The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

Khepesh wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Return???

It never left and never will.

Clans, slavery, feudalism, capitalism, communism, corporate rule... all different names for the same thing.

Well, there will always be beggars, but in modern "developed" countries there is not what we see on that photo as a part of normal life as it used to be, where all working class people were permanently on the verge of poverty and maybe had accomodation tied to their employment, and if they lost their job they were literaly in the gutter. And these days the rich will not get away with having the poor tug their forelock and bow as these "gods" make their "majestic progress" in their carridges. A good sign of the times is, if you saw, a year or so ago when a priest tried to kiss Putin's hand, and Putin was shocked, almost disgusted that anybody would want to debase themselves with such nonsense.

Depends on exactly when and where. It was exactly this way in the 1950's where I grew up.

It's called "the good old boys" system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_ol'_boy

well socialized men who live in rural and generally Southern areas.

It is commonly applied to men with a family of generational wealth or prestige,

someone who engages in cronyism among men who have known each other for a long period of time. Collectively these people are referred to using the slang term, good ol' boy network (also known as an old boys' club).

flamming_python wrote:

Khepesh wrote:Novorossiya Raccoons found this by ukrops "historian" Viktor Berezyak. "Atlantis - The secrets of Ukranian ancient History". He says that Atlanteans were the original Ukranians, and also the Sumerians were really Ukranians. People believe this crap, and what is even more disturbing, and I think I wrote about this before, real and properly qualified ukrops historian, Sergei Yekelchuk, has tried to claim that a group of people from 40,000 years ago can be identified as "Ukranian". I don't think even North Korea is this mad, I don't think any country is this mad....

To be fair we have the same kind of authors and books in Russia too.

Dugin and Gumilev are amongst the most well known but there are plenty of more crazy ones too.

What you people have?

Everyone knows Atlantica sunk in Wolga not in the Atlanic!

KomissarBojanchev wrote:It was the white bourgeoisie and dvoryans that destroyed russian unity  by sending foreign imperialist invaders, allying with the poles, Petlyura, Basmachis and terrorizing the jews and russian peasants. How was the donbass "ukrainized" when practically no one spoke galician  during the ussr,  and right wing nationalism was strictly punished?

The ussr thought it was doing the ukrainians a favor by promoting their identity towards them, thus strengthining the international sviet alliance and stopping the influence of bandera. And indeed it worked since there was no nationalist feeling in ukraine before 1991 outside of galicia which wasnt soviet initially anyways.  So stop spreading the retarded lies of evuhl jew plots against godly russia.
Russophobia in ukraine was strictly a result of antisoviet lies spread by subversive western bourgeois propaganda and NGOs since the 1930s, started by william hearst, the nazis and the pilsudski dictatorship up to the NED in the 90s

Alrighty then, I get it, you are a true believer. And as all true believers eventually learn, there are things and matters where they are very limited and badly outclassed.

No, anti-Russian steering of erstwhile Ruthenians does not start in 1930s, and no, there was no call for foreign aid by "traitorous whites", and for that matter, the foreign assistance was useless or actually detrimental to their cause, because while providing extremely limited benefits it could be easily portrayed by Bolsheviks as foreign invasion. But what I find most amusing is the fact that supposedly pacifist Bolsheviks pulled Russia out of a winning war (if you want to tell me about domestic conditions and homefront, you might want to research conditions in, for example, Austro-Hungary, where sawdust+grape wine residue "bread" became norm and bands of deserters and demobilised soldiers roamed the countryside), signed terrible amnistice, broke up ethnic and historic Russian borders and then proceeded to wage (+civil) wars for the next several years, during which far more people were killed and many more fled than during WW1 in Russia.

And now for the anti-Russian opinion and Ukrainian nationalism. You see, Poles and Habsburgs initially counted on Uniatization to sufficiently distance Ruthenian folk from their Rus kin. That didn't work for everyone. The Habsburgs in second part of 19th century opted to support the spread of all-Ukrainian ideology and nationalism, and direct and indirect suppresion of Russophile idea. II Reich wholeheartedly took to the idea, and furthered it during WW1. Actually, there were ideological predecessors to modern UkrOps fighting in Austro-Hungarian army, in special separate formations, against Russian Empire, reportedly distinguishing themselves. We all know the opinion of III Reich on the matter of Ukrainian nationalism. And we are still talking about Galicia, lands nowhere close to east bank Ukraine.

I would like to ask you, do you know, if you can find such data, where one can first glimpse upon this "historic" Ukrainian identity on official census data? And by what Bolshevik progressive totally not anti-Russian magic did all those Russian inhabitants of Ukrainian SSR disappear, when one compares last imperial census of the area and all those following Soviet ones?

