Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

Mustafa wrote:I found this forum on google. Yes i do work in tourism industry like many of my people. I´m animateur, do PR and work as fitness trainer and tour guide. I also wrote that in my profile here. But i´m here private and not for business.

Look, like most of my people i´m patriotic. I love my nation and will always defend it.

There's nothing wrong with that.

What happened today isn´t good. But i wasn´t there and only know what i hear, like evryone here. Fact is, that russia violated our airspace and did so before often enough. I totally agree that a strong message was needed to show russia that turkey will always defend its area. I don´t think shooting down the airplane was good. It would have been ok to shot warning shots and to make clear that next time it would be shot down.

If murder isn't good, then it's "not good".

I will also not apology for many reasons.

1. i don´t speak for my government. And i didn´t order to shot the airplane down.

No one asked you to present apologies.

2. apologies don´t make anything better at all.

Yes this is a triple murder, so indeed it doesn't work.

What happened did happen and both our nations should sit together and talk about what was done wrong so things get better.

I don't think Nations have the luxury to "sit together". Their leaders do. Your leaders and Russian leaders aren't going to get close in at least 40 days.

Look we too have russian guests and we never bad towards them. And i hope a deal can be brought through so relations get better.

This isn't about relations. It's about an act of war. A premeditated, deliberate, act of war. Turkish data puts the Russian plane out of the Turkish airspace at impact and probably at targeting. So the decision to shoot the Russian plane, had nothing to do with tresspassing. This you need to understand.
I believe it just happened so i understand that seems impossible now. Best thing is to wait a few days and then start talks and find a compromise both sides can live with.

I wish russia all the best and hope russians dont see us as bad. Thats what i hope.

Nothing to do with Russians, everything to do with Turkish leadership. Also the fact your army overtly showed itself as a side in this conflict (since it shot down the plane FOR the rebels) there's basically nothing to do about this. I hope you'll understand when Russians arm the Kurds, because that's what Turkey did.

Rodinazombie wrote:One question, why didnt theSAR team not have an escort knowing full well they were going into a hot zone?

they had a Mil Mi 24P, the Mil Mi 8/17 was fired as approaching the crash area, it was forced to land and while the Russians had boarded in the 24P, the Mil Mi 8/17 was hit by TOW.

Mustafa wrote:I found this forum on google. Yes i do work in tourism industry like many of my people. I´m animateur, do PR and work as fitness trainer and tour guide. I also wrote that in my profile here. But i´m here private and not for business.

Look, like most of my people i´m patriotic. I love my nation and will always defend it.

What happened today isn´t good. But i wasn´t there and only know what i hear, like evryone here. Fact is, that russia violated our airspace and did so before often enough. I totally agree that a strong message was needed to show russia that turkey will always defend its area. I don´t think shooting down the airplane was good. It would have been ok to shot warning shots and to make clear that next time it would be shot down.

I will also not apology for many reasons.

1. i don´t speak for my government. And i didn´t order to shot the airplane down.

2. apologies don´t make anything better at all.

What happened did happen and both our nations should sit together and talk about what was done wrong so things get better.

Look we too have russian guests and we never bad towards them. And i hope a deal can be brought through so relations get better.

I believe it just happened so i understand that seems impossible now. Best thing is to wait a few days and then start talks and find a compromise both sides can live with.

I wish russia all the best and hope russians dont see us as bad. Thats what i hope.

I explained my grievances to you. You ignored them.

Personally, I'd like to see Turdkey turned into nuclear ash.
Failing that, having its arsehole torn out by the Kurds, backed by Russia would be fun.

Europeans, Russians, we don't like terrorists. We don't like those who gloss over it, or defend the actions of terrorism instigators. I note thats exactly what you are doing in a rather forked tongued - pr-ist manner.

Your terrorist state is well and truly fucked. And I'm glad. Its all largely down to Turkish citizens going along with Erdoscum. I hope the revenge on Turkey makes Russia's actions in Syria look like the Sound of Music.

Nov. 24, 2015 - 3:33 - Gen. Tom McInerney provides analysis, says map shows Turkey was 'overly aggressive' in shooting down aircraft

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4630118119001/radar-track-shows-russia-jets-path-over-turkish-territory/?#sp=show-clips

Also from the BBC

Was Russia warplane downing an overreaction?

