The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

@Ghister and Karl

I rest my case. If it wasnt given for free, it wasnt free. Thanks for proving my point. No matter how much you try to divert the conversation about christian this or thay, you were proven wrong.
Thanks.

sepheronx wrote:@Ghister and Karl

I rest my case. If it wasnt given for free, it wasnt free. Thanks for proving my point. No matter how much you try to divert the conversation about christian this or thay, you were proven wrong.
Thanks.

Russia sold coal to Ukraine with Russian domestic prices. I would guess that Ukraine was the only country given this privilege?

Karl Haushofer wrote:

Ghoster wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Karl, ill ask the same to you as I did to your other account - provide proof Russia gave resources for free. And not some google image like you did on the other thread.

How do you think Kiev will be able to pay for gas and coal if it has no money? While Russia hasn't provided any free coal yet, it supplied it at domestic prices last winter, without any advance prepayment.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/27/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-coal-idUKKBN0K508D20141227

Russia will supply coal and electricity to Kiev without advance payment as a goodwill gesture from President Vladimir Putin, his spokesman Dmitry Peskov told TASS news agency.
...
"Putin made a decision to start these supplies due to the critical situation with energy supplies and despite a lack of prepayment," Peskov said.
...
Supplies will come at Russian domestic prices, Kozak said, adding that he hoped the move would help ensure reliable energy supplies to Crimea.

On another note, DPR right now does supply coal at around 300,000-400,000 tons per month. It delivered the most coal during July, when Ukrainian army was shelling civilian areas the worst since the beginning of "ceasefire". Why is this coal being sold to Ukraine in the first place, I'm not even sure anymore.

How does Ukraine pay for it is the real question (if they are even paying for it).

Thank you for this. You answered the question better than I could.

Delivering Kiev with gas and coal without pre-payment is an equivalent for giving it for them for free.

It seems to be part of Russia's foreign policy right now, unfortunately. I've read somewhere that Ukraine may soon receive gas from Gazprom without any prepayment too. Ukraine is so broke right now, that they've even asked Gazprom to make advance payments for its gas transit.

It would be a perfect time to apply economic pressure on Kiev, but it won't happen.

Some interesting recent videos to break up the pointless geopolitical/economical "discussion"

I am not buying the recent UkrOp reports. Seems to me they are playing the "seps are on the offensive, we suffer daily while we abide the ceasefire" for domestic and foreign audience.

Karl Haushofer wrote:

sepheronx wrote:@Ghister and Karl

I rest my case. If it wasnt given for free, it wasnt free. Thanks for proving my point. No matter how much you try to divert the conversation about christian this or thay, you were proven wrong.
Thanks.

You are exfremely annoying. You said free, you were wrong. Go away please.

Russia sold coal to Ukraine with Russian domestic prices. I would guess that Ukraine was the only country given this privilege?

sepheronx, he is only trolling You. Stop wasting Your time answering him, he will wind You up.

My take is that it's better to sell them and earn a ruble or two than not to. Plus it makes Ukrainian "independancy" from Russia even more pathetic. Remember when Ukrainian gov. said they stopped buying Russian coal?

sepheronx wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:

sepheronx wrote:@Ghister and Karl

I rest my case. If it wasnt given for free, it wasnt free. Thanks for proving my point. No matter how much you try to divert the conversation about christian this or thay, you were proven wrong.
Thanks.

You are exfremely annoying. You said free, you were wrong. Go away please.

Russia sold coal to Ukraine with Russian domestic prices. I would guess that Ukraine was the only country given this privilege?

He still has a point about the lack of prepayment and the domestic prices.

The only thing I would give to the Kiev government without requiring prepayment and at domestic prices - is the sole of my left boot.

Ghoster wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:

Ghoster wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Karl, ill ask the same to you as I did to your other account - provide proof Russia gave resources for free. And not some google image like you did on the other thread.

How do you think Kiev will be able to pay for gas and coal if it has no money? While Russia hasn't provided any free coal yet, it supplied it at domestic prices last winter, without any advance prepayment.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/27/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-coal-idUKKBN0K508D20141227

Russia will supply coal and electricity to Kiev without advance payment as a goodwill gesture from President Vladimir Putin, his spokesman Dmitry Peskov told TASS news agency.
...
"Putin made a decision to start these supplies due to the critical situation with energy supplies and despite a lack of prepayment," Peskov said.
...
Supplies will come at Russian domestic prices, Kozak said, adding that he hoped the move would help ensure reliable energy supplies to Crimea.