The only thing one has to remember is that people inhabiting Rostov, Kuban and various Siberian areas have plenty in common with modern Ukrainians yet somehow didn't become so vehemently anti-Russian. By all accounts, anti-Russian sentiment today is spread far further than just "non-Soviet Galicia", and even includes many areas and cities founded by Russians and with a Russian majority at the beginning of 20th century. We all know during which time the foundations for that were laid. You have a funny and amazingly ironic avatar, btw., for an "internationalist" truebeliever, but the Volga parts are missing. I couldn't resist, being called out.

I read it again, and laughed out loud. "No nationalist feelings outside Galicia" until 1990s. Suuuuure. Events of 1991, 2004 and 2014 really prove your point, notwithstanding all those nice "soft" UkrOp decisions, rehabilitations, language, media and history shenanigans.

Check this out.


SAM downs ukrainian UAV over Donezk


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=58d_1444080255

Apparently wreckage from the missile.

Ceasefire over? Multiple explosions ring out in Donetsk

Ukraine moves tanks and missile launchers to the front line

flamming_python wrote:

To be fair we have the same kind of authors and books in Russia too.

Dugin and Gumilev are amongst the most well known but there are plenty of more crazy ones too.

One of them goes by the pseudo-name of Alexander Peresvet; a famous Russian warrior-monk from the Middle Ages. He's written a whole series of books about BS; one of them which I bought and haven't started reading yet, because unlike the others it actually looks interesting (even if it's likely BS).

Unfortunately we have the worst of these fantasists, Anatoliy Fomenko. And then there are those engaged in pseudoscience such as Ninel Kulagina in the past, but there are many like her still claiming all manner of nonsense to be the "truth". But on the other hand, it makes Russia very interesting and I find that people actually like the idea of all these weird people, and those who form strange communes in Siberia such as the Vissarion sect. All of them fools, but perhaps without them life would be more dull.

Edit: And I was thinking, are not men like Rasputin, a total charlatan of course, a very colorful and fascinating addition to history, and now we know that Alexander I faked his death and lived as a starets in Siberia until about the 1860s.

Word is it will be announced today that the elections are to be cancelled until February. This seems bad at first glimpse, but it is a defeat for Poroshenko even tho ukrops are already starting to shout "peremoga!". Essentially for the elections to go ahead under Ukranian law, which is what would happen, Poroshenko needs to remove some of his diktats about Donbass, particulary about it being "occupied territory". Seems if he does this, which will be a defeat, and the elections are then held in February, then Merkel and Hollande will recognise the results. It is more involved than this of course but that is the basics.

Khepesh wrote:Word is it will be announced today that the elections are to be cancelled until February. This seems bad at first glimpse, but it is a defeat for Poroshenko even tho ukrops are already starting to shout "peremoga!". Essentially for the elections to go ahead under Ukranian law, which is what would happen, Poroshenko needs to remove some of his diktats about Donbass, particulary about it being "occupied territory". Seems if he does this, which will be a defeat, and the elections are then held in February, then Merkel and Hollande will recognise the results. It is more involved than this of course but that is the basics.

Does it affect the Novorussian armed forces and the control of the border?

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Khepesh wrote:Word is it will be announced today that the elections are to be cancelled until February. This seems bad at first glimpse, but it is a defeat for Poroshenko even tho ukrops are already starting to shout "peremoga!". Essentially for the elections to go ahead under Ukranian law, which is what would happen, Poroshenko needs to remove some of his diktats about Donbass, particulary about it being "occupied territory". Seems if he does this, which will be a defeat, and the elections are then held in February, then Merkel and Hollande will recognise the results. It is more involved than this of course but that is the basics.

Does it affect the Novorussian armed forces and the control of the border?

No, because for that to happen it will mean Kiev complying 100% with Minsk, and they cannot do that. Also I suspect that if at any point in the future ukrops are seen about to take control of the borders, then there will be a coup in Donbass irrespective of the consequences.

Also today ukrops have been shouting that flag of DNR had dissapeared from government buildings, which is not true as this photo taken today in Donetsk shows

Khepesh wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Khepesh wrote:Word is it will be announced today that the elections are to be cancelled until February. This seems bad at first glimpse, but it is a defeat for Poroshenko even tho ukrops are already starting to shout "peremoga!". Essentially for the elections to go ahead under Ukranian law, which is what would happen, Poroshenko needs to remove some of his diktats about Donbass, particulary about it being "occupied territory". Seems if he does this, which will be a defeat, and the elections are then held in February, then Merkel and Hollande will recognise the results. It is more involved than this of course but that is the basics.

Does it affect the Novorussian armed forces and the control of the border?

No, because for that to happen it will mean Kiev complying 100% with Minsk, and they cannot do that. Also I suspect that if at any point in the future ukrops are seen about to take control of the borders, then there will be a coup in Donbass irrespective of the consequences.

.........................

Actually, thanks to the "people militia" part of Minsk2 (courtesy of you-know-who ) NAF gets to keep all their toys and troops as part of aforementioned militia.

