Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

Big_Gazza wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:Nukes are a bluff that no one is suppose to be stupid enough to call, yet considering how utterly foolish Western leaders have become, i fear it's only a matter of time before someone is stupid enough to actually call this bluff, and the question is will Russia do it, or will they simply accept there losses and compromise, since they also don't want to cease to exist.

You forget that while nuclear escalation is a real concern, if Russia were faced with a foreign invasion that they couldn't repel with conventional arms, they could use a small number of nukes against enemy naval forces and this would not necessarily lead to a full nuclear exchange.  HATOstani warmongers will be unable to retaliate in kind, as Russia doesn't have similar naval assets.  Would HATO war planners attack land bases knowing Russia would respond with reciprocal attacks?  Would they escalate to hit cities knowing Russia would hit theirs?

If Russia makes a few token attacks against purely military targets in distant locations that didn't impinge on EU or US landmasses, the option to escalate is much reduced.

Ugh, i don't know, considering Western ego alone, the loss of some base may be considered similar to the loss of a Carrier, either way i am just tired of people using the nukes as an excuse the somewhat lackluster conventional capabilities, when the Navy's on it's own it has to rely on itself, not on nukes from home.

Let's hope such escalations don't even happen.

AlfaT8 wrote: considering Western ego alone, the loss of some base may be considered similar to the loss of a Carrier

Wait would the americans be so stupid as to lose their entire country and every country in nato if Russia were to sink a few of their carriers?

GarryB wrote:Well all these butthurt fanbois will have to delay their Russias navy is the best crusade for another summer campaign... who gives a fuck.

Get over it.

The Russian navy is growing and getting better, if you want to make yourselves look like whiny little girls moaning because it is not to your satisfaction in terms of speed go right ahead and get your panties in a bunch.

Name one NATO country that can do in Syria what Russian Corvettes did in Syria... any country for that matter... but somehow because they don't pump out useless weakly armed ships like the chinese or South Koreans they are somehow incompetent... blah blah blah.

Sejong the Great is "weakly armed"?

KomissarBojanchev wrote:MUH CORVETTES MUH CORVETTES. If it takes 20 years to commission 1 frigate and there are no destroyers left you'll still derail the point by mentioning corvettes. Russia has no aircraft carrier replacement. MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!!! Northern and Pacific fleets have no destroyers left? MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!

Give me a break.

20 years for 1 frigate?  Dafuq are you talking about?  Grow up kid and stop peeing your pants, cease the childish hysteria, and we might start to take you seriously.

The-thing-next-door wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote: considering Western ego alone, the loss of some base may be considered similar to the loss of a Carrier

Wait would the americans be so stupid as to lose their entire country and every country in nato if Russia were to sink a few of their carriers?

Yea, except they don't need to use nukes, they have more then enough conventional assets.

Big_Gazza wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:MUH CORVETTES MUH CORVETTES. If it takes 20 years to commission 1 frigate and there are no destroyers left you'll still derail the point by mentioning corvettes. Russia has no aircraft carrier replacement. MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!!! Northern and Pacific fleets have no destroyers left? MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!

Give me a break.

20 years for 1 frigate?  Dafuq are you talking about?  Grow up kid and stop peeing your pants, cease the childish hysteria, and we might start to take you seriously.

It was an exagerration, but the point still stands that if gorshkov commisioning continues at this rate, once the Krivaks and Udaloys are decomissioned there will be almost nothing to replace them with.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:MUH CORVETTES MUH CORVETTES. If it takes 20 years to commission 1 frigate and there are no destroyers left you'll still derail the point by mentioning corvettes. Russia has no aircraft carrier replacement. MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!!! Northern and Pacific fleets have no destroyers left? MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!

Give me a break.

20 years for 1 frigate?  Dafuq are you talking about?  Grow up kid and stop peeing your pants, cease the childish hysteria, and we might start to take you seriously.

It was an exagerration, but the point still stands that if gorshkov commisioning continues at this rate, once the Krivaks and Udaloys are decomissioned there will be almost nothing to replace them with.

Give me strength....

OK, look at it this way.  If the Gorshkov was a LCS, it would have been in service for 3 years already.  It wouldn't have been tested, it would have systems that weren't operating as specified, and would be subject to below-par performance on some systems and would be in and out of the yard to receives fixes and patches, but it would of been operational... sort of...  enough for the manufacturer to get paid and then keep extracting more funds for each tweak and corrective action....  cuz thats how the US for-profit MIC works.

Russia doesn't work the same.  Ruskie ship-builders are expected to deliver what they promised, and the military doesn't accept something until its ready and passes all necessary state-witnessed testing.  Gorshkov has issues with Poliment-Redut long range missiles?  Russian military says "Fix it" or we don't accept.

Gorshkov is the first of her line with all new equipment, weapons & sensors, and her build has been protracted due to a general lack of fund and priority (subs come first).  Engine issues have caused a 4-year hiatus for the 4-vessel batch and the Navy has shifted priority.  The Navy wants the bugs fixed before she is accepted, and they are prepared to wait as there is no real driver to the schedule (unlike SSBNs/SSNs).   Severnaya needs to debug the design & build issues and fix them to avoid the same on the Kasanatov.

