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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Neutrality
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Neutrality Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:00 pm

    Cowboy's daughter wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:Another very shocking video that Anatoly Shariy released:




    "Ukrop" party bribing pensioners in exchange for food. Very depressing video. Some "volunteer" comes up to the camera guy and starts harassing him, accusing him of "provocation" and what not, then apologizes and moves on. This video has everything. Brainwashed "browncoats" who are harassing people like the camera guy in public and the terrible state of the Ukrainian society. The people who are lined up, while it's raining, are even disgusted with themselves because they find it despicable and disrespectful when people with power manipulate the most unprotected citizens (pensioners) like that. There's also a guy who seems to be in his 50ies saying "look what became of us, look what these bastards did to us". 

    I just hope that this is a sign of things to come, not because I want Poroshenko and his team to burn (and I do). But for the good of those who didn't want any part in this muppet show.

    Does it say what city?

    Thinking about this, this morning. Wondering West versus East Ukraine, East is more rural? & more persons have gardens?
    West-city? versus East-more rural? Although there are cities in the East...
    Thinking of all the cellars and houses Ukrainian / Kiev armed forces, looted.
    ...My Mom who lived through the Great Depression, always said, "If you have a cow, chickens, and pigs, (& a garden), you can survive.", but she didn't live through war where she lived.
    To me, it's really scary to be dependent on Government like this, because who controls food, controls you.

    Somewhere here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernihiv_Oblast
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  whir Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:00 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:Has anyone seen about strelkov being sued by the families of people who died on mh17 for 900 million?

    So none of the investigations have been finished yet and they already know who to sue? And what about the ukrainian government/the airline for allowing flights over an area where planes were shot down on a daily basis at this time?

    I don't blame the families, they just want justice, my problem is with the people who have guided them and the system which has allowed this.
    This has happened in Chicago where someone sued Iran over Hamas bombing and won. Probably those relatives have been advised to follow the example hoping to receive some kind of compensation in the future but this is hardly a case for universal jurisdiction.

    If someone has not read it:

    The Telegraph wrote:MH17: Russian separatist leader sued for $900 million by crash victims
    By David Millward, US Correspondent2:00AM BST 16 Jul 2015

    Exclusive: Igor Girkin formally accused of orchestrating the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines flight in east Ukraine

    Igor Girkin, the leader of Russian separatist forces in eastern Ukraine, was on Wednesday formally accused of orchestrating the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines flight, MH17, in July last year.

    A writ filed in Chicago also alleges that Mr Girkin was acting with the blessing of the Kremlin when his forces fired at the Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

    The case has been brought on behalf of the families of 18 of the passengers on board the aircraft, including six Britons.
    They are claiming a total of $900 million (£575 million).

    In all 298 people died when a missile was fired at the aircraft as it flew over eastern Ukraine. Continue reading.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:15 pm

    Shutting the door after the horse has bolted?

    KIEV (Sputnik) – Not a single political party in Ukraine will have military units as the monopoly for the use of force belongs strictly to the state, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said Thursday. “Not a single party will have military units,” Poroshenko said during a parliamentary session. “This right belongs to the state. No one is allowed to rent out patriotic chevrons to bandits,” Poroshenko added.

    The president spoke about a recent shootout between police, locals and members of the Right Sector paramilitary group in the western Ukrainian town of Mukachevo. The paramilitray group is a de facto military wing of a Ukrainian political party which holds one seat in the country's parliament. Poroshenko stressed that the right to have armed forces was reserved for the state. "No one is allowed to rent out patriotic chevrons to bandits," he said.

    The Right Sector’s press service defended its members, saying they were trying to dismantle smuggling routes, allegedly controlled by local officials, when they claim police opened fire on them without warning.

    The Right Sector paramilitary group played a major role in the violent clashes with police that led to the February 2014 government overthrow.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150716/1024696974.html#ixzz3g3HXy3CK
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:17 pm

    whir wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote:Has anyone seen about strelkov being sued by the families of people who died on mh17 for 900 million?

    So none of the investigations have been finished yet and they already know who to sue? And what about the ukrainian government/the airline for allowing flights over an area where planes were shot down on a daily basis at this time?

    I don't blame the families, they just want justice, my problem is with the people who have guided them and the system which has allowed this.
    This has happened in Chicago where someone sued Iran over Hamas bombing and won. Probably those relatives have been advised to follow the example hoping to receive some kind of compensation in the future but this is hardly a case for universal jurisdiction.