On another note, DPR right now does supply coal at around 300,000-400,000 tons per month. It delivered the most coal during July, when Ukrainian army was shelling civilian areas the worst since the beginning of "ceasefire". Why is this coal being sold to Ukraine in the first place, I'm not even sure anymore.

How does Ukraine pay for it is the real question (if they are even paying for it).

Thank you for this. You answered the question better than I could.

Delivering Kiev with gas and coal without pre-payment is an equivalent for giving it for them for free.

It seems to be part of Russia's foreign policy right now, unfortunately. I've read somewhere that Ukraine may soon receive gas from Gazprom without any prepayment too. Ukraine is so broke right now, that they've even asked Gazprom to make advance payments for its gas transit.

It would be a perfect time to apply economic pressure on Kiev, but it won't happen.

How much leverage does Ukraine have over Russia for the gas transit to Europe? Could Ukraine blackmail Russia to these concessions by threatening to cut off the gas supply to Europe or is Russia really doing all this out of good heart and as a gesture of goodwill?

It is sometimes very hard to understand Russia. Put any Western country into a similar position and none of them would be showing these gestures of goodwill towards a country that openly hates you and would love to annihilate you.

Ghoster wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Karl, ill ask the same to you as I did to your other account - provide proof Russia gave resources for free. And not some google image like you did on the other thread.

How do you think Kiev will be able to pay for gas and coal if it has no money? While Russia hasn't provided any free coal yet, it supplied it at domestic prices last winter, without any advance prepayment.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/27/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-coal-idUKKBN0K508D20141227

Russia will supply coal and electricity to Kiev without advance payment as a goodwill gesture from President Vladimir Putin, his spokesman Dmitry Peskov told TASS news agency.
...
"Putin made a decision to start these supplies due to the critical situation with energy supplies and despite a lack of prepayment," Peskov said.
...
Supplies will come at Russian domestic prices, Kozak said, adding that he hoped the move would help ensure reliable energy supplies to Crimea.

On another note, DPR right now does supply coal at around 300,000-400,000 tons per month. It delivered the most coal during July, when Ukrainian army was shelling civilian areas the worst since the beginning of "ceasefire". Why is this coal being sold to Ukraine in the first place, I'm not even sure anymore.

How does Ukraine pay for it is the real question (if they are even paying for it).

Here is the answer, why Russia supply coal and gas last year to Ukraine for low price even without payment in advance, that Ukraine supply energy to Crimea, who doesn't have enough domestic sources. This winter the picture will be different. After modernization of existing power plants + building some new solar power plants and energy bridge with Russian mainland, Crimea will be energetically self sufficient and will not need anything from Ukraine. They have their own water sources, their own energy and food supplies, etc. As Crimea is no more a hostage of Kiev junta, Russia could simply say no or you have to pay in advance for such a price.

Kiev junta will be forced to start an offensive on Novorussia to get to the Novorussian coal or there will be no electricity and hot water supplies as they will not have coal and gas in winter. Kiev could not wait for October for offensive, they have to start now, or they will be freezing. October will be to late, winter practically start in that time.

medo wrote:

Ghoster wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Karl, ill ask the same to you as I did to your other account - provide proof Russia gave resources for free. And not some google image like you did on the other thread.

How do you think Kiev will be able to pay for gas and coal if it has no money? While Russia hasn't provided any free coal yet, it supplied it at domestic prices last winter, without any advance prepayment.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/27/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-coal-idUKKBN0K508D20141227

Russia will supply coal and electricity to Kiev without advance payment as a goodwill gesture from President Vladimir Putin, his spokesman Dmitry Peskov told TASS news agency.
...
"Putin made a decision to start these supplies due to the critical situation with energy supplies and despite a lack of prepayment," Peskov said.
...
Supplies will come at Russian domestic prices, Kozak said, adding that he hoped the move would help ensure reliable energy supplies to Crimea.

On another note, DPR right now does supply coal at around 300,000-400,000 tons per month. It delivered the most coal during July, when Ukrainian army was shelling civilian areas the worst since the beginning of "ceasefire". Why is this coal being sold to Ukraine in the first place, I'm not even sure anymore.

How does Ukraine pay for it is the real question (if they are even paying for it).

