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Great news; this means that the rest of the Delta IVs (and the Delta III) can be comfortably either retired or converted into special-purpose subs over the next 10 years.George1 wrote:verkhoturye51 wrote:Knyaz Vladimir started factory trials on 28th November and dived for the first time.
Borei no. 11 & 12 to start production in 2024.
Borei no 9th and 10th
Russia to build 2 more Borei-A strategic nuclear-powered submarines by 2028
The Russian Navy currently operates three Project 955 Borei submarines
MOSCOW, November 30. /TASS/. Russia will build two more Project 955A Borei-A serial-produced nuclear-powered strategic submarines at the Sevmash Shipyard and their total number will rise to ten, a source in the defense industry told TASS on Friday.
"The state armament program for 2018-2027 includes the construction of two more Project 955A Borei submarines that have not yet received their names. The construction will begin at the Sevmash in 2024," the source said, adding that "the first submarine should be delivered to the Fleet in 2026 and the second in 2027."
The Russian Navy currently operates three Project 955 Borei submarines. The Project 955A Borei-A lead submarine is undergoing shipbuilders’ sea trials and four serial-produced Project 955A submarines have been laid down and are under construction, the source said.
"With the keel-laying of two more underwater cruisers, the number of Project 955 and Project 955A strategic submarines in the Russian Navy will rise to ten. Five of them will be operational in the Northern Fleet and the other five in the Pacific Fleet," the source said.
More:
http://tass.com/defense/1033658
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Project 955: Borei class SSBN
flamming_python- Posts : 9547
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Hole
Hole- Posts : 11122
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The 667BDRM´s received a overhaul and small modernisation and carry a new SLBM, they can stay in service until at least 2030/2035. No need to hurry after the next four Borei-A´s have been finished.
flamming_python- Posts : 9547
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TrueHole wrote:The 667BDRM´s received a overhaul and small modernisation and carry a new SLBM, they can stay in service until at least 2030/2035. No need to hurry after the next four Borei-A´s have been finished.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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Those Deltas should be converted into SSGNs (Ohio style) once new Boreis arrive
They are in good condition overall and have been maintained properly throughout their service life, their only downside is noise which is not relevant for for missile farms
This way Navy can get boost in number of VLS tubes without needing to overinvest in surface fleet
Corvettes and frigates would always have 100+ cruise missiles on speed dial
verkhoturye51- Posts : 438
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The downside is expensive maintenance of old nuclear submarines. True, Orenburg and Podmoskovye were converted from new (cca 15 year old) SSBNs, but newer GUGI's carrier submarines like Belgorod and Khabarovsk are newly build, at the time when Kalmar class Podolsk and Svyatoy Georgiy Pobedonosets SSBNs will be scrapped. I don't see missile supply as a bottleneck in Russian navy, which is probably the reason why there are no submarine missile carriers in Russian or other navies.
I however very much agree with building SSNs (also SSGNs) in the 2020s, because this is the time when most US LA-class hunters will retire. The total SSN number will drop record low (from current 60+ to cca 45, including newly made Virginias). So if Russians can strategically exploit this decade for making perhaps 5 Huskies they'll put a lot of presure on the US in the 2030s. They'll have to make 3 submarines per year - 2 Virginias and 1 Columbia, so other areas of army will suffer.
I however very much agree with building SSNs (also SSGNs) in the 2020s, because this is the time when most US LA-class hunters will retire. The total SSN number will drop record low (from current 60+ to cca 45, including newly made Virginias). So if Russians can strategically exploit this decade for making perhaps 5 Huskies they'll put a lot of presure on the US in the 2030s. They'll have to make 3 submarines per year - 2 Virginias and 1 Columbia, so other areas of army will suffer.
GarryB- Posts : 40548
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If they are going to convert old subs to new purposes an upgrade of systems and equipment to new modern stuff should lower the requirement for maintanence and simplify the process...
hoom- Posts : 2352
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That depends entirely on to what extent they are able to actually patrol without being picked up & followed by a US SSN.The 667BDRM´s received a overhaul and small modernisation and carry a new SLBM, they can stay in service until at least 2030/2035. No need to hurry after the next four Borei-A´s have been finished.
From my understanding the Deltas have never been considered particularly quiet & I believe at least one case of '90s sub collisions has involved a US sub trailing a Delta so IMO the sooner they're out of service the better.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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hoom wrote:That depends entirely on to what extent they are able to actually patrol without being picked up & followed by a US SSN.The 667BDRM´s received a overhaul and small modernisation and carry a new SLBM, they can stay in service until at least 2030/2035. No need to hurry after the next four Borei-A´s have been finished.