    If someone has not read it:

    The Telegraph wrote:MH17: Russian separatist leader sued for $900 million by crash victims
    By David Millward, US Correspondent2:00AM BST 16 Jul 2015

    Exclusive: Igor Girkin formally accused of orchestrating the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines flight in east Ukraine

    Igor Girkin, the leader of Russian separatist forces in eastern Ukraine, was on Wednesday formally accused of orchestrating the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines flight, MH17, in July last year.

    A writ filed in Chicago also alleges that Mr Girkin was acting with the blessing of the Kremlin when his forces fired at the Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

    The case has been brought on behalf of the families of 18 of the passengers on board the aircraft, including six Britons.
    They are claiming a total of $900 million (£575 million).

    In all 298 people died when a missile was fired at the aircraft as it flew over eastern Ukraine. Continue reading.
    They will probably win the case (not sure who will pay the lawyers, probably US Gov as pots of adverse publicity for Russia) but good luck recovering any money. Crazy US legal system.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Rodinazombie Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:20 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    whir wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote:Has anyone seen about strelkov being sued by the families of people who died on mh17 for 900 million?

    So none of the investigations have been finished yet and they already know who to sue? And what about the ukrainian government/the airline for allowing flights over an area where planes were shot down on a daily basis at this time?

    I don't blame the families, they just want justice, my problem is with the people who have guided them and the system which has allowed this.
    This has happened in Chicago where someone sued Iran over Hamas bombing and won. Probably those relatives have been advised to follow the example hoping to receive some kind of compensation in the future but this is hardly a case for universal jurisdiction.

    If someone has not read it:

    The Telegraph wrote:MH17: Russian separatist leader sued for $900 million by crash victims
    By David Millward, US Correspondent2:00AM BST 16 Jul 2015

    Exclusive: Igor Girkin formally accused of orchestrating the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines flight in east Ukraine

    Igor Girkin, the leader of Russian separatist forces in eastern Ukraine, was on Wednesday formally accused of orchestrating the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines flight, MH17, in July last year.

    A writ filed in Chicago also alleges that Mr Girkin was acting with the blessing of the Kremlin when his forces fired at the Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

    The case has been brought on behalf of the families of 18 of the passengers on board the aircraft, including six Britons.
    They are claiming a total of $900 million (£575 million).

    In all 298 people died when a missile was fired at the aircraft as it flew over eastern Ukraine. Continue reading.
    They will probably win the case (not sure who will pay the lawyers, probably US Gov as pots of adverse publicity for Russia) but good luck recovering any money. Crazy US legal system.

    Oh, theres no doubt they will win. We all know that by now.

    Funny how they werent quite so quick after the iranian flight was shot down was they?



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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Flagship Victory Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:38 pm

    1 Maidan soldier KIA 10 Maidan soldiers WIA yesterday.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Cowboy's daughter Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:25 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    Cowboy's daughter wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:Another very shocking video that Anatoly Shariy released:




    "Ukrop" party bribing pensioners in exchange for food. Very depressing video. Some "volunteer" comes up to the camera guy and starts harassing him, accusing him of "provocation" and what not, then apologizes and moves on. This video has everything. Brainwashed "browncoats" who are harassing people like the camera guy in public and the terrible state of the Ukrainian society. The people who are lined up, while it's raining, are even disgusted with themselves because they find it despicable and disrespectful when people with power manipulate the most unprotected citizens (pensioners) like that. There's also a guy who seems to be in his 50ies saying "look what became of us, look what these bastards did to us". 

    I just hope that this is a sign of things to come, not because I want Poroshenko and his team to burn (and I do). But for the good of those who didn't want any part in this muppet show.

    Does it say what city?

    Thinking about this, this morning. Wondering West versus East Ukraine, East is more rural? & more persons have gardens?
    West-city? versus East-more rural? Although there are cities in the East...
    Thinking of all the cellars and houses Ukrainian / Kiev armed forces, looted.
    ...My Mom who lived through the Great Depression, always said, "If you have a cow, chickens, and pigs, (& a garden), you can survive.", but she didn't live through war where she lived.
    To me, it's really scary to be dependent on Government like this, because who controls food, controls you.

