Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

Isos wrote:...............

Gorshkov is a small frigate compare to the others in the world, even if it's better armed. I think Gorshkov was meant to replace both of them by standardization but they have more experience now so they can build bigger.

I don't read Russian, does it says something about the weapons on board ? Are they planning to put bigger anti air missiles (true S-400) or keep the same (S-350) but with more of them ?

Don't know Russian either but I think they mentioned ''more armament'' not different. Someone else might clarify.

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:...............

Gorshkov is a small frigate compare to the others in the world, even if it's better armed. I think Gorshkov was meant to replace both of them by standardization but they have more experience now so they can build bigger.

I don't read Russian, does it says something about the weapons on board ? Are they planning to put bigger anti air missiles (true S-400) or keep the same (S-350) but with more of them ?

Don't know Russian either but I think they mentioned ''more armament'' not different. Someone else might clarify.

56/64 VLS? Like Type 054C or Type 054D? That would be a proper destroyer.

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:...............

Gorshkov is a small frigate compare to the others in the world, even if it's better armed. I think Gorshkov was meant to replace both of them by standardization but they have more experience now so they can build bigger.

I don't read Russian, does it says something about the weapons on board ? Are they planning to put bigger anti air missiles (true S-400) or keep the same (S-350) but with more of them ?

Don't know Russian either but I think they mentioned ''more armament'' not different. Someone else might clarify.

Just as i had hoped for, an improved Gorshkov with more fire power, this improved one will probably have that Pyramid super-structure that we saw a while back, at least one more set of UKSKs (obviously) and 1 or 2 more CIWS (AK-630s), the rest would be internal improvements.

Advanced frigate Admiral Gorshkov's trials underway in Russia

The Russian Navy is expected to receive six frigates of this type by 2025

MOSCOW, April 20. /TASS/. The trials of all the assemblies of Russia’s Project 22350 lead frigate Admiral Gorshkov are proceeding on schedule and are due to be completed in July, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Thursday.

"The works are not being delayed and are proceeding according to plan. Our plan is due to be completed in July this year. Now the trials of all the assemblies are underway, including air defense systems deployed on this ship. These are Poliment-Redut complexes," the vice-premier said.

The trials of the Admiral Gorshkov are complex as it is necessary to check the work of several dozen advanced systems at a time, including radio-electronics, artillery armament, various shipborne assemblies and air defense systems, the vice-premier said.

"Problems arise as to how to arrange the trials so that the test of one system does not impede the test of another complex," Rogozin said.

The vice-premier added that the frigate’s trials were proceeding under his personal control on the Russian president’s instruction.

Deputy Prime Minister Rogozin oversees the work of the defense sector in the Russian government. The frigate Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov is the Project 22350 lead warship. The frigate has been designed by the Severnoye Design Bureau. The Project 22350 frigate Admiral Gorshkov was laid down in early 2006 and put afloat in the autumn of 2010. The warship started undergoing trials in November 2014. The final stage of the frigate’s state trials started on March 20, 2017.

Project 22350 warships displace 4,500 tonnes and can develop a speed of 29 knots. They are specifically armed with Oniks and Kalibr cruise missiles and Poliment-Redut antiaircraft missile systems. Overall, the Russian Navy is expected to receive six frigates of this type by 2025.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/942334

Only 6 by 2025!? They are supposed to get 4 by 2020, right? That is actually understandable, but the pace is not going to pick up at all? They can't commission a single light destroyer a year by the 2020s? 2 new major surface combatants in 5 years? Must be the worst-case scenario. Let's say that Russia will spend "only" 3% of the GDP per year on the military going forward... They should still be able to afford more. What's going to happen with Grigorovich after 2020? A new frigate class?

Kimppis wrote:Only 6 by 2025!? They are supposed to get 4 by 2020, right? That is actually understandable, but the pace is not going to pick up at all? They can't commission a single light destroyer a year by the 2020s? 2 new major surface combatants in 5 years? Must be the worst-case scenario. Let's say that Russia will spend "only" 3% of the GDP per year on the military going forward... They should still be able to afford more. What's going to happen with Grigorovich after 2020? A new frigate class?  

Don't know, they are really dragging their asses on this. Refusal to put more than one shipyard on the project is idiotic. Looks to me that someone is chasing that trademark related royalties hence the project being stuck with one shipyard that also happens to be most incompetent one in the whole world.

As for after 2020 they will probably tweak existing platform the same way they tweaked Steregushi class into Drski class.

That is if they manage to go that long without any extra f*ckups.

Trademark royalties? Wow...