"The Turks say the aircraft was warned about entering Turkey several times, and, when it did not change course, was shot down.

The problem is that according to a radar map released by the Turks themselves, the Russian Sukhoi could at best be described as crossing over Turkish territory.

It flew over a small piece of Turkey that projects into Syria - a tiny isthmus of land that would have taken the fast jet only a few moments to fly over.

So if the plane was shot down, as the Turks say, after entering Turkish airspace, you could equally say it was downed on the way out of Turkish territory too."


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34914375

Rodinazombie wrote:One question, why didnt theSAR team not have an escort knowing full well they were going into a hot zone?

It's a good question. As is why wasn't the SU escorted? Only 34s should possibly go unescorted. This sort of thing bothers me. This is no time to half-ass anything. Why does it always seem to take a major incident, or multiple ones, for this to sink in? Now I'm pissed off as shit and dreaming of retribution.

i want to ask 2 things concerning the incident

1. What happened to 2nd pilot (died on crush?)
2. The corpses of the pilots have been recovered (its a matter of honor) from Russian forces?

Another loser in this is President Obama and the Democratic Party, because American people do not like the fact that Turkey shot the airplane down and certainly don't like what was done to the pilots, or the helicopter. What happened exposes the Obama Administration and the CIA. It exposes it's shady actions with shady characters. It exposes President Obama as not being factual nor honest with the American people.

Russian rescue helicopter 'shot down by Syrian rebels' while searching for pilots of plane downed by Turkey

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-rescue-helicopter-shot-down-6891003

FFS people, today many of you come off as the very people you proclaim to despise: jihadists, terrorists, Nazis etc.

Turkey had a shift in both internal and foreign policies, nothing says it can't happen again.

I fully simpathise with families of deceased servicemen, but online hysterics, overt-the-top emotions and hate rhetorics aren't going to solve anything.

Russia violently made an apperance into a theatre that was embroiled in 4 years of warfare, disrupting hostile plans and destroying a lot of investments and progress they have made, no doubt eliminating quite a number of foreign "advisors" "contractors" and special forces. As everything positive and worthy of achievement in life, it will not come easy and cheap.

Defeating foreign-sponsored insurgents is both a military and political issue, as long as Syrian borders are not under full control there can be no peace, the flow of weapons, supplies and trained fighters will continue. Just like as long as there are numerous armed savages and deranged lunatics roaming around the country.

Leave ordinary people out of this, yes, there are ordinary non-malevolent and non-aggresive people everywhere, EVEN in countries hostile to Russia, and concentrate on doing the best you can in your lives, while believing that professionals in Russia will know how to handle this. I believe Russian intervention in Syria is a turning point, the moment when the sinister cooperation of NATO, Israel, GCC was fully exposed for what it is.

BKP wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:One question, why didnt theSAR team not have an escort knowing full well they were going into a hot zone?

It's a good question. As is why wasn't the SU escorted? Only 34s should possibly go unescorted. This sort of thing bothers me. This is no time to half-ass anything. Why does it always seem to take a major incident, or multiple ones, for this to sink in? Now I'm pissed off as shit and dreaming of retribution.

Escorting him why? Were Russians going to a bomb run into Ankara? The F16 fired from well within Turkish territory, what would you want to do there? This is wanton murder that Turkey pulled off because it could fire first. Now they can't do this shit anymore for a while. It's a bitter lesson that sees three Russians die for nothing. They'll get their revenge, don't you worry.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:One question, why didnt theSAR team not have an escort knowing full well they were going into a hot zone?

It's a good question. As is why wasn't the SU escorted? Only 34s should possibly go unescorted. This sort of thing bothers me. This is no time to half-ass anything. Why does it always seem to take a major incident, or multiple ones, for this to sink in? Now I'm pissed off as shit and dreaming of retribution.

Escorting him why? Were Russians going to a bomb run into Ankara? The F16 fired from well within Turkish territory, what would you want to do there? This is wanton murder that Turkey pulled off because it could fire first. Now they can't do this shit anymore for a while. It's a bitter lesson that sees three Russians die for nothing. They'll get their revenge, don't you worry.