    Somewhere here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernihiv_Oblast

    History of the area in WW2: I read it wiith google translate

    Корюківка: забута трагедія. Як нацисти знищили 7-тисячне містечко
    02.03.2011 _ Юрій Поташній
    Версія для друку

    http://www.istpravda.com.ua/articles/2011/03/2/28636/

    Koryukivka: forgotten tragedy. As the Nazis destroyed the 7000th town
    02.03.2011 _ Yuri Potashnya
    Print



    see link
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Cowboy's daughter Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:33 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Shutting the door after the horse has bolted?

    KIEV (Sputnik) – Not a single political party in Ukraine will have military units as the monopoly for the use of force belongs strictly to the state, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said Thursday. “Not a single party will have military units,” Poroshenko said during a parliamentary session. “This right belongs to the state. No one is allowed to rent out patriotic chevrons to bandits,” Poroshenko added.

    The president spoke about a recent shootout between police, locals and members of the Right Sector paramilitary group in the western Ukrainian town of Mukachevo. The paramilitray group is a de facto military wing of a Ukrainian political party which holds one seat in the country's parliament. Poroshenko stressed that the right to have armed forces was reserved for the state. "No one is allowed to rent out patriotic chevrons to bandits," he said.

    The Right Sector’s press service defended its members, saying they were trying to dismantle smuggling routes, allegedly controlled by local officials, when they claim police opened fire on them without warning.

    The Right Sector paramilitary group played a major role in the violent clashes with police that led to the February 2014 government overthrow.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150716/1024696974.html#ixzz3g3HXy3CK

    How things have changed.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Cowboy's daughter Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:46 pm

    Kiev to crack down on militant nationalist group

    http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Kiev-to-crack-down-on-militant-nationalist-group-409142?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Its members are currently involved in that conflict as well, fighting alongside, but separately from, government troops in the Donbas region.

    I know , or think, they've fought together at Peski. Can someone else name other places?? Thank you in advance.
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    Post  whir Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:02 pm

    Cowboy's daughter wrote:How things have changed.
    Empty words, every politician playing power games in Ukraine has his own goons, even ill-fated Timoshenko has a private army.

    Cowboy's daughter wrote:Kiev to crack down on militant nationalist group
    It's the same script as Tornado, those responsible of spoiling the smuggling activities of respected businessmen are going to face jail while the rest are going to roam free.

    The new ingredient in the mix is the NG that has taken many empty niches of the very profitable smuggling business for itself.
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:05 pm

    Wow, Moscow officially says it could have been a Buk, but not us.

    MOSCOW, July 16. /TASS/. Russia’s Almaz-Antey Concern’s report on the MH17 crash that states that the passenger plane was shot down from the Buk-M1 air defense missile system is one of possible explanations, Rosaviation federal agency deputy head Oleg Storchevoy said on Thursday.

    "The research conducted by the Almaz-Antey Concern is not a confirmation that the Boeing was shot down by a missile from the Buk-M1 air defense system, but rather one of possible explanations of what happened, other possible causes are not ruled out," Storchevoy said.

    The deputy head added that numerous eyewitnesses stated that they saw a military aircraft at the crash site on the day of the tragedy. He also reminded that Russian military experts said in their report that the plane was shot down by an air-to-air missile. "Calculations in the document are very accurate, it is obvious that people [authors of the report] have extensive experience in investigating disasters," Storchevoy noted.

    Mikhail Malyshevsky, an adviser to the chief designer of Almaz-Antey Concern said last month that the Malaysian aircraft above Ukraine was downed by an air defense missile, most likely 9M38M1 of the Buk-M1 air defense system. In turn, Almaz-Antey Director General Yan Novikov recalled that the missile was discontinued in Russia in 1999.

    Almaz-Antey experts said the missile was launched from an area south of the locality of Zaroshchenskoye in Ukraine, while analysis did not confirm the version that the missile was launched from Snezhnoye. "For experimental integrity, we can’t say what side owned the missile," he said.

    On July 17, 2014, a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 passenger airliner on flight MH17 from the Dutch city of Amsterdam to the Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur crashed in the Donetsk Region in eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board. Most passengers - 193 people - were Dutch nationals.


    However, if that is the case it wasn't us, honest Guv.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – The fatal Malaysian Airlines plane could not have been downed by a Buk-M1 missile from territories controlled by east Ukrainian militia because Russian radars would have pinged it, the deputy head of the Russian Federal Air Transport Agency said Thursday.

