Poseidon carrier Submarines

Has anyone considered the idea that Belgorod is designed to launch and recover Poseidon drones?  The docking arrangement for connection of specialist deepwater subs like Losharik could conceivably include a moon-pool arrangement that could be used to recover the drones and stack them on racks internally?

If this was the case, it would resolve why so many people think that the Belgorod design doesn't make sense - why equip a deep-sea sub tender with doomsday nukes? If the above is the case, she is a dedicated UUV tender that can double as a mothership for manned spy subs.

It would also add weight to the idea that Posiedons aren't launched on Doomsday, but on routine patrols, maybe lasting months, and then recovered and returned to shore for inspection, refurbishment, repair, refulled if needed, and maybe download of detailed logfiles and data store.

A lot of conjecture here...  but if it turns out to be true, and if it works reliably, it would be a truly massive paradigm change for Sea Power capabilities.  Eg a conventional armed version could track USN carriers and be available 24/7 for a kill on short notice...  

Big_Gazza wrote:Has anyone considered the idea that Belgorod is designed to launch and recover Poseidon drones?  The docking arrangement for connection of specialist deepwater subs like Losharik could conceivably include a moon-pool arrangement that could be used to recover the drones and stack them on racks internally?

If this was the case, it would resolve why so many people think that the Belgorod design doesn't make sense - why equip a deep-sea sub tender with doomsday nukes? If the above is the case, she is a dedicated UUV tender that can double as a mothership for manned spy subs.

It would also add weight to the idea that Posiedons aren't launched on Doomsday, but on routine patrols, maybe lasting months, and then recovered and returned to shore for inspection, refurbishment, repair, refulled if needed, and maybe download of detailed logfiles and data store.

A lot of conjecture here...  but if it turns out to be true, and if it works reliably, it would be a truly massive paradigm change for Sea Power capabilities. Eg a conventional armed version could track USN carriers and be available 24/7 for a kill on short notice... 

Good observation, such role for Poseidon has been indeed hinted, but their use as a conventional weapon that can be launched and recovered and used for sea control on a continuous way has been eclipsed by its possibilities as strategic one. We were discussing in other thread about the need to create unmanned subs to compensate the advantage in USN sub numbers, which are the most difficult to counter for Russia currently, and Poseidon would be ideal in that role indeed. It would be very difficult for a bigger sub to avoid being tracked by way smaller, silent and numerous ones, with essentially unlimited endurance and besides capable to operate at extreme depths or wait in the bottom for weeks for "prey" to pass by... I would not be surprised if such an operational concept is unveiled in the next few years, as I am sure the kind of capabilities tested in Vityaz where not purely civilian. It could even threaten the submarine part of the US (and British and French) nuclear forces and that would be extremely concerning for them, in particular for those two later countries it would essentially mean removing them from the club of nuclear powers altogether...

There is of course no reason why, if this is the case, that a Poseidon tender needs to be a submersible. I'm thinking that for Russian & Arctic waters at least, the tender could be a specialist surface ship with an underwater moon pool and deployable manipulators to assist launch and recovery. Enemy survelliance could track her as she patrols but they won't know for certain when and where she performs launch and recovery. Not as stealthy as a sub tender, but vastly cheaper to build and operate.

The launch is not an IF. It´s a sure thing. But most of the time the Poseidon is called a "super-torpedo" which means launch, travel, impact. Bumm. In the case of Poseidon the travel phase could be weeks or even month. If the sub can also recover the UUV then it could be used for deterrence or even recon missions just like a sub.

Leads to the issue of the west frantically trying to keep tabs on this sub which makes it priority number one, which would limit its ability to do other things.

In contrast having a drone version of Poseidon with no nuke warhead might be useful in general peace time rather than tying the subs and weapons up like ICBMs are really only useful for one thing... well satellite launcher when they approach expiry date.

A tricky thing.

Are there some openings/doors under the tower?

It makes sense to put doors at deck level for access because otherwise climbing up to the top of the sail and then back down the same height to get to the inner hull inside the submarine would require an external ladder and lots of climbing.

Bingo. That´s why I wrote "under the tower".

The first carrier of "Poseidons" completes state tests

The first carrier of "Poseidons" - a nuclear submarine (NPS) of special purpose "Belgorod" of project 09852 will soon become part of fleet, the transfer of the submarine is scheduled for this year, said a source in the shipbuilding industry.

The nuclear submarine K-329 "Belgorod" is completing state tests, which are taking place in the Barents Sea. There are no exact dates for their completion and the transfer of the submarine to the fleet, however, it was previously reported that this would happen "in the summer of 2022", most likely by Navy Day. After the ceremony of raising the flag of St. Andrew, "Belgorod" will continue trial operation in the Northern Fleet, then go to the Pacific, where it will serve.