Yeah, no kidding. And I agree with you; it was a murderous ambush. But you're telling me the Russian government and military should've trusted the Turks (or just about anyone)? Sorry, sir, but I disagree on that one.

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:One question, why didnt theSAR team not have an escort knowing full well they were going into a hot zone?

It's a good question. As is why wasn't the SU escorted? Only 34s should possibly go unescorted. This sort of thing bothers me. This is no time to half-ass anything. Why does it always seem to take a major incident, or multiple ones, for this to sink in? Now I'm pissed off as shit and dreaming of retribution.

Escorting him why? Were Russians going to a bomb run into Ankara? The F16 fired from well within Turkish territory, what would you want to do there? This is wanton murder that Turkey pulled off because it could fire first. Now they can't do this shit anymore for a while. It's a bitter lesson that sees three Russians die for nothing. They'll get their revenge, don't you worry.

Yeah, no kidding. And I agree with you; it was a murderous ambush. But you're telling me the Russian government and military should've trusted the Turks (or just about anyone)? Sorry, sir, but I disagree on that one.

Trust in Turkey's handler, USA was everything those two crews had. And no amount of Su 30 would have changed that. At best we'd be sitting atop a clusterfuck with two Turkish F16 shot down and one SU-24 as well. The Russians didn't want to escalate that aspect, now they know they should have. Lesson learned; I hope Turkey is ready for some tears.

One of the world's biggest organisers of ISIS and other terror groups commits a brazen, unashamed act of war against the only country with the balls to confront the terrorists.

A Turkish pr nut basically says it was all Russia's fault - as if it was jsut about to blow up Istanbul.
The posters here are naturally disgusted by this "Turkish nice guy".
And some people are claiming there's an "overreaction" on the forum

Well sorry if you think we're a bit "touchy" about terrorists.
But some of us get a bit angry when a plane load of innocent families are blown out of the sky.
Or lunatics set bombs off in Central Paris.

One or two here need to grow a brain cell or two.

Hopefully I'll wake up tomorrow and that maggot filled "country" will be reduced to rubble.
Failing that, I'm sure most of the civilised world will relish some payback (which will doubtless come)for the many atrocities, Turdkey has doubtless been behind in recent times.

Holiday in Bodrum this century? I'd rather eat an orangutan's shit. Mixed with shards of glass and sulphur acid. For someone to think we'll all "forget about it" pretty soon is just urinating on the graves of the victims of Turdkey's terrorism support.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:One question, why didnt theSAR team not have an escort knowing full well they were going into a hot zone?

It's a good question. As is why wasn't the SU escorted? Only 34s should possibly go unescorted. This sort of thing bothers me. This is no time to half-ass anything. Why does it always seem to take a major incident, or multiple ones, for this to sink in? Now I'm pissed off as shit and dreaming of retribution.

Escorting him why? Were Russians going to a bomb run into Ankara? The F16 fired from well within Turkish territory, what would you want to do there? This is wanton murder that Turkey pulled off because it could fire first. Now they can't do this shit anymore for a while. It's a bitter lesson that sees three Russians die for nothing. They'll get their revenge, don't you worry.

Yeah, no kidding. And I agree with you; it was a murderous ambush. But you're telling me the Russian government and military should've trusted the Turks (or just about anyone)? Sorry, sir, but I disagree on that one.

Trust in  Turkey's handler, USA was everything those two crews had. And no amount of Su 30 would have changed that. At best we'd be sitting atop a clusterfuck with two Turkish F16 shot down and one SU-24 as well. The Russians didn't want to escalate that aspect, now they know they should have. Lesson learned; I hope Turkey is ready for some tears.

I'm not at all sure those F-16s would've taken the opportunity to down the Fencer if some 30s were in the air nearby. The Fencer was low-hanging fruit and they plucked it. But, if the 30s downed the 16s in retaliation, then what? What would the Turks do about it, exactly? Or NATO? I think fuck-all, ultimately.

I think people should stop gagging mustafa . He isn't Turkey's President Erodgan, just a helpless civilian like all of us.