    “I would like to emphasize separately that, according to specialists, if a missile was launched from Zaroschinsky [under Kiev control], [Russian] radar stations would not have fixed the launch or the missile’s flight toward the aircraft. At the same time, if the missile was launched from the region of Snizhniy [under the control of east Donbass militias], as many in the West claim, then according to all of the experts and specialists, this would be reflected in the [southern Russian] Rostov radar locators,” Oleg Storchevoi said. Russia has never pushed forward its version of the MH17 plane crash in eastern Ukraine, but has only suggested taking all of its information into consideration, he added.

    Kiev blamed the independence supporters in eastern Ukraine for shooting down the plane. However, local militia insisted that they did not possess weapons capable of bringing down an aircraft flying at 32,000 feet. Russia has repeatedly stressed the importance of a transparent international investigation into the tragedy.

    Russia is the only country so far to reveal information it has on the MH17 plane crash, he said. “I will remind you that Russia was the first and the only country that revealed its information. No other country has revealed its information on the disaster. There is no documentation from Ukraine in regard to conversations in the military sector on the day of the crash, no flight plans for military aviation, no information on the existence and expenditure of controlled rockets, no satellite images from the US.”

    Russia is prepared to conduct metals analysis alongside specialists from any country of the rocket that brought down the MH17 plane in eastern Ukraine, he said. “We have high quality equipment, including equipment to conduct metals analyses that can define the type of metal that the destructive elements were made of, as well as the exact make of the rocket. We are ready to conduct any type of investigation alongside specialists from any country. We have nothing to hide.”

    The Russian Federal Air Transport Agency believes the calculations by specialists who published their conclusions into the downing of the MH17 plane with air-to-air missiles to be competent, the agency’s deputy head said. “I saw a report was published by a group of aviation specialists who calculated the angles of damage, the size and the possible weight of the damaging elements and on this basis, they proved that the plane could have been hit only with a foreign air-to-air missile because Russian missiles don’t have these characteristics. I can say that the calculations that are given in the document are very competent. It’s obvious that these people have in-depth expert knowledge and experience in investigating disasters.”

    Kiev did not close the airspace over eastern Ukraine because of greed and because it did not want to lose money, which led to the downing of the MH17 plane last year, Oleg Storchevoi noted.

    “The Russian Federal Air Transport Agency has already sent its disagreements and comments to the Netherlands. They obviously cannot publish these and they can’t be published until the final report comes out,” Oleg Storchevoi said. “We will, of course, be ready to give detailed explanations after the publication of the document, moreover, since we have something to say in this regard. But during the time before the official publication of the report comes out, new additional proof that I hope would help in the objective investigation into the reasons for the Boeing catastrophe may appear,” Storchevoi said.

    The Dutch Safety Board is due to release a final report on the tragedy in October 2015. Russia does not have full access to the materials in the investigation of the MH17 plane crash, Oleg Storchevoi said. “Only careful work in studying the smallest of details can define what the reason was for the aircraft’s crash.”

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150716/1024699993.html#ixzz3g3lNwOAN


    Last edited by JohninMK on Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Second link added)
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:09 pm

    All clear a bit clearer now. its a tiny amendment to the constitution enabling the insertion a regulation (to be published later perhaps not seen it yet) covering the Seps' area. Still booted it into the long grass.

    KIEV, July 16. /TASS/. Ukraine’s parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, on Thursday sent to the Constitutional Court draft amendments to the country’s Constitution concerning decentralization. A total of 288 lawmakers, 62 more than the minimum required voted in favor of the decision. The Constitution is added by a provision that "the peculiarities of local self-government in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions are defined by a separate law."

    Ukrainian MP Leonid Emets said the inclusion of such a provision to the Constitution automatically means that "the parliament will have to adopt this law in any case.""This means that until the regulation disappears from the Constitution, the law on the special status of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions will be a responsibility of the Rada," he said.

    This regulation has been submitted to show the implementation of the February 12 Minsk peace agreements on Ukraine, the MP said.

    An explanatory note to the document says that the proposed amendments are in line with the Constitution’s article on the unitary system of government. "Decentralization does not mean weakening the central authority in the issues of defence, foreign policy, national security, the rule of law and the observance of the rights and freedoms of citizens," it says.