The submarine "Belgorod" is currently undergoing state tests in the Barents Sea, after they are completed, it will be handed over to the fleet

- leads TASS source words.

Factory sea trials of the Belgorod special-purpose nuclear submarine began at the end of June last year, when the submarine first went to sea. Previously, the submarine was supposed to enter the fleet by the end of 2021, but the tests continued.

The multi-purpose nuclear submarine Belgorod, launched on April 23, 2019, will be an experimental carrier of Poseidon drones, the technical characteristics of the submarine were not disclosed. The regular carrier will be the Khabarovsk nuclear submarine of project 09851. Earlier it was reported that it was planned to build four Poseidon carriers - two each for the Northern and Pacific fleets. Three of them will be built as part of the current state armaments program until 2027, and one more will most likely be laid down as part of the new program.

https://en.topwar.ru/198275-pervyj-nositel-posejdonov-zavershaet-gosudarstvennye-ispytanija.html

Today, July 8, 2022, at the largest shipbuilding enterprise in Russia - JSC "PO" Sevmash "(part of the USC) - a solemn ceremony of signing the acceptance certificate and the transfer of the Belgorod research submarine to the Navy took place.

Expanding the news:

Sevmash handed over the Belgorod nuclear submarine-Poseidon carrier-to the Russian Navy
08.07.2022 14:36:27
Moscow. July 8. Sevmash has handed over the Belgorod special-purpose submarine to the Russian Navy, the company's press service said on Friday.
"Today, on July 8, 2022, at the largest shipbuilding enterprise of Russia - JSC PO Sevmash (part of USC) - a solemn ceremony of signing the acceptance certificate and transferring the Belgorod research submarine to the Navy was held," the report says.
Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy Nikolai Evmenov noted that advanced scientific achievements and the latest construction technologies using the existing technical reserve were used to create the ship.
"The Belgorod submarine opens up new opportunities for Russia to conduct various research, allows it to conduct diverse scientific expeditions and rescue operations in the most remote areas of the World's oceans," said Evmenov, whose words are quoted in the message.
It was reported that the carriers of the Poseidon unmanned underwater strike systems will be the Belgorod project 09852 and Khabarovsk project 09851 submarines.
Poseidon is a nuclear-powered UAV submarine. In February 2019, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said that Poseidon had successfully passed sea testing grounds.
The Belgorod submarine was launched in April 2019. "Belgorod" was planned to be transferred to the Russian Navy in 2020, First Deputy General Director of Sevmash Sergey Voronko reported earlier.
The Belgorod nuclear-powered submarine was originally built under Project 949A. As noted in the corporate magazine of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, " its hull was re-mortgaged in 2012 under a new project, already without cruise missile launchers."
In July 2020, the Russian Defense Ministry reported that work on the creation of an ocean system with nuclear submarines-drones "Poseidon" is being completed.
"The Navy, together with defense industry enterprises, is testing the first nuclear-powered carrier submarine of the Poseidon marine unmanned underwater vehicles, which was launched in March 2019. The crew of the ship continues practical development of new weapons on a regular carrier. Testing is proceeding as planned, " the Russian Defense Ministry said at the time.
"Currently, work is being successfully completed on the creation of modern weapons systems for the Navy: the underwater complex equipped with Poseidon unmanned vehicles and the Zircon hypersonic missile system," the Russian Defense Ministry reported.
In 2018, the command of the Russian Navy announced that an ocean-going multi-purpose system was being created in Russia, including nuclear submarines with self-propelled underwater vehicles with a nuclear power plant, called Poseidon.
"The presence of these weapons will allow the Navy to solve a wide range of tasks in the far sea zone, in waters close to the enemy's territory," Vladimir Korolev, then commander - in - chief of the Russian Navy, said in 2018.

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=577667&lang=RU

"The presence of these weapons will allow the Navy to solve a wide range of tasks in the far sea zone, in waters close to the enemy's territory," Vladimir Korolev, then commander - in - chief of the Russian Navy, said in 2018.

Further indication that Poseidon may not be "just" a doomsday weapon, rather have that as a marginal function. As previously discussed, that thing is simply ideal to be released in the middle of the ocean by carrier subs like Belgorod and stealthily navigate at low speed and seafloor depth under autonomous command to staging areas close to where the nuclear subs of the potential enemy are based. There, wait (for months or years) passively until a designated nuclear sub passes by. Then track it from the distance, with the unfair advantage of going way deeper, being way smaller/quieter and masking itself with the propulsive shadow of the tracked sub. Think eliminating the SSGN and SSBN of the West in a quick, decapitating blow if the time of need comes...