From my understanding the Deltas have never been considered particularly quiet & I believe at least one case of '90s sub collisions has involved a US sub trailing a Delta so IMO the sooner they're out of service the better.
Missile farms don't need to be quiet, slot Kalibr missiles in them and let 'em rip
verkhoturye51- Posts : 438
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Mid life modernization of Antey costs
180 mio (new missiles and electronics)
End life modernization of Akula costs 800 mio.
End life modernization of Kalmar would be somewhere in between, but could be closer to second number, due to new reactor fuel.
New Borei costs 430 mio.
180 mio (new missiles and electronics)
End life modernization of Akula costs 800 mio.
End life modernization of Kalmar would be somewhere in between, but could be closer to second number, due to new reactor fuel.
New Borei costs 430 mio.
Arrow- Posts : 3492
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Borey is very cheap. Thus, its level of advancement is much weaker than 885, it costs USD 2 billion.
So USA will hava about 45 Virginia class submarina in 2030. Russia will have about six new 885/885M and mayby two Husky. So about 8 SSN. USA 45 Virgina class Russia 8 SSN
So USA will hava about 45 Virginia class submarina in 2030. Russia will have about six new 885/885M and mayby two Husky. So about 8 SSN. USA 45 Virgina class Russia 8 SSN
verkhoturye51- Posts : 438
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It doesn't really matter if it's two times cheaper. Prices aren't really comparable because of higher purchasing power in Russia.
By 2030 Russia could have 13 modernized old SSNs, 7 Yasens and at least 24 SSKs (Varshavyanka's range is 7500 nmi, so you have a return ticket from Kamchatka to Los Angeles).
Russia hopes to get one Husky by 2027 (very optimistic, considering recent experiences with new classes), higher numbers are pure speculations.
So 45 vs. 45. What matters is what happens after 2030, when mass production of Huskies starts.
By 2030 Russia could have 13 modernized old SSNs, 7 Yasens and at least 24 SSKs (Varshavyanka's range is 7500 nmi, so you have a return ticket from Kamchatka to Los Angeles).
Russia hopes to get one Husky by 2027 (very optimistic, considering recent experiences with new classes), higher numbers are pure speculations.
So 45 vs. 45. What matters is what happens after 2030, when mass production of Huskies starts.
flamming_python- Posts : 9547
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Arrow wrote:Borey is very cheap. Thus, its level of advancement is much weaker than 885, it costs USD 2 billion.
So USA will hava about 45 Virginia class submarina in 2030. Russia will have about six new 885/885M and mayby two Husky. So about 8 SSN. USA 45 Virgina class Russia 8 SSN
Doesn't work that way bud.
Saudi Arabia is full of overpriced overengineered weapons and it didn't help them none.
What was Australia spending 15 billion dollars on again; a dozen diesel-electric Japanese subs?
Sounds like a great deal. Not.
For the money they're paying per sub, you can get a fully-modernized Typhoon-class SSBN with a massive complement of Kalibr cruise missiles.
Russia went into Syria and paid for the operations out of its training budget; a tiny fraction of what the US or even Britain spent in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Doesn't always work that way of course. Russian fighter jets aren't that much cheaper than NATO ones. But for subs there's a huge difference in price; despite the technology and engineering solutions being comparable - or actually more expensive in the Russian case; such as double hulls.
And we're talking about SSBNs here, not SSNs. Don't know why you brought the Virginias and Yasens into the picture. Troll.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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verkhoturye51 wrote:..........
End life modernization of Kalmar would be somewhere in between, but could be closer to second number, due to new reactor fuel.
.......
No modernization of Deltas is required for land-attack function, just basic maintenance and missile adapters.
And they will probably need less than half of usual crew complement with nuclear missiles out of the picture.
Bargain.
verkhoturye51- Posts : 438
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Perhaps I should change the font to make it easier to read.
"Missile adapters" have been put on Antey. Only change from Granit missile to UKSK for Kalibrs + minor change of electronics. Price? 180 mio per boat!
That was on cca 20 year old Anteys. Now I'm talking about 35-40 year old Delfins and Kalmars, that have been made for cca 45 year lifetime. Don't you think that refueling the reactor and other necessary changes just to keep it running would exceed price of Borei?
Kalibrization has gone a long way. Soon there will be 15 Buyans, 22 Karakurts, 6 Gorshkovs, 24 Steregushchys, 8 Anteys, 7 Yasens, 24 Varshavyankas/Ladas with this missiles not to mention Husky SSGNs, all for protection of 2 bastions. Mission accomplished.
