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91 posters

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Mike E
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    • Post n°301

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    Post  Mike E Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:22 am

    xeno wrote:Of course it is much more better than Chinese one, actually it is the best looking one in this class(127mm and 130mm) in the world.
    As for "function over form" debate, yes, generally I agree, however we are talking about Russian military equipment, so in this case, I want both function and form.

    You want it, they don't, it's as simple as that. However, I will say, Russian military equipment always seems to be the best looking bias rapid. The Gorshkov is no exception to my eyes, and a radar cover doesn't change that.

    Anyway... To the next Gorshkov!
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    Post  xeno Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:38 am

    Actually they do, that is why so many good and beautiful Russian airplanes, warships and vehicles in the world.
    Ok let's stop this debate...
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    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:39 am

    I feel what Xeno is saying, it is a phenomenal looking ship, and weird bars on the Radars ruin perfection- I think they are not permanent though, the rear ones don't have them for one.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:28 am

    At first sight several aircraft look "ugly"... meaning different or strange, but when the difference is explained and the differences make logical sense then there is beauty in difference too.

    the Su-25 does not look much like other aircraft of its generation, but there are sound sensible reasons for this, just as there are sensible reasons for the Mi-28N to look the way it does.

    Having looked at a sleek Su-27 or Ka-62 the Su-25 and Mi-28N might not be the most appealing designs, but they have a specific function that makes their shapes suitable and functional.

    For instance the thimble antenna on the nose of the Mi-28 series is the 35GHz control antenna for command guided missiles like Shturm and Ataka.

    They could have made it without such an antenna but that would prevent the aircraft from using a very cheap mass produced missile that is currently extensively used in Russia.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:08 am

    xeno wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Why do looks even matter? It is a radar system for crying out loud... The only important aspect of its physical design is that it doesn't produce a large cross section.

    I need it to be beautiful.
    I can tolerate PESA, I can wait for 20385 with double-band AESA...

    You still haven't told us why you think they are PESAs.

    You have made that assertion before on this thread, and I am not aware of you offering any reason for what you were saying that time either.
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    Post  xeno Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:15 pm

    Yury Guskov said so although he doesn't work for A-A.
    He told KDR(Kanwa Defense Review) journalist the Phased Array Radar on the new 4000 ton frigate of Russian navy is "Passive" in a short interview in Saint Petersburg about 3 years ago, so he promoted Bagira-M designed by Phazontron as the first generation AESA for Russian navy.
    I believe the new 4000 ton frigate he mentioned is 22350 instead of 11356 whose Fregat radar was invented 20 years ago.
    I choose to believe what I read on that magazine considering A-A hasn't much AESA designing experience, the land version S-350 uses a PESA radar to guide 9M96 missiles, Poliment project was started long time ago and even today mass producing small and light TR unit in Russia is very questionable (radar antenna on 22350 is quite small).
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:44 pm

    xeno wrote:Yury Guskov said so although he doesn't work for A-A.
    He told KDR(Kanwa Defense Review) journalist the Phased Array Radar on the new 4000 ton frigate of Russian navy is "Passive" in a short interview in Saint Petersburg about 3 years ago, so he promoted Bagira-M designed by Phazontron as the first generation AESA for Russian navy.
    I believe the new 4000 ton frigate he mentioned is 22350 instead of 11356 whose Fregat radar was invented 20 years ago.
    I choose to believe what I read on that magazine considering A-A hasn't much AESA designing experience, the land version S-350 uses a PESA radar to guide 9M96 missiles, Poliment project was started long time ago and even today mass producing small and light TR unit in Russia is very questionable (radar antenna on 22350 is quite small).

    Can you send us a link to the Guskov's interview?
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    Post  xeno Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:30 am

    This interview is not available on the internet.
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    • Post n°309

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    Post  sepheronx Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:21 am

    Russia has years of experience with AESA radar, and T/R module mass production has now been available for quite a few years. If that article is 3 years old, it may make sense as T/R module production in Russia started roughly 2007. But it wouldn't make much sense now.
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    • Post n°310

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    Post  Austin Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:09 am

    What CIWS system does Gorshkov has ?
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    Post  zg18 Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:34 pm

    Austin wrote:What CIWS system does Gorshkov has ?

    Palash CIWS
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    Post  Viktor Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:25 pm

    Admiral Golovko rollout russia

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 13 U5JnLf9
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:14 am

    I am not saying Redut-Poliment is an "AESA", but

    xeno wrote:Yury Guskov said so although he doesn't work for A-A. He told KDR(Kanwa Defense Review) journalist the Phased Array Radar on the new 4000 ton frigate of Russian navy is "Passive" in a short interview in Saint Petersburg about 3 years ago

    Which radar type?

    Proekt 22350 has at least three different types of 3D ESA: the "Furke" variant, the Redut-Poliment, and the Puma variant. The Puma variant's ESA is known to be an "AESA".


    xeno wrote:... and even today mass producing small and light TR unit in Russia is very questionable ...