    Poroshenko stressed that there is not a single hint of federalisation in the draft amendments. "Ukraine was, is and will remain a unitary state," the president said.

    Earlier on Thursday, an MP from the Poroshenko Bloc faction, Sergey Leschenko, said if the high court approves the draft to the Constitution, 226 and 300 lawmakers should vote for it at two sessions in a row. He said the first reading is likely to take place in August and the second one in autumn.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:11 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    You see that video of hundreds if not thousands on the streets desperate for food...
    and it was just one city.. ukraine have a hundred or more cities.. If Russia invades..
    and some people in this forums wants.. not only they will need to bring tanks..
    but convoys of thousands of trucks too with food.. every week too feed 40 millions
    Ukrainians for life... No thanks..

    Thats what Poroshenko and the Americans will have loved to see.. Russia invading
    and later force Russia maintain millions of grandmas pensions and food supply to them..
    Liberating Kiev of that burden.. and americans and Rusophobic allies sending more and more
    of volunteer mercenaries from all US and Europeans jails.. Grinding Russia into a 10-15 years
    long urban mercenary war.

    Agreed.

    This is why this mess will last for years, maybe decades. NATO friendly Ukraine is problem for Russia and it needs to be dealt with, most likely by restoring influence in the long term.

    But Ukrainian population today simply has unresonably and ridiculously high opinion of themselves. They think that they are better than everyone else around, that they are genetically superior and exalted and that they deserve living standards, income and lifestyle of countries like Sweden or Denmark just because they are Ukrainians.

    And they want someone else to pay for it, naturally.

    In order to solve this problem Russia will probably keep current situation going for quite some time before making next step. Once average Ukrainian (outside Donbass) learns to be satisfied with only bare basics like 200 calories a day and tap water and when they stop expecting fancy stuff like infrastructure, education, healthcare,  heating, regular electricity and other luxuries then we will see Russia making it's next move.

    Ukraine has potential to become loyal, efficient and very cheap client state for Russia once price tag of Ukrainian upkeep drops roughly to level of South Ossetia and when it is converted into very loose confederacy. Rapid depopulation that is occurring right now will expedite process.

    Lasting crisis and societal collapse will also help flush out all Nazis and similar scum so they could be ''dealt with''  Twisted Evil .
    It should have been done seven decades ago but there's no point crying about it now. Better late than never.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:16 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:It should have been done seven decades ago but there's no point crying about it now. Better late than never.

    It was not an option back then Russia was more dependent Ukraine. Only now it can be implemented.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:18 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:

    You see that video of hundreds if not thousands on the streets desperate for food...
    and it was just one city.. ukraine have a hundred or more cities.. If Russia invades..
    and some people in this forums wants.. not only they will need to bring tanks..
    but convoys of thousands of trucks too with food.. every week too feed 40 millions
    Ukrainians for life... No thanks..

    Thats what Poroshenko and the Americans will have loved to see.. Russia invading
    and later force Russia maintain millions of grandmas pensions and food supply to them..
    Liberating Kiev of that burden.. and americans and Rusophobic allies sending more and more
    of volunteer mercenaries from all US and Europeans jails.. Grinding Russia into a 10-15 years
    long urban mercenary war.

    Agreed.

    This is why this mess will last for years, maybe decades. NATO friendly Ukraine is problem for Russia and it needs to be dealt with, most likely by restoring influence in the long term.

    But Ukrainian population today simply has unresonably and ridiculously high opinion of themselves. They think that they are better than everyone else around, that they are genetically superior and exalted and that they deserve living standards, income and lifestyle of countries like Sweden or Denmark just because they are Ukrainians.

    And they want someone else to pay for it, naturally.

    In order to solve this problem Russia will probably keep current situation going for quite some time before making next step. Once average Ukrainian (outside Donbass) learns to be satisfied with only bare basics like 200 calories a day and tap water and when they stop expecting fancy stuff like infrastructure, education, healthcare,  heating, regular electricity and other luxuries then we will see Russia making it's next move.

    Ukraine has potential to become loyal, efficient and very cheap client state for Russia once price tag of Ukrainian upkeep drops roughly to level of South Ossetia and when it is converted into very loose confederacy. Rapid depopulation that is occurring right now will expedite process.