I was just doing the math and I realized that in the... "conservative" scenario they would have 2 Kirovs, 3 Slavas and 6 Gorshkovs by 2025. That wouldn't be terrible overall, but come on, they gotta finish atleast 8. Really the main issue, IMO, is that they need more frigates, like the Grigorovich-class, not as heavily armed and cheaper than the Gorshkov-class... Get to it ASAP and commission 2 Grigorovich-sized vessels per year... Too much to ask, I guess? Well, then 1.5 per year.

PapaDragon wrote:

Kimppis wrote:Only 6 by 2025!? They are supposed to get 4 by 2020, right? That is actually understandable, but the pace is not going to pick up at all? They can't commission a single light destroyer a year by the 2020s? 2 new major surface combatants in 5 years? Must be the worst-case scenario. Let's say that Russia will spend "only" 3% of the GDP per year on the military going forward... They should still be able to afford more. What's going to happen with Grigorovich after 2020? A new frigate class?  

Don't know, they are really dragging their asses on this. Refusal to put more than one shipyard on the project is idiotic. Looks to me that someone is chasing that trademark related royalties hence the project being stuck with one shipyard that also happens to be most incompetent one in the whole world.

As for after 2020 they will probably tweak existing platform the same way they tweaked Steregushi class into Drski class.

That is if they manage to go that long without any extra f*ckups.

Jesus, WTF is going on, the Gorshkov is probly the best frigate that Russia's got, this situation irks me to no end.

Anyway at least the situation with the corvettes isn't as bad, although there is still the engine issue and the new Derzky lack of UKSKs.
Overall, i think the Corvettes can compensate till the Frigates get there sh#t together.

Kimppis wrote:Trademark royalties? Wow...

I was just doing the math and I realized that in the... "conservative" scenario they would have 2 Kirovs, 3 Slavas and 6 Gorshkovs by 2025. That wouldn't be terrible overall, but come on, they gotta finish atleast 8. Really the main issue, IMO, is that they need more frigates, like the Grigorovich-class, not as heavily armed and cheaper than the Gorshkov-class... Get to it ASAP and commission 2 Grigorovich-sized vessels per year... Too much to ask, I guess? Well, then 1.5 per year.

Uuhm, you might be wrong there, as soon as the Admiral Nakhimov is relaunched the Pyotr Velikiy will enter modernization, so we'll probly have only 1 Kirov by that time, unless that shipyard works really fast on the second one.

Unlikely, the engine issue with Ukraine has made the Grigorovich-class unfeasible for Russia, the only alternative i can think of is the Gepard-class modified with UKSKs of course, although i am not 100% whether the engine issue affects them or not.

And honestly even those 6 Gorshkovs look dicey.

Kimppis wrote:Only 6 by 2025!? They are supposed to get 4 by 2020, right? That is actually understandable, but the pace is not going to pick up at all? They can't commission a single light destroyer a year by the 2020s? 2 new major surface combatants in 5 years? Must be the worst-case scenario. Let's say that Russia will spend "only" 3% of the GDP per year on the military going forward... They should still be able to afford more. What's going to happen with Grigorovich after 2020? A new frigate class?  

6 by 2025 is not consistent with the Izvestia article http://izvestia.ru/news/668261 which states at least 15x 22350 and 22350M to "form the basis of Arctic groups".  

There are 4x 22350s in various stages, with Golovko & Isakov yet to be floated out. All 4 are ostensibly for the northern fleet.  The most likely explanation is that the RuN will commit to a further 2 units to be delivered before 2025, while simultaneously starting the 22350Ms.

In any case, Russia is undertaking a HUGE rearmament drive across the board, and the Navy is always going to be 3rd priority behind the Army & Air Forces.  I mean, look at the other big-ticket programs before you start to squeal about how many frigates Russia "should" be able to build...

Sarmat development, Bulava-M, Yars deployments, Barguzhin rail-based system, Voronezh strategic defense radar network...
Borei SSBNs, Yasen SSNs, Schuka-B & Antei modernisations, Varshavyanka SS, next-gen Huskie & Kalina development...
Tu-160M restart, PAK-DA, Tu-160/Tu-22M/Tu-95 modernisations, Kh-102 deployment, PAK FA full scale production, MiG-35, Su-30/35 deployments, MiG-31 successor...
Nudol & S-500 development, S-400 deployments, S-300 modernisations, TOR/Pantsir/BUK developments....
Armata & Kurganets & Boomerang development and mass production, Ratnik program, robotic vehicles...
Kuznetsov & Kirov & Slava modernisations, rebuilding of small vessel & patrol fleets, all-new family of standardised UKSK-compatible munitions, build-up (from near scratch) of a maritime gas-turbine propulsion industry...

yeah...  none of the feckless HATOstani nations have anything to match this great example of retooling for a 1st class World Power military, yet people want to whine piteously because their expectations are not being met about the number of shiny new frigates available for their FB pages?...