@George

died on crush ? US Backed "Rebels" Executed Russian Pilots While Parachuting

Firebird wrote:One of the world's biggest organisers of ISIS and other terror groups commits a brazen, unashamed act of war against the only country with the balls to confront the terrorists.

A Turkish pr nut basically says it was all Russia's fault - as if it was jsut about to blow up Istanbul.
The posters here are naturally disgusted by this "Turkish nice guy".
And some people are claiming there's an "overreaction" on the forum

Well sorry if you think we're a bit "touchy" about terrorists.
But some of us get a bit angry when a plane load of innocent families are blown out of the sky.
Or lunatics set bombs off in Central Paris.

One or two here need to grow a brain cell or two.

Hopefully I'll wake up tomorrow and that maggot filled "country" will be reduced to rubble.
Failing that, I'm sure most of the civilised world will relish some payback (which will doubtless come)for the many atrocities, Turdkey has doubtless been behind in recent times.

Holiday in Bodrum this century? I'd rather eat an orangutan's shit. Mixed with shards of glass and sulphur acid. For someone to think we'll all "forget about it" pretty soon is just urinating on the graves of the victims of Turdkey's terrorism support.

Turkey is not the main instigator or cause of the so called "Arab Spring" or the country that laid the foundations and reasons of IS rise. Moreover, Qatar and KSA have exported what you are witnessing today in Europe and Syria for half a century. It's merely a regional power, more importantly, part of the NATO. And everything it does is coordinated and known by the USA. Exemplified by the fact that somehow "year-long coalition airstrikes" produced absolutely no visible effect. In my opinion, those of you who think that this is an isolated Turkey-only incident and in no way connected to NATO are deceived. The bastards, the whole lot of them "Friends of Syria" knew exactly what they were doing from day one, first foolishly trying to present every single domestic and foreign nutjob as "Syrian democratic opposition". When that backfired, they quickly rebranded, those silly groups change names and disposition, alliances and partners like underwear. But after the line is drawn, the scum we witnessed today was vetted by the West, is actual so called "FSA", had and has access to TOW, funding and training. And they are complete, sadistic savages. Funding and training of their less PR-friendly Islamic Front, Army of Islam and Al-Nusra comrades was responsibilty of GCC and Turkey. There were no actual battles and conflicts between "vetted democrats chosen by West" and islamists of various types, IS had no problem absorbing or displacing them when necessary.

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:One question, why didnt theSAR team not have an escort knowing full well they were going into a hot zone?

It's a good question. As is why wasn't the SU escorted? Only 34s should possibly go unescorted. This sort of thing bothers me. This is no time to half-ass anything. Why does it always seem to take a major incident, or multiple ones, for this to sink in? Now I'm pissed off as shit and dreaming of retribution.

Escorting him why? Were Russians going to a bomb run into Ankara? The F16 fired from well within Turkish territory, what would you want to do there? This is wanton murder that Turkey pulled off because it could fire first. Now they can't do this shit anymore for a while. It's a bitter lesson that sees three Russians die for nothing. They'll get their revenge, don't you worry.

Yeah, no kidding. And I agree with you; it was a murderous ambush. But you're telling me the Russian government and military should've trusted the Turks (or just about anyone)? Sorry, sir, but I disagree on that one.

Trust in  Turkey's handler, USA was everything those two crews had. And no amount of Su 30 would have changed that. At best we'd be sitting atop a clusterfuck with two Turkish F16 shot down and one SU-24 as well. The Russians didn't want to escalate that aspect, now they know they should have. Lesson learned; I hope Turkey is ready for some tears.

I'm not at all sure those F-16s would've taken the opportunity to down the Fencer if some 30s were in the air nearby. The Fencer was low-hanging fruit and they plucked it. But, if the 30s downed the 16s in retaliation, then what? What would the Turks do about it, exactly? Or NATO? I think fuck-all, ultimately.

Then you don't know. It's alreay limbo land now, what do you think it would have looked like. Everyone was peacefully doing its thing until the Turkish Af decided that 2015 was the year of living dangerously. If any 30's were then the Turks would have doubled the size of the patrol, tripled, they have been CAPing with 12 F-16's. This was premeditated, they would have done it to some other aircraft, imagine a Crocodile getting shot?