Here is the answer, why Russia supply coal and gas last year to Ukraine for low price even without payment in advance, that Ukraine supply energy to Crimea, who doesn't have enough domestic sources. This winter the picture will be different. After modernization of existing power plants + building some new solar power plants and energy bridge with Russian mainland, Crimea will be energetically self sufficient and will not need anything from Ukraine. They have their own water sources, their own energy and food supplies, etc. As Crimea is no more a hostage of Kiev junta, Russia could simply say no or you have to pay in advance for such a price.

Kiev junta will be forced to start an offensive on Novorussia to get to the Novorussian coal or there will be no electricity and hot water supplies as they will not have coal and gas in winter. Kiev could not wait for October for offensive, they have to start now, or they will be freezing. October will be to late, winter practically start in that time.

Good to hear about increasing self-sustainability of Crimea. But how about the gas transit via Ukraine?

Karl Haushofer wrote:

medo wrote:

Ghoster wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Karl, ill ask the same to you as I did to your other account - provide proof Russia gave resources for free. And not some google image like you did on the other thread.

How do you think Kiev will be able to pay for gas and coal if it has no money? While Russia hasn't provided any free coal yet, it supplied it at domestic prices last winter, without any advance prepayment.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/27/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-coal-idUKKBN0K508D20141227

Russia will supply coal and electricity to Kiev without advance payment as a goodwill gesture from President Vladimir Putin, his spokesman Dmitry Peskov told TASS news agency.
...
"Putin made a decision to start these supplies due to the critical situation with energy supplies and despite a lack of prepayment," Peskov said.
...
Supplies will come at Russian domestic prices, Kozak said, adding that he hoped the move would help ensure reliable energy supplies to Crimea.

On another note, DPR right now does supply coal at around 300,000-400,000 tons per month. It delivered the most coal during July, when Ukrainian army was shelling civilian areas the worst since the beginning of "ceasefire". Why is this coal being sold to Ukraine in the first place, I'm not even sure anymore.

How does Ukraine pay for it is the real question (if they are even paying for it).

Here is the answer, why Russia supply coal and gas last year to Ukraine for low price even without payment in advance, that Ukraine supply energy to Crimea, who doesn't have enough domestic sources. This winter the picture will be different. After modernization of existing power plants + building some new solar power plants and energy bridge with Russian mainland, Crimea will be energetically self sufficient and will not need anything from Ukraine. They have their own water sources, their own energy and food supplies, etc. As Crimea is no more a hostage of Kiev junta, Russia could simply say no or you have to pay in advance for such a price.

Kiev junta will be forced to start an offensive on Novorussia to get to the Novorussian coal or there will be no electricity and hot water supplies as they will not have coal and gas in winter. Kiev could not wait for October for offensive, they have to start now, or they will be freezing. October will be to late, winter practically start in that time.

Good to hear about increasing self-sustainability of Crimea. But how about the gas transit via Ukraine?

When gas leave Russian territory, it is EU gas and EU problem. Russia send as much gas as EU pay. This is why EU was paying for Ukrainian gas.

par far wrote:


This is very true, people don't get this, they just keep waiting for the Ukrainian economy to collapse, which will never happen.  

It already has happened, months ago when Kiev stopped paying for common things they use to, like pensions, miners, gas. What they are waiting for is the Ukrainians to realize, rise up and kick out the junta.

JohninMK wrote:

medo wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:

medo wrote:

Ghoster wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Karl, ill ask the same to you as I did to your other account - provide proof Russia gave resources for free. And not some google image like you did on the other thread.

How do you think Kiev will be able to pay for gas and coal if it has no money? While Russia hasn't provided any free coal yet, it supplied it at domestic prices last winter, without any advance prepayment.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/27/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-coal-idUKKBN0K508D20141227

Russia will supply coal and electricity to Kiev without advance payment as a goodwill gesture from President Vladimir Putin, his spokesman Dmitry Peskov told TASS news agency.
...
"Putin made a decision to start these supplies due to the critical situation with energy supplies and despite a lack of prepayment," Peskov said.
...
Supplies will come at Russian domestic prices, Kozak said, adding that he hoped the move would help ensure reliable energy supplies to Crimea.

On another note, DPR right now does supply coal at around 300,000-400,000 tons per month. It delivered the most coal during July, when Ukrainian army was shelling civilian areas the worst since the beginning of "ceasefire". Why is this coal being sold to Ukraine in the first place, I'm not even sure anymore.