In 2020s Russian focus will shift to blue water navy with Gorshkov Ms and Priboys. From defense to global positioning and building relations with allies, protecting SLOC etc.
"Missile adapters" have been put on Antey. Only change from Granit missile to UKSK for Kalibrs + minor change of electronics. Price? 180 mio per boat!
That was on cca 20 year old Anteys. Now I'm talking about 35-40 year old Delfins and Kalmars, that have been made for cca 45 year lifetime. Don't you think that refueling the reactor and other necessary changes just to keep it running would exceed price of Borei?
Kalibrization has gone a long way. Soon there will be 15 Buyans, 22 Karakurts, 6 Gorshkovs, 24 Steregushchys, 8 Anteys, 7 Yasens, 24 Varshavyankas/Ladas with this missiles not to mention Husky SSGNs, all for protection of 2 bastions. Mission accomplished.
In 2020s Russian focus will shift to blue water navy with Gorshkov Ms and Priboys. From defense to global positioning and building relations with allies, protecting SLOC etc.
slasher- Posts : 196
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verkhoturye51 wrote:It doesn't really matter if it's two times cheaper. Prices aren't really comparable because of higher purchasing power in Russia.
By 2030 Russia could have 13 modernized old SSNs, 7 Yasens and at least 24 SSKs (Varshavyanka's range is 7500 nmi, so you have a return ticket from Kamchatka to Los Angeles).
Russia hopes to get one Husky by 2027 (very optimistic, considering recent experiences with new classes), higher numbers are pure speculations.
So 45 vs. 45. What matters is what happens after 2030, when mass production of Huskies starts.
Just curious. Can you identify what these 13 might comprise of?
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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verkhoturye51 wrote:Perhaps I should change the font to make it easier to read.
"Missile adapters" have been put on Antey. Only change from Granit missile to UKSK for Kalibrs + minor change of electronics. Price? 180 mio per boat!
No missile adapters have been installed on Antei subs (Oscars)
Wherever you got that info they are full of BS
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6171
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PapaDragon wrote:verkhoturye51 wrote:"Missile adapters" have been put on Antey. Only change from Granit missile to UKSK for Kalibrs + minor change of electronics. Price? 180 mio per boat!
No missile adapters have been installed on Antei subs (Oscars)
and how Anteys' Granits tubes were adapted to carry 3 Kalibrs?
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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GunshipDemocracy wrote:PapaDragon wrote:verkhoturye51 wrote:"Missile adapters" have been put on Antey. Only change from Granit missile to UKSK for Kalibrs + minor change of electronics. Price? 180 mio per boat!
No missile adapters have been installed on Antei subs (Oscars)
and how Anteys' Granits tubes were adapted to carry 3 Kalibrs?
None of them were, last one that got out of overhaul still uses Granits
GarryB- Posts : 40548
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We are basically talking about an arsenal ship that carries lots of ready to fire missiles.
If you don't convert a Delta, then you would probably use something like a cargo ship, but a Delta class sub would be orders of magnitude better in terms of stealth.
Also already having been paid for and already in service the cost of removing the SLBM missile tubes and replacing that section area with enormous numbers of UKSK launchers for various cruise missile types should not be enormously expensive.
Upgraded communications systems, and of course the fact that the missiles don't need monitoring or maintenance, so the size of the crew could be slashed to a minimum. That would increase quality of life on board the vessel in terms of space, and likely greatly extend the length of each trip. A decent sub tender could be used to load launch tubes if a change of the balance of missiles was needed... you could have it sailing around the Antarctic with its torpedo tubes loaded with unlimited range nuclear powered cruise missiles, and the main tubes armed with 5,000km range Kh-101/2 variants...
Make the Americans spend more money on 360 degree radar detection systems and threaten them with low flying cruise missiles the way they did to the soviets in the cold war...
The modification could be simply a liner like they do to allow the use of 533mm torpedoes through the 650mm torpedo tubes... in which case it would be rather clever because it could then keep using Granits till they are used up and then convert to Onyx... and that would be all Oscar and Oscar II vessels and of course all Kirov Class Cruisers too... who also use angled Granit launch tubes... even the Kuznetsov could use it...
Obviously there is an intention to upgrade the Kirovs with UKSK at some stage, but some sort of tube liner could make that less of a priority for now.
If you don't convert a Delta, then you would probably use something like a cargo ship, but a Delta class sub would be orders of magnitude better in terms of stealth.
Also already having been paid for and already in service the cost of removing the SLBM missile tubes and replacing that section area with enormous numbers of UKSK launchers for various cruise missile types should not be enormously expensive.