    Lasting crisis and societal collapse will also help flush out all Nazis and similar scum so they could be ''dealt with''  Twisted Evil .
    It should have been done seven decades ago but there's no point crying about it now. Better late than never.
    I certainly wouldn't want to be a US financier or company lured into buying some asset, only for it to be nationalised in a few years for peanuts. Buy it now for ten cents on the $ and lose it for cents on the ten cents. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 26 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:35 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:It should have been done seven decades ago but there's no point crying about it now. Better late than never.

    It was not an option back then Russia was more dependent Ukraine. Only now it can be implemented.

    It was option back then but someone decided to put petty politics and personal interest above law and justice and to pussyfoot around a very dangerous problem.

    Same thing happened in former Yugoslavia after WWII with same results.
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    Post  whir Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:42 pm

    Sputnik wrote:Donbass Militia Did Not Down MH17 - Russian Radars Data
    EUROPE 14:20 16.07.2015(updated 15:25 16.07.2015)

    Donbass militia did not down the Malaysian plane with a Buk-M1 missile, as radars would have registered the launch. Kiev left airspace over Donbass open because of greed and not wanting to lose money, which led to the death of 298 people, the deputy director of the Federal Air Transport Agency said.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – The fatal Malaysian Airlines plane could not have been downed by a Buk-M1 missile from territories controlled by east Ukrainian militia because Russian radars would have pinged it, the deputy head of the Russian Federal Air Transport Agency said Thursday.

    “I would like to emphasize separately that, according to specialists, if a missile was launched from Zaroschinsky [under Kiev control], [Russian] radar stations would not have fixed the launch or the missile’s flight toward the aircraft. At the same time, if the missile was launched from the region of Snizhniy [under the control of east Donbass militias], as many in the West claim, then according to all of the experts and specialists, this would be reflected in the [southern Russian] Rostov radar locators,” Oleg Storchevoi said.

    Russia has never pushed forward its version of the MH17 plane crash in eastern Ukraine, but has only suggested taking all of its information into consideration, he added. Continue reading.

    Sputnik wrote:MH17 Crash: Is West Really Willing to Find Out the Truth?
    POLITICS 16:18 16.07.2015(updated 16:31 16.07.2015) Ekaterina Blinova

    A year has passed since the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over Ukraine, but are we a step closer to finding out the truth about the hideous tragedy?

    On July 17, 2014 Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 came down near Donetsk in eastern Ukraine en route to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam killing all 298 people on board.

    What happened next still raises questions: although an official investigation had not even been launched, Washington and a chorus of Western media sources had immediately pointed the finger at Russia and eastern Ukrainian rebels. Continue reading.
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    Post  Flagship Victory Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:27 pm

    Don't even bother with MH17. The tribunal is nothing but a bunch of western gang, as is OSCE Sleep
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    Post  Flagship Victory Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:35 pm

    Maidan leader to visit Kazakhstan in fall season. Perhaps Kazakhstan is worried about its large Russian minority in the northern part of the country?

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poroshenko-to-pay-visit-to-astana-in-fall-393621.html
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    Post  whir Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:46 pm

    Some humour from Rada:

    максим колос wrote:Lyashko Poroshenko got to stand up and sing the national anthem of Ukraine
    Oleg Lyashko after a speech in the parliament of the law on amendments to the Constitution unexpectedly ended his speech at the podium and began to sing the national anthem of Ukraine.
    The deputies in the hall, and the President Poroshenko rose after MP.
    At the same time, while singing at Lyashko mute the microphone on the podium. He began to sing with even more enthusiasm, I turn to the president, is actively conducting arms motif anthem.
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    Post  Khepesh Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:16 pm

    Very heavy ukrops bombardment from Avdeevka taking place, so loud that it can be heard in Gorlovka, who still wait for the usual evening grim serenade of death....

    Residents of Makeevka say it's very loud to them and not only from direction of airport and Kievsky, which is already reported, but from Yasinovataya. No reports from Yasinovataya yet.

    From Putilovka they say that the bombardment of them has been continuous for twenty minutes. Usually these bombardments are of not like artillery bombardment before an attack, but a few shells land, or sometimes a volley from an entire battery, then silence for a little while before some more. So continuous is unusual.
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    Post  auslander Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:28 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Very heavy ukrops bombardment from Avdeevka taking place, so loud that it can be heard in Gorlovka, who still wait for the usual evening grim serenade of death....