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:One question, why didnt theSAR team not have an escort knowing full well they were going into a hot zone?

It's a good question. As is why wasn't the SU escorted? Only 34s should possibly go unescorted. This sort of thing bothers me. This is no time to half-ass anything. Why does it always seem to take a major incident, or multiple ones, for this to sink in? Now I'm pissed off as shit and dreaming of retribution.

Escorting him why? Were Russians going to a bomb run into Ankara? The F16 fired from well within Turkish territory, what would you want to do there? This is wanton murder that Turkey pulled off because it could fire first. Now they can't do this shit anymore for a while. It's a bitter lesson that sees three Russians die for nothing. They'll get their revenge, don't you worry.

Yeah, no kidding. And I agree with you; it was a murderous ambush. But you're telling me the Russian government and military should've trusted the Turks (or just about anyone)? Sorry, sir, but I disagree on that one.

Trust in  Turkey's handler, USA was everything those two crews had. And no amount of Su 30 would have changed that. At best we'd be sitting atop a clusterfuck with two Turkish F16 shot down and one SU-24 as well. The Russians didn't want to escalate that aspect, now they know they should have. Lesson learned; I hope Turkey is ready for some tears.

I'm not at all sure those F-16s would've taken the opportunity to down the Fencer if some 30s were in the air nearby. The Fencer was low-hanging fruit and they plucked it. But, if the 30s downed the 16s in retaliation, then what? What would the Turks do about it, exactly? Or NATO? I think fuck-all, ultimately.

Then you don't know. It's alreay limbo land now, what do you think it would have looked like. Everyone was peacefully doing its thing until the Turkish Af decided that 2015 was the year of living dangerously. If any 30's were then the Turks would have doubled the size of the patrol, tripled, they have been CAPing with 12 F-16's. This was premeditated, they would have done it to some other aircraft, imagine a Crocodile getting shot?

Bottom line for me is if Russia cannot implement a viable protection for its personnel through some combination of assets then it should not be engaged in what this activity to begin with. They should not be leaving their peoples' naked asses flapping in the breeze. Russia cannot afford to be punked by the Turks. Now they look weaker. Now the example is being set for any akbar that might have started hestating: "look, we killed Russian military and are getting away with it. You can do it too. You can defeat them, and we will help you."

I don't know what it would take. We could bat scenarios around all night. How about find some way to move potent air-defense assets closer to the border, and with the ground units to defend them? Maybe the one base just isn't going to cut it. How about more planes? 30s, 27s, 29s, whatever. I think it's a bad time to start coming across as weak and vulnerable. It will invite more trouble. Go robust or don't go.

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:One question, why didnt theSAR team not have an escort knowing full well they were going into a hot zone?

It's a good question. As is why wasn't the SU escorted? Only 34s should possibly go unescorted. This sort of thing bothers me. This is no time to half-ass anything. Why does it always seem to take a major incident, or multiple ones, for this to sink in? Now I'm pissed off as shit and dreaming of retribution.

Escorting him why? Were Russians going to a bomb run into Ankara? The F16 fired from well within Turkish territory, what would you want to do there? This is wanton murder that Turkey pulled off because it could fire first. Now they can't do this shit anymore for a while. It's a bitter lesson that sees three Russians die for nothing. They'll get their revenge, don't you worry.

Yeah, no kidding. And I agree with you; it was a murderous ambush. But you're telling me the Russian government and military should've trusted the Turks (or just about anyone)? Sorry, sir, but I disagree on that one.

Trust in  Turkey's handler, USA was everything those two crews had. And no amount of Su 30 would have changed that. At best we'd be sitting atop a clusterfuck with two Turkish F16 shot down and one SU-24 as well. The Russians didn't want to escalate that aspect, now they know they should have. Lesson learned; I hope Turkey is ready for some tears.

I'm not at all sure those F-16s would've taken the opportunity to down the Fencer if some 30s were in the air nearby. The Fencer was low-hanging fruit and they plucked it. But, if the 30s downed the 16s in retaliation, then what? What would the Turks do about it, exactly? Or NATO? I think fuck-all, ultimately.