How does Ukraine pay for it is the real question (if they are even paying for it).

Here is the answer, why Russia supply coal and gas last year to Ukraine for low price even without payment in advance, that Ukraine supply energy to Crimea, who doesn't have enough domestic sources. This winter the picture will be different. After modernization of existing power plants + building some new solar power plants and energy bridge with Russian mainland, Crimea will be energetically self sufficient and will not need anything from Ukraine. They have their own water sources, their own energy and food supplies, etc. As Crimea is no more a hostage of Kiev junta, Russia could simply say no or you have to pay in advance for such a price.

Kiev junta will be forced to start an offensive on Novorussia to get to the Novorussian coal or there will be no electricity and hot water supplies as they will not have coal and gas in winter. Kiev could not wait for October for offensive, they have to start now, or they will be freezing. October will be to late, winter practically start in that time.

Good to hear about increasing self-sustainability of Crimea. But how about the gas transit via Ukraine?

When gas leave Russian territory, it is EU gas and EU problem. Russia send as much gas as EU pay. This is why EU was paying for Ukrainian gas.

Don't think that is correct. When it crosses into Ukraine some is Ukrainian (that which it has paid for) and the rest is for EU countries, as per their contracts with Gazprom, not the EU as an organisation. The EU does not pay directly for any gas but is able to negotiate.

However you look, last winter EU pay for Ukrainian gas. Be it they pay instead of Ukraine, or they pay the gas Ukraine was stolen from the pipeline. What actually matter is, that those nuts in Kiev, who think they got it from Russia for free, will sooner or later have to pay for the gas to EU together with interests, so it will be quite expensive for Kiev.

JohninMK wrote:
Sorry but again that is not correct. The EU paid no money to Russia for gas, full stop. Countries within the EU paid Russia for the gas they were contracted for. A country outside the EU, Ukraine, may have paid Russia (and reverse flow countries) for some of the gas it used from money, grants and loans, that it received from organisations like the EU/IMF etc but we don't know. I am not sure that anyone in Kiev thinks that it gets Russian gas for free any more, certainly when Russia turned the tap when an advance payment was late and AFAIK no gas was 'stolen' from the pipelines last winter, the Russians only input what was contracted for. Yes, one day the loans will have to be repaid and yes, it will be painful.

Putin said the pipes can't reverse flow, the pumping stations were not designed that way. So Ukraine would have to be stealing gas which was destined for the EU, unless they have modified the pumping stations. There was a separate pipeline from the EU via Slovakia which they called "reverse flow"

http://www.dw.com/en/slovakia-opens-reverse-flow-pipeline-to-carry-gas-to-ukraine/a-17895333

how it will be if Russian army really invaded Ukraine..

If you believe the social network users blogging on the latest ATO news, another part of the Russian army near Lugansk has been destroyed, as confirmed by reports intercepted from the Russian army.©

This calls for some military cultural background. The Russian army uses digital radio with the local encryption. Intercept it, maybe; decipher it, no. The code changes on an arbitrary and unpredictable schedule: every 50 minutes, hour, hour and twenty-two... . Ukrainian military, and "separatists," use the old analog format, which you can hear. But with the Russian army right now all you hear is a crackle and a characteristic murmur.

In contrast, if it's the Russian Army that's dealing with the APU, you will know it.

The first symptom: stoppage of all means of communication, with complete draining of the batteries in cars, trucks, tanks, and also in cell phones, and transmitters. Broken circuits in any and all electrical devices. This is EMR, Extraordinary Magnetic Resistance. All the engines will quit running, with no way of restarting them. That's what the "Hingan" system does, with a radius of 20 kilometers.

The second symptom: complete failure of all systems using LCDs, and the failure of all aiming devices and air defense systems - radars are dead. This is the "Altair" system.

Third symptom: guided weapons - from MANPADS to ATGM -- won't work. Worse, they will explode if you try ... This is the "Mercury" system, mobile because based on multi-purpose tracked vehicles featuring very tall antennas. Now every Russian battalion is equipped with it. Effective range: 15 kilometers.