    Residents of Makeevka say it's very loud to them and not only from direction of airport and Kievsky, which is already reported, but from Yasinovataya. No reports from Yasinovataya yet.

    From Putilovka they say that the bombardment of them has been continuous for twenty minutes. Usually these bombardments are of not like artillery bombardment before an attack, but a few shells land, or sometimes a volley from an entire battery, then silence for a little while before some more. So continuous is unusual.

    The storm clouds gather, as do the clans. We are ready but they, not we, must attack.
    ExBeobachter1987
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:35 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:It was option back then but someone decided to put petty politics and personal interest above law and justice and to pussyfoot around a very dangerous problem.

    Cutting off Ukraine was not an acceptable option in the 1990s and 2000s. The strategic dependency on Ukraine was too large.

    PapaDragon wrote:Same thing happened in former Yugoslavia after WWII with same results.

    What exactly did the Yugoslavs wrong?
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    Post  Akula971 Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:52 pm

    Might seem a bit off topic but I would like to give my personal views on the MH17, and everyone is encouraged to debate and demolish everything I have written, it only helps to get a cleared picture (by elimination, as them science people call it)

    See I have been reading a lot about the MH17 getting shot down and I am just gonna try and write a summary of what happened, just to get a better picture because everyone is blaming everybody out there.

    Lets start some days before the MH 17 went down, on 14th July 2014, the NAF forces were able to shoot down an UAF An 26. One month ago, in June they were able to shoot down an Il 76 and it was taken out by a heat seeking missile such as Grom (which NAF had at that time) or say a Strela, because it got hit precisely on the engine and hit the deck slowly.

    Now at that time, in July 2014 the NAF had all sorts of short range ADS, from ZSU-23-2s to GROM MANPADs and well Strela 10Ms as well. But even till then, they had no Radar guided ADS. They were able to take over 1 air defence forces base, and it had a Buk M1. This Buk M1 however, had been rendered useless. It was indeed confirmed by the UA authorities who said, in the Rada, that they had been rendered useless. Before or after 14 July there has been no recorded use of Radar guided ADS by NAF.

    Further, lets see how these Buk M1s work. There are a no. of vehicles and components that make up a Buk. They require a target acquisition radar, a command vehicle, a Telar and a reloading vehicle (bare basic). The Buk M1 that NAF 'allegedly' would have had would be a TELAR. The MH17 was flying OVER the max. engagement range of a lone TELAR. You are free to look up all of this, its all out there. If any target acquisition radar would have become operational, UAF would be all over it. Maybe send a SEAD Su 24 for it too.

    Videos from ex UAF Buk and Su 25 operators have more or less confirmed that it was indeed a Su 25 that shot down the MH17. Just a few hours after the shooting down of MH17, Russia was able to show its Radar ATC data showing the Su 25 engaging the MH17. I mean, they couldnt have possibly fabricated that in such a short time.

    Things that might have been overlooked -
    1) the UA forces never released the ATC data recording, plus the fate of the Spanish ATC guy who tweeted about suspicious activity.
    2) Eye witness reports of a Su 25 flying by
    3) UAF shelling the shit out of the crash site afterwards.
    4) MH17 was told to loose altitude

    Really, the 3 point is a CLEAR cover up attempt - if they knew that it was NAF that shot up the MH17, they would NEVER , i repeat NEVER destroy ANY evidence of the aircraft or wreckage, but they did blow the wreck to kingdom come.

    It leaves little space for other 'theories' if you ask me. The distinct marks of a GSh-30-2 dont look like anything a Buk warhead could do, a Buk warhead would have cut through the entire fuselage like hot discs not prominent bullet marks.  

    The part about the missile being a Python Gen 5 and not a R 60 is something i cannot comment on. My personal view on this, since July 17 has been - UAF Su 25 tails MH17, takes a lock on with a R60, shoots, then goes guns guns guns to be double sure and runs off home. The only reason it went to guns is because, as seen in the past, a R60 alone cannot take out a commercial airliner, apparently it wasnt the first time a big plane was shot at by a R60.
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    Post  max steel Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:44 pm

    Hold on Akiua ! Recent leaked report by hacker group snonymous said mh17 was shot down using Israeli made Python air 2 air missile .


    http://www.rt.com/news/310039-mh17-israeli-missile-version/

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