    That's not correct; sorry, don't have time to elaborate.


    xeno wrote:... the land version S-350 uses a PESA radar to guide 9M96 missiles ...

    Vityaz' has many different variants; sorry, don't have time to elaborate.


    xeno wrote:... the land version S-350 uses a PESA radar to guide 9M96 missiles ...

    The Russian naval and land-based "variants" of their surface-to-air missiles almost always have different fire control systems.

    Example:

    Tor—land-based, with "AESA" radar.

    Kynzhal—naval, with "PESA" reflectoarray.


    xeno wrote:Yury Guskov said so ...

    Russian company executives are very notorious about misinformation/disinformation they give about their "competitors" products.

    xeno wrote:Yury Guskov said so ...

    Since when say-so was of significance. There are places that say the contrary.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:47 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

    The Russian naval and land-based "variants" of their surface-to-air missiles almost always have different fire control systems.

    Example:

    Tor—land-based, with "AESA" radar.

    Kynzhal—naval, with "PESA" reflectoarray.

    Mind to explain why ? I'm looking for a reason why early S-300F with 5V55RM missiles use reflective array antenna (the 3R41 Volna) Instead of similar type as 5N63 ?


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    Post  TR1 Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:00 pm

    Some evidence to Tor or Puma radar being AESA please?
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:47 pm

    TR1 wrote:Some evidence to Tor or Puma radar being AESA please?

    Sure, there are plenty of evidence of different type, but the most convenient ones are the following.

    With respect to Tor's, there is a video on YouTube that graphically details the internals of Tor's radar, categorically showing that the radar is an "AESA". I have seen the video but haven't been able to find it recently. I am sure you internet-savvy people would have no difficulty finding it, especially that the clip was probably in the Russian language.

    With respect to Puma, there was/is an article in the Military Parade that described Puma, in some detail, as an AESA (not just a mention). The article is from about ten years ago.

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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:53 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

    The Russian naval and land-based "variants" of their surface-to-air missiles almost always have different fire control systems.

    Example:

    Tor—land-based, with "AESA" radar.

    Kynzhal—naval, with "PESA" reflectoarray.
    Mind to explain why ? I'm looking for a reason why early S-300F with 5V55RM missiles use reflective array antenna (the 3R41 Volna) Instead of similar type as 5N63 ?

    I can only guess. However, I would give my response tonight (my local time), because I have to grab some breakfast now and rush to work.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:30 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

    I can only guess. However, I would give my response tonight (my local time), because I have to grab some breakfast now and rush to work.

    Thanks.

    Anyway about Tor.. Which TOR have AESA ? The latest TOR M2 or Original Tor and M1 Because according to this

    _Corey,_L.E._--_[IEEE_International_Symposium_on_Phased_Array_Systems_and_Technology_-_Boston,_MA,_USA_(15-18_Oct._1996)]_Proceedings_of_Intern.pdf]A Survey of Russian Low Cost Phased Array

    TOR is not AESA, but PESA with backplane feed.
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    Post  George1 Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:52 pm

    Admiral Gorshkov started factory trials
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:18 am

    The Russian naval and land-based "variants" of their surface-to-air missiles almost always have different fire control systems.

    Example:

    Tor—land-based, with "AESA" radar.

    Kynzhal—naval, with "PESA" reflectoarray.

    Land based systems probably need better ESM capabilities, whereas naval systems will more likely deal with incoming munitions rather than ECM aircraft type threats.

    Different conditions also make different solutions more suitable in terms of cost and of course things like mobility... a system on a ship is practically similar to a fixed system which will have arcs to protect.
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    Post  zg18 Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:19 pm

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 13 B3EgiY2CQAAGnR8
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    Post  TheArmenian Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:29 am

    This frigate has the beautiful lines of a cruiser.
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    Post  Viktor Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:37 pm

    I think that now we can close one of the biggest mysteries about 22350 Very Happy  russia  russia

    So we can safely conclude that 22350 carries 112 9M96 class missiles or 4 times more 9M100 or 28 48N6 Very Happy Very Happy





    Multi-ship missile launcher vertical launch



    The launcher is rigidly fixed between the upper and lower decks of the ship. In an embodiment, each protective cover closes simultaneously four containers

    meaning 28 protective covers 22350 has (first ones only but there are still empty spaces laying around Very Happy ) accomodates 28 x 4 = 112 9M96 missiles or

    28 x 4 x 4 = 448 9M96 missiles Very Happy



    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 13 29zc3f9

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 13 2d7f39t

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 13 Kb3whk

    and there are still enough space by the Calibr vertical launchers and at the end by the exhaust

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov - Page 13 300grnn


    Last edited by Viktor on Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  TR1 Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:02 pm

    There is no mystery:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGkE_5zOenY

    Look at those cells. 22350 has identically sized ones. How are you going to fit 4 of those 9M96 tubes in one cell?

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    Post  Mike E Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:41 pm

    That has no value TR1. A simple video (unscientific at that) doesn't mean a thing to pictures of documents etc.
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