Then you don't know. It's alreay limbo land now, what do you think it would have looked like. Everyone was peacefully doing its thing until the Turkish Af decided that 2015 was the year of living dangerously. If any 30's were then the Turks would have doubled the size of the patrol, tripled, they have been CAPing with 12 F-16's. This was premeditated, they would have done it to some other aircraft, imagine a Crocodile getting shot?

Bottom line for me is if Russia cannot implement a viable protection for its personnel through some combination of assets then it should not be engaged in what this activity to begin with. They should not be leaving their peoples' naked asses flapping in the breeze. Russia cannot afford to be punked by the Turks. Now they look weaker. Now the example is being set for any akbar that might have started hestating: "look, we killed Russian military and are getting away with it. You can do it too. You can defeat them, and we will help you."

I don't know what it would take. We could bat scenarios around all night. How about find some way to move potent air-defense assets closer to the border, and with the ground units to defend them? Maybe the one base just isn't going to cut it. How about more planes? 30s, 27s, 29s, whatever. I think it's a bad time to start coming across as weak and vulnerable. It will invite more trouble. Go robust or don't go.

Listen is like football, you don't win only by not getting scored upon, you also win by scoring one more.

You can't protect something that isn't supposed to be protected given the deconfliction agreement in place. Until now there was no trouble bombing the guys donwtown. This obviously changed the tune, because there was that little pretext, that 1.85km tresspassing. Now chalk that thing out an start bombing again while doubling the hurt. They want to get rough, Russia will get rough. Akhbari what? They had 2 months to do anything about the Russian strikes. Nothing happened. Turkey starts this now, well fine, more cruise missile will hit Turkmen areas, more assets will go to that objective.

Air defences will not change much, yes, you'd flash the turks with S300, then what, they will know Russia wouldn't fire if they don't cross. Now there's something different I have in mind, those pilots who fired the missiles, they will have to hide for some time. Also because the Turks can't come beyond that Syrian border, Full retard on the Turkmens. Again and again and again. They will get out there at some point.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

BKP wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:One question, why didnt theSAR team not have an escort knowing full well they were going into a hot zone?

It's a good question. As is why wasn't the SU escorted? Only 34s should possibly go unescorted. This sort of thing bothers me. This is no time to half-ass anything. Why does it always seem to take a major incident, or multiple ones, for this to sink in? Now I'm pissed off as shit and dreaming of retribution.

Escorting him why? Were Russians going to a bomb run into Ankara? The F16 fired from well within Turkish territory, what would you want to do there? This is wanton murder that Turkey pulled off because it could fire first. Now they can't do this shit anymore for a while. It's a bitter lesson that sees three Russians die for nothing. They'll get their revenge, don't you worry.

Yeah, no kidding. And I agree with you; it was a murderous ambush. But you're telling me the Russian government and military should've trusted the Turks (or just about anyone)? Sorry, sir, but I disagree on that one.

Trust in  Turkey's handler, USA was everything those two crews had. And no amount of Su 30 would have changed that. At best we'd be sitting atop a clusterfuck with two Turkish F16 shot down and one SU-24 as well. The Russians didn't want to escalate that aspect, now they know they should have. Lesson learned; I hope Turkey is ready for some tears.

I'm not at all sure those F-16s would've taken the opportunity to down the Fencer if some 30s were in the air nearby. The Fencer was low-hanging fruit and they plucked it. But, if the 30s downed the 16s in retaliation, then what? What would the Turks do about it, exactly? Or NATO? I think fuck-all, ultimately.

Then you don't know. It's alreay limbo land now, what do you think it would have looked like. Everyone was peacefully doing its thing until the Turkish Af decided that 2015 was the year of living dangerously. If any 30's were then the Turks would have doubled the size of the patrol, tripled, they have been CAPing with 12 F-16's. This was premeditated, they would have done it to some other aircraft, imagine a Crocodile getting shot?