Upgraded communications systems, and of course the fact that the missiles don't need monitoring or maintenance, so the size of the crew could be slashed to a minimum. That would increase quality of life on board the vessel in terms of space, and likely greatly extend the length of each trip. A decent sub tender could be used to load launch tubes if a change of the balance of missiles was needed... you could have it sailing around the Antarctic with its torpedo tubes loaded with unlimited range nuclear powered cruise missiles, and the main tubes armed with 5,000km range Kh-101/2 variants...
Make the Americans spend more money on 360 degree radar detection systems and threaten them with low flying cruise missiles the way they did to the soviets in the cold war...
None of them were, last one that got out of overhaul still uses Granits
The modification could be simply a liner like they do to allow the use of 533mm torpedoes through the 650mm torpedo tubes... in which case it would be rather clever because it could then keep using Granits till they are used up and then convert to Onyx... and that would be all Oscar and Oscar II vessels and of course all Kirov Class Cruisers too... who also use angled Granit launch tubes... even the Kuznetsov could use it...
Obviously there is an intention to upgrade the Kirovs with UKSK at some stage, but some sort of tube liner could make that less of a priority for now.
verkhoturye51- Posts : 438
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PapaDragon wrote:None of them were, last one that got out of overhaul still uses Granits
When you'll learn Russian you'll be able to find official website where six modernization tasks for Orel submarine are listed, incl. change from Granit to Onyx. Anteys are only 22-30 year old boats meaning that they still have 10-20 years of active duty awaiting. Russian (or other) nuclear submarines aren't decomissioned before reaching 40 years. They'll definitely be modernized to UKSK standard. Together with Yasens they'll pose significant threat to any adversary. Russians could use Yasens for patrolling around NATO waters where stealth is most needed and Anteys for less important missions in Pacific and Indian ocean, until Husky SSGN is ready.
These submarines could prove also strategically important. Both Granit and Kalibr can carry nuclear warheads and since US air defences are focused on anti-ballistic defence, the threat of nuclear armed cruise missiles on all 15 SSGNs means that Russians have some serious naval deterrence also besides SSBNs.
GarryB wrote:We are basically talking about an arsenal ship that carries lots of ready to fire missiles.
Sure you can talk... in the meantime Russians are doing the opposite. Rather than putting all eggs in one noisy basket thay are splitting them across many stealthy ones.
flamming_python- Posts : 9547
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I'm thinking that maybe the decision to build an extra two Borei-As came because they've decided to retire the last remaining Typhoon-class SSBN within the next 10 years (or convert it into something else).
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6171
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PapaDragon wrote:
None of them were, last one that got out of overhaul still uses Granits
Tomaks was overhauled but AFAIK not modernized. Omsk, Chelyabinsk, Irkutsk should undergo modernization.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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flamming_python wrote:I'm thinking that maybe the decision to build an extra two Borei-As came because they've decided to retire the last remaining Typhoon-class SSBN within the next 10 years (or convert it into something else).
What do you guys think?
Are these 2 Boreis on top of current order for 4 and planned order for extra 6 or are they part of those orders?
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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flamming_python wrote:Arrow wrote:Borey is very cheap. Thus, its level of advancement is much weaker than 885, it costs USD 2 billion.
So USA will hava about 45 Virginia class submarina in 2030. Russia will have about six new 885/885M and mayby two Husky. So about 8 SSN. USA 45 Virgina class Russia 8 SSN
Doesn't work that way bud.
Saudi Arabia is full of overpriced overengineered weapons and it didn't help them none.
What was Australia spending 15 billion dollars on again; a dozen diesel-electric Japanese subs?
Sounds like a great deal. Not.
For the money they're paying per sub, you can get a fully-modernized Typhoon-class SSBN with a massive complement of Kalibr cruise missiles.
Russia went into Syria and paid for the operations out of its training budget; a tiny fraction of what the US or even Britain spent in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Doesn't always work that way of course. Russian fighter jets aren't that much cheaper than NATO ones. But for subs there's a huge difference in price; despite the technology and engineering solutions being comparable - or actually more expensive in the Russian case; such as double hulls.
And we're talking about SSBNs here, not SSNs. Don't know why you brought the Virginias and Yasens into the picture. Troll.
Arrow is a known retard on this site, spewing nonsense and lies as I called him out on it and proved him wrong with actual data and links. Surprised everyone here has not blocked him yet like vann.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Was my question too.Are these 2 Boreis on top of current order for 4 and planned order for extra 6 or are they part of those orders?
I think its the first 2 of the 'planned 6' & therefore a delay vs previously given 2023 date.