Fourth symptom. Your drones either drop or boomerang: They either fall with the failure of guidance and motor, or they get commandeered by the Russian forces. The system "Krasuha-4" disables the onboard equipment of aircraft and any other flying equipment. The system of "Carpool" intercepts the control of pilotless flyers. The Russians gave it to the Iranians, and the Iranians used it to drop the top secret US Lockheed Martin RQ-170 Sentinel, better known as the "Kandahar beast."**

The fifth symptom there will be no time to see or understand: phenomenally precise artillery fire from well beyond the range of Ukrainian artillery. Fire stations and guidance of the Russian army work through satellites and their associated drones. Russian modernized missiles now have homing-on systems as well as being more explosive and having longer range.

Ukraine does not have its own satellites. Only two communications satellites. Operational artillery correction is not possible with the American satellites.
Dozens (hundreds, if it comes to that) of new combat helicopters controlling every highway will hunt down armored vehicles, trains, cars. Rail traffic will be paralyzed, firepower stopped, bridges blown. And at the rear, the lights go out - broken substations. Simultaneously civilian and military headquarters in the rear and their individual rulers will be liquidated by pre- embedded groups.

And then ... from out of the sky: silk. Airborne Division and the GRU (Special Service Division).

http://fortruss.blogspot.ca/2015/08/suppose-for-minute-that-our-army-is.html


On another note.. if i were to bet..Knowing how much The US pentagon hates Russia , The Ukrainians have to be helped/supplied with nothing less than the best ,that Ameircan have ,Patriot missiles smuggled secretly in Ukraine or Aegis like defenses and or Israeli Iron Dome ,withing firing range of DOnetsk and Lugansk.. Means to get rid of them Russia will need to go deep inside Ukraine territory.. to shut down the Ukraine air defenses. Last i saw Americans were testing 400km range air defenses..  so their desperation into make it expensive any fight with Ukraine will no doubt make Americans to use everything they have.. This war , that the American Government is  provoking between Ukraine and RUssia ,provides an once in a life time opportunity for Americans to test their military hardware against Russia Airforce.. while keeping in secret their help to Ukrainians in the conflict and their air defenses being deployed there.  
And if their Air defenses Fail ,they can keep it secretly and avoid the humiliation in case their defense defeated.  

All said ,i will not be surprised Ukraine have deployed already the best military hardware US and Israel have.. but also some hardware from Norther European nations that are Russophobic ,when it comes to air defenses and counter electronics too.. There could be also Rail Guns too.. The last news reveal last night Ukraine began a massive shelling of Donetsk and Lugansk after Poroshenko the pig ,claimed to support minsk-2.

So make no mistake , any Russian Airforce incursion in Ukraine Airspace will have to deal with the best military hardware that US and Israel have.  IT will force Russia to use their best secret
technology too.. which is really unfortunate ,because such things are better to keep it for a real direct war against US and NATO.. that their nation is at war with them.

I think it will be better if Russia supply Attack drones to Donetsk and Lugansk ,being operated by Russian specialist.. that way no risk of being seen as "Invading Ukraine".. something they could use as excuse to not implement Minsk-2 before the dateline expire.

Vann7 wrote:
how it will be if Russian army really invaded Ukraine..
...

http://fortruss.blogspot.ca/2015/08/suppose-for-minute-that-our-army-is.html

More info on the Russian electronic warfare technology can be found in this artlicle.

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2015/02/16/blind_and_conquer_top_5_russian_radio_electronic_warfare_systems_41393.html

Erk wrote:

Vann7 wrote:
how it will be if Russian army really invaded Ukraine..
...

http://fortruss.blogspot.ca/2015/08/suppose-for-minute-that-our-army-is.html

More info on the Russian electronic warfare technology can be found in this artlicle.

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2015/02/16/blind_and_conquer_top_5_russian_radio_electronic_warfare_systems_41393.html

Ironically they left out one of the most powerful ECM systems...'Murmansk-BN' which has ECM attack range of 5,000 km, and can cover an area with a 10,000 km diameter.



https://www.russiadefence.net/t2461p120-russian-ecm-ew-equipment

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Ironically they left out one of the most powerful ECM systems...'Murmansk-BN' which has ECM attack range of 5,000 km, and can cover an area with a 10,000 km diameter.

https://www.russiadefence.net/t2461p120-russian-ecm-ew-equipment

Yeah, rbth.com stories can often be a bit strange like that.

Doesn't the Murmansk-BN mainly deal with shortwave? To get a 5,000km range without being in orbit, it's going to rely on ionospheric skip which doesn't happen on very high frequencies, they tend to punch straight though into space, you can get some tropospheric scatter on VHF. Most command will be microwave beams from satellites.