Bottom line for me is if Russia cannot implement a viable protection for its personnel through some combination of assets then it should not be engaged in what this activity to begin with. They should not be leaving their peoples' naked asses flapping in the breeze. Russia cannot afford to be punked by the Turks. Now they look weaker. Now the example is being set for any akbar that might have started hestating: "look, we killed Russian military and are getting away with it. You can do it too. You can defeat them, and we will help you."

I don't know what it would take. We could bat scenarios around all night. How about find some way to move potent air-defense assets closer to the border, and with the ground units to defend them? Maybe the one base just isn't going to cut it. How about more planes? 30s, 27s, 29s, whatever. I think it's a bad time to start coming across as weak and vulnerable. It will invite more trouble. Go robust or don't go.

Listen is like football, you don't win only by not getting scored upon, you also win by scoring one more.

You can't protect something that isn't supposed to be protected given the deconfliction agreement in place. Until now there was no trouble bombing the guys donwtown. This obviously changed the tune, because there was that little pretext, that 1.85km tresspassing. Now chalk that thing out an start bombing again while doubling the hurt. They want to get rough, Russia will get rough. Akhbari what? They had 2 months to do anything about the Russian strikes. Nothing happened. Turkey starts this now, well fine, more cruise missile will hit Turkmen areas, more assets will go to that objective.

Air defences will not change much, yes, you'd flash the turks with S300, then what, they will know Russia wouldn't fire if they don't cross. Now there's something different I have in mind, those pilots who fired the missiles, they will have to hide for some time. Also because the Turks can't come beyond that Syrian border, Full retard on the Turkmens. Again and again and again. They will get out there at some point.

I pretty much agree with what you're saying as a way to go forward from this point. But I still think that the Turks should have in no way been trusted to begin with. Sure, sign the "agreement." Smile and shake their hand. But, you still send the escorts with the tactical bombers. If they start sending up a dozen 16s, then they're clearly up to something. Back off and find another way. Do not be cavalier with the lives of trained personnel. Yes, some may still die, but let it not seem like it's the result of careless planning. I am worked up. This pissed me the f*ck off.

BKP, you're talking preemptive protection... Do you know just how far that road goes?

Certain things you take for granted, like a supposedly "civilised" country acting civilised. This stuff has happened all throughout history, but it has almost always been to the detriment of the perpetrator. Turkey has just thrown away any military trust they have with almost any nation, let alone diplomatic. These actions take years to live down... In terms of Russia it'll likely be 20-30 odd years before any joint military exercise is ever conducted again. They've screwed themselves... Badly.

^^

I also tend to agree with the above. Its been clear all along despite the so called deconfliction agreement that turkey is a loose cannon, and not to be trusted in any way shape or form. Especially in light of the aggressive noises that have been coming out of turkey and the butthurt its leaders have about being found out in syria and having its plans thwarted.

I almost wonder if the russians were purposefully reckless, not to get their men killed, but to draw turkey out and see what they would do when offered an easy bait.

OminousSpudd wrote:BKP, you're talking preemptive protection... Do you know just how far that road goes?

Certain things you take for granted, like a supposedly "civilised" country acting civilised. This stuff has happened all throughout history, but it has almost always been to the detriment of the perpetrator. Turkey has just thrown away any military trust they have with almost any nation, let alone diplomatic. These actions take years to live down... In terms of Russia it'll likely be 20-30 odd years before any joint military exercise is ever conducted again. They've screwed themselves... Badly.

I agree with this too. I've read USA politicians saying before this to kick Turkey out of NATO.

& as for the group affiliated with Turkey and CIA, that shot, at the least, the Russian pilots, imho, the USA certainly can't trust that group, nor any other anti-Assad "rebel" group in Syria. what a you-know-what....that starts with the word c.
Imho it's a Sunni vs Shia war, and the USA has to know, there is no way they can make them stop fighting...not with some peace process, no matter what the suits in Wash. D.C. say... as far as I understand it...

Shouldn't this be rather taken as NATO shooting down a Russian plane and killing its personal? As such, Russia has the righteousness to strike back against NATO countries and its personal?

Also, what do you think Russia should do? Escalate and strike one of their air force bases maybe? That would be quite direct and decisive, but not that grand and lasting tho i think.