JohninMK wrote:
.........................................

I think delaying the elections is a good move. The actual date is pretty meaningless as not a lot will change after the. Poro is hoist on his own petard of insisting they did not happen, now that Donbas is agreeing that is one less argument he has against them. Also it gives more time for the 'Ukraine doesn't matter to the EU' to sink in in Kiev and for politics to move on (into the depths!).

One of those times when more time is good.

Agreed, from now on time works 100% in Novorossia favor, time for Porkins to get slowly roasted by his goons.


ALSO:

Beware NAF, your doom is upon you!!!

Ukraine Rules the Skies With New Korean War-Era Helicopter

Ukraine presented a new helicopter, apparently made from written-off 1940s US choppers and Soviet-designed engines no longer in production......

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151006/1028086154/ukraine-presents-old-new-chopper.html#ixzz3nntzeCku

So all sorts of political parties in Ukraine and including Donbass (in favor of its autonomy) will participate in the elections. Is that a correct interpretation? Or is Poroshenko going to sabotage the election process by calling the separatists parties in Donbass as illegitimate? It'd be only logical to say that the local Donbass parties in favor of separatism (thus federalization) will get most if not all votes. It's also important to mention that OSCE observers will be closely monitoring the elections. If everything goes well and no violations are reported Kiev has no other option than legitimize the separatist parties.

I am asking because I haven't closely studied the Minsk documents. Anyone else up to date and who can predict what's going to happen in February?

higurashihougi wrote:16000 desserter.........

http://sputniknews.com/military/20151005/1028034616/ukraine-army-deserters.html

As many as 16,000 personnel from the Ukrainian Armed Forces, many of them armed, are believed to have deserted the conflict zone in Kiev's so-called 'anti-terrorist operation' in eastern Ukraine, Chief Military Prosecutor Anatoly Matios told reporters.

"We have investigated 16,000 criminal cases against deserters, who left the zone of the military operation; a significant number left together with their weapons," Matios noted, in an interview for Ukraine's TV 112.

Matios also appeared to blame the country's Internal Affairs Ministry, noting that in the course of the past year, the ministry had caught and launched criminal cases against no more than a thousand of the suspected deserters.

"In the course of a year, the organs of the Internal Affairs Ministry have not been able to find more than a thousand of them. Where did they go? They did not fly away; they went home. This means that local police are not doing their job, with their monthly salary of 2,000 hryvnia [about $95 US]. It means that the whole system is not working."

Deserters? You mean they deserted for the afterlife?

Neutrality wrote:So all sorts of political parties in Ukraine and including Donbass (in favor of its autonomy) will participate in the elections. Is that a correct interpretation? Or is Poroshenko going to sabotage the election process by calling the separatists parties in Donbass as illegitimate? It'd be only logical to say that the local Donbass parties in favor of separatism (thus federalization) will get most if not all votes. It's also important to mention that OSCE observers will be closely monitoring the elections. If everything goes well and no violations are reported Kiev has no other option than legitimize the separatist parties.

I am asking because I haven't closely studied the Minsk documents. Anyone else up to date and who can predict what's going to happen in February?

Unlikely to be any elections next February. That month was only selected as it was sufficient months away to give breathing space now. If the situation has not substantially changed by February then a further delay. Also depends on Syria and the better it goes in Syria then the easier to solve Ukraine.

German TV .. seems Poroshenko is very popular There..

http://ria.ru/syria_chronicle/20151007/1298007014.html

LOL. Seriously, Ukrainian government are even willing to support ISIS. Go figure.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:16000 desserter.........

http://sputniknews.com/military/20151005/1028034616/ukraine-army-deserters.html

As many as 16,000 personnel from the Ukrainian Armed Forces, many of them armed, are believed to have deserted the conflict zone in Kiev's so-called 'anti-terrorist operation' in eastern Ukraine, Chief Military Prosecutor Anatoly Matios told reporters.

"We have investigated 16,000 criminal cases against deserters, who left the zone of the military operation; a significant number left together with their weapons," Matios noted, in an interview for Ukraine's TV 112.

Matios also appeared to blame the country's Internal Affairs Ministry, noting that in the course of the past year, the ministry had caught and launched criminal cases against no more than a thousand of the suspected deserters.

"In the course of a year, the organs of the Internal Affairs Ministry have not been able to find more than a thousand of them. Where did they go? They did not fly away; they went home. This means that local police are not doing their job, with their monthly salary of 2,000 hryvnia [about $95 US]. It means that the whole system is not working."

Deserters? You mean they deserted for the afterlife?

Thinking that too. Easy way to save face for the Ukrop government. With that said, I'm not sure which is more shameful, the fact that nobody wants to fight for you in the pointless war or losing more men in a year and a half than the US led collation has lost in the entire War on Terror to a bunch of rebels that started and still mainly consist of fed up locals.