I'd say the Gorshkov has actually been combat ready for the last 2 years, but due process must be observed.

BTW there are only 4x Krivaks in Russian service (and don't appear to be receiving upgrades), while the Udaloys will be upgraded with UKSK and Uran launchers. I don't worry about them not being replaced.

all new equipment, weapons & sensors,

Palash is already tested
UKSK is already tested
Furke is already tested
Zarya is operational
A-130 is already fixed quickly and is a development of the old AK-130

The only all new weapon exclusive to the Gorshkov for now is redut.

I'd say the Gorshkov has actually been combat ready for the last 2 years, but due process must be observed.

At least thats true. Then they should've sent it to launch cruise missiles in syria.

while the Udaloys will be upgraded with UKSK and Uran launchers. I don't worry about them not being replaced.

Only the Shaposhnikov as far as we know and there are no known plans to upgrade any more.

Palash is already tested
UKSK is already tested
Furke is already tested
Zarya is operational
A-130 is already fixed quickly and is a development of the old AK-130

The only all new weapon exclusive to the Gorshkov for now is redut.

Yes, and when the Gorshkov was first laid down, all of these systems were new.  Fitting-out and integrating all of these new systems necessitated a lengthy program.  Redut is the last piece and has dragged on because of issues with the 120km missile version.

Then they should've sent it to launch cruise missiles in syria.

Contractually and legally near-impossible, and would probably need a Presidential decree. Why send the Gorshkov and delay her shakedown/troubleshooting when the Pr 11356 frigates and Pr 636 SSKs are available?

while the Udaloys will be upgraded with UKSK and Uran launchers. I don't worry about them not being replaced.

Only the Shaposhnikov as far as we know and there are no known plans to upgrade any more.

AFAIK it was planned that a total of 5 Udaloys would be modernised.  Best source I have right now is Navy to modernise five Udaloys by 2022

Five Project 1155 large anti-submarine warfare (ASW) destroyers (Udaloy-class) will be upgraded and modernized by 2022 as their radio-electronic warfare and life support systems are to be overhauled, Russian Navy spokesman Igor Dygalo told reporters.

"By 2022 five big antisubmarine warships of project 1155 of the Northern and Pacific fleets will be refurbished and modernized at shipyards in the North and the Far East," he said. Dygalo said the ships "will undergo a major overhaul of their life support and radio-electronic warfare systems."

In the summer of 2015 Admiral Viktor Chirkov who was Russian Navy commander-in-chief at the time said the big antisubmarine ships of project 1155 were included in the Navy modernization program and will receive modern missile complexes. He added the first warship will be rearmed with Onix and Caliber missiles in 2017. In 2016 Vice President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation for military construction Igor Ponomarev told TASS the shipyards have not received full tactical and technical assignments and the work "has not been launched in full volume".

Subsequently, Shaposhnikov to receive Kalibres details the refit of the 1st upgraded unit and states:

In January, it was reported that five Project 1155 large ASW ships of the Northern and Pacific fleets would be repaired and upgraded at the shipbuilding enterprises of North and Far East through 2022. A huge amount of work to update life support systems and radio-technical equipment of the ships will be fulfilled.

Upgrading the Udaloys makes a lot of sense and will hugely enhance their combat capability for ASW and anti-surface, though lack of a potent medium range SAM will prevent them from being a true multi-purpose destroyer.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Palash is already tested
UKSK is already tested
Furke is already tested
Zarya is operational
A-130 is already fixed quickly and is a development of the old AK-130

The only all new weapon exclusive to the Gorshkov for now is redut.

Yes, and when the Gorshkov was first laid down, all of these systems were new.  Fitting-out and integrating all of these new systems necessitated a lengthy program.  Redut is the last piece and has dragged on because of issues with the 120km missile version.

Then they should've sent it to launch cruise missiles in syria.

Contractually and legally near-impossible, and would probably need a Presidential decree. Why send the Gorshkov and delay her shakedown/troubleshooting when the Pr 11356 frigates and Pr 636 SSKs are available?

while the Udaloys will be upgraded with UKSK and Uran launchers. I don't worry about them not being replaced.

Only the Shaposhnikov as far as we know and there are no known plans to upgrade any more.

AFAIK it was planned that a total of 5 Udaloys would be modernised.  Best source I have right now is Navy to modernise five Udaloys by 2022

Five Project 1155 large anti-submarine warfare (ASW) destroyers (Udaloy-class) will be upgraded and modernized by 2022 as their radio-electronic warfare and life support systems are to be overhauled, Russian Navy spokesman Igor Dygalo told reporters.

"By 2022 five big antisubmarine warships of project 1155 of the Northern and Pacific fleets will be refurbished and modernized at shipyards in the North and the Far East," he said. Dygalo said the ships "will undergo a major overhaul of their life support and radio-electronic warfare systems."

In the summer of 2015 Admiral Viktor Chirkov who was Russian Navy commander-in-chief at the time said the big antisubmarine ships of project 1155 were included in the Navy modernization program and will receive modern missile complexes. He added the first warship will be rearmed with Onix and Caliber missiles in 2017. In 2016 Vice President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation for military construction Igor Ponomarev told TASS the