed to convince for the reason of Russia open ,generous and almost friendly Aptitude towards Ukraine..
So this is why people believed Putin sold the rebels.. but is diplomacy tactics to protect Russia from allowing United States to take full advantage of the ukrainian conflict . to demonize Russia.

So in that report you will see how this Old tactics of creating a trap for Russia ,are being Re-Used again in Ukraine..  If Russia invade as Americans really hope to see..Russia will be pushed
to continue invading beyond Donetsk and Lugansk.. easily by genocide of Ethnic Russians in other cities.. done by the CIANazis.. And this will also help in the propaganda of NATO media to demonize Russia. and create a united front in europe against "Russia agression".

Fortunately Putin is more clever and have done things undercover.. and even signed a peace deal ,that essentially looks likes a major betray of the Rebels.. is a master piece Agreement that puts the Ball in Urkraine to do Reforms if they want to retake Donetsk and Lugansk.  The Donetsk and Lugansk ministers knowing that Ukraine will NOT do reforms ..agree to run with the game.  

Unfortunately is not perfect decision ,because Ukraine continues shelling and killing civilians..
But if Putin is now forced to invade.. it will be more harder for Obama and its government to
run its propaganda.  Russia can simply use for a small time its airforce. Push the ukies 20 to 30km farther from rebels cities.

When it comes to Tansmitia is more complicate Russia could be forced to invade to invade odessa but the good news is that it looks like Russia already was expecting that move..and
had a plan. and that people in Odessa will receive Russia with open arms.

For me the biggest problem is Ukraine Nuclear reactors.. Russia and the Rebels needs to stay away of it..as far from possible.. because any accident will be blamed on Russia and Rebels..
and Kiev controlling 100% of the information in media that Ukrainians see is not going to help.

This is why i think.. that even if Russia invade ,it will have to be temporary short time only to restore order and then leave as soon as possible..and demand kiev to start reforms. and not allow the Rebels to go far beyond their controlled zones.. Until Kiev collapse.. and or
the entire country start a rebelion and Russia is welcome to interfere by most ukrainians.

The conflict in Marinika i really think the Rebels only intention was to destroy the Ukies artillery and punish them and beat and later ordered to retreat to maintain the Minsk-2 agreement open.
Is a city too close to Mariupol and from there they can be blamed of shelling civilians as before.

Agree, especially with the part I bolded, and I've said as much before. IMO, Moscow's strategy is the correct one. It is the one that is most likely to lead to eventual (significant) de-nazification of Ukraine.

I believe this because the ideological sickness that has now manifested its natural consequences in Ukraine first incubated for decades, at least. After enough Ukrainians have lived with those consequences for a sufficient length of time their attitudes will start to change at a fundamental level.

This is unfortunate but necessary; if the Russians had just immediately moved in and imposed their own order, that natural process would not work its way through. Instead, much of the animosity could and would be shifted to those portrayed as "invaders" oppressing Ukrainian choice (again). Well, let them have their choice and live with it. Moscow seems to be betting this thesis will generate a real and lasting antithesis.

The way I see it, the hard part of the strategy is that some of the people to whom we are most sympathetic are going to die in the meantime. However, it was sadly unavoidable that people were going to die regardless. It takes emotional discipline to never forget this fact and stick to the strategy. This is why I'm glad that Putin and his team are in charge as opposed to someone like, well, me, for instance. I'm too much of a hothead, and would likely have played right into the neocon trap that was set. I think what you posted identifies that trap very accurately.

P.S., Thanks to those who finally +1'd me. I was starting to think I'd be stuck at "1" forever.

It is the correct strategy, but the main thing is not de-Nazificiation of the Ukraine (not our problem), but avoiding avoiding our own commitment into this war while the US/EU foot the bill, and avoiding becoming an 'invader' that the Ukrainian government can use to rally its people with (although it's still trying to do just that).

Rodinazombie wrote:

If it were up to me, russia would have attacked ukraine after the odessa fire last year, or at the latest when they started shelling civilians in slavyansk, so, as you say, its a good job its not me in the kremlin either.

What we all desire for ukraine, is for them to go through a process like germany went through at the end of the war. A complete and utter destruction of their ideology and to make them pay for their crimes, to rub their faces in the dirt of their actions and force them to come to terms with what they and their government have done.

Thats only possible however if there is a consensus amongst the major players, ie usa eu and russia, if russia tries to do that alone the ukrainians will reject it and see it as further suppression and aggression from the russians, their ideology wont die because there are other major players giving voice to 'their truth'. Russia can go in and kill everyone who screams 'slava ukraine' but that wont kill the idea, it will return.

Ukraine needs to heal itself, nobody can do that for it. As ive said before though, i still think russias line is too soft on ukraine.

Nope, nope, don't care.

Don't care about the Ukraine's bloody illness or its Nazi problem or anything else. Their country, not mine.

Why cure it? Just so the Ukraine can again become a burden to subsidize for Russia, with our funds feeding more nationalism in the shadows?
Or perhaps it would care to restart the same game of trying to sit on 2 chairs at once; which will make it more than useless for any Russian interests.

At this point there is nothing left in the Ukraine for Russia. There were/are industries, but they're older and rustier with each passing year; give them another 2-3 years and they will go extinct; meanwhile Russia has already started investment into its own capacities and ridding of all dependence will be completed in at most; 4-5 years time. Why should we go back to the Ukraine after that?
The country is fraught only with problems, and sure-fire ways of losing money. It's like a Afghanistan in that sense
I would much rather the West keep it, honestly, and let it be a burdon onto them.

I don't think it will become a totally failed state, it does have some cohesion. But if banditry and so on becomes an issue on Russian borders; than it's always possible to just take over that wall that the Ukrs have been building, would serve the purpose fine; along with helicopter patrols, border guards, etc...

The only thing I care about is stopping the war. Kharkov, Odessa, etc... can stay in the Ukraine - no-one's going to bail them out nor should they; consenquences of their own inaction.

I mostly agree with this but there is one thing you did not mention, possible NATO military bases in Ukraine. Can Russia afford NATO presence in Kharkov or even Donetsk (if Novorossiya falls)?

Karl Haushofer wrote:Let me demonstrate a bit further.

Let's assume that the Ukrainian economy collapses. Millions of people lose their jobs. There are even mini-famines in the poorest parts of the country. Ukrainian poor live as bad as Indian poor.

People would be angry. They would protest against the horrible economic situation and bad living standards. There would be mass protests and demands for resignations of the government. Some of these protests could even turn violent (but personally I don't believe that the regime would fall because they - unlike Yanukovich - would use brutal violence against any such attempts).

But what would Russia gain from this? Russia needs a change of a political course and a change of ideology in Ukraine. Would these upheavals and sufferings of regular Ukrainians do it? No. Would mass protests do it? No. They would not do it, because people would not be protesting for the change of policy or ideology, but for better living standards.

flamming_python wrote:There were no Western NGOs in the 80s USSR, yet that didn't prevent the state and its ideology along with it from collapsing in disgrace from the discontent of its own people, after at least 5 years of rising internal conflicts and a collapsing economy.

Последние Новости Новороссий wrote:Marinka Adjustment 2015

whir wrote:

flamming_python wrote:There were no Western NGOs in the 80s USSR, yet that didn't prevent the state and its ideology along with it from collapsing in disgrace from the discontent of its own people, after at least 5 years of rising internal conflicts and a collapsing economy.

But there was something called radio that used to spread and foster all kinds of beautiful ideas like "you could have a much bigger salary with unemployment" or the mythical Marshal Plan 2.0.