Rather than obsessing about Russia hasn't done, try focusing on what they have done. Our Western MSM presstitutes do their best to encourage the viewpoint that all is well with the US-run globalist Empire, but the truth is that the Masters of the Universe are squirming and VERY uncomfortable with the growing hard power of both Russia and China. The US may have a vast Navy, but it's mostly useless against the emerging vision of a unified Eurasia that is undoubtedly coalescing around a resurgent China and a Russia that wants a full strategic partnership against a common implacable enemy. The priority is to ensure a solid and reliable strategic deterrent to prevent any possibility of a Yankistani nuclear first strike, and to have a solid defence-oriented conventional force that can stop any conceivable land invasion. Couple this with a diversified economy and solid integration with other Eurasian powers, and Russias hard power is potentially the equal of anything the Yanks can project.

The war mongers in Morodor on the Potomac KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE, and they seek to prevent this by diverting Russia from what is important by distracting her with peripheral nuisances like geo-political gambits (such as Syria & Libya) and outright spiteful nastiness (like the smearing of Sochi, WADA accusations, banning the para-Olympic teams, threatening the World Cup, and endless disparaging of all things Russian in the establish-owned MSM echo chamber), and while setting up long-term existenial threats to Russias future (like the ongoing nazification of Ukropistan, and encouragement of Sunni wahabbi extremism to threaten Russias Islamic underbelly).

Compared to all this, a few less Gorshkovs than expected isn't really such a big deal....

As long as Gorshkov class is stuck in just one shipyard I will not be able to take this entire model seriously.

I mean just look at Rubin class patrol ships and Karakurt missile boats.

Even Steregushi/Drski corvettes are reaching decent pace even though they had choppy start.

All are built in two shipyards. Until Gorshkovs follow suit they will remain just a sideshow.

PapaDragon wrote:
As long as Gorshkov class is stuck in just one shipyard I will not be able to take this entire model seriously.

I mean just look at Rubin class patrol ships and Karakurt missile boats.

Even Steregushi/Drski corvettes are reaching decent pace even though they had choppy start.

All are built in two shipyards. Until Gorshkovs follow suit they will remain just a sideshow.

I think you're being too hard on Severnaya Verf...  admittedly they are not covering themselves in glory, but the 22350 is the first new-design mid-size combatant that Russia has attempted in the post-Soviet period, and it is loaded with all new technology rather than exisitng Soviet legacy.  R&D and systems commissioning was always going to be a lengthy affair in order to build a well integrated & functional warship that could perform to the high standards that are required, and now even more challenging due to the Ukropistani gas turbine debacle...

Seriously, you want to go full tilt on building 22350 hulls when they will simply take up space on the ways while they wait for engines?  No, thats pointless.  Finish engine development, commission the lead vessel to FULLY meet ALL specifications, then repeat on 1-2 units more, and THEN commit other yards to serial construction.  In the meantime, divert funds elsewhere to other worthwhile projects, until the 22350 program is ready to accelerate and absorb the funds effectively.

Couple of pics via Balancers'


Apparently the anti-sub Kalibr

Obviously defensive lasers



Seriously though, they are some kind of test gear, seen on other ships during missile tests eg

Couple of vids of Gorshkov moving in St Petersberg via Balancer forums



And here the fanblades from when the engine broke way back & was replaced with Kasatonov engine

hoom wrote:.......

And here the fanblades from when the engine broke way back & was replaced with Kasatonov engine

Legendary Ukrainian quality, Russia was right to depend on their technology.

How will they ever survive without it???

PapaDragon wrote:

hoom wrote:.......

And here the fanblades from when the engine broke way back & was replaced with Kasatonov engine

Legendary Ukrainian quality, Russia was right to depend on their technology.

How will they ever survive without it???

Ukropi engineering with its world-famous, near legendary quality. Just look at those wonderfully consistant fracture patterns...

Well I don't know what the final determination of cause was (I recall mention of something being mounted backwards) but that engine was designed with Russian input, possibly outright designed in Russia (?) which is why Saturn has been able to quickly step up to the plate with a domestic version.
USSR was right to distribute its industry, couldn't have expected this post-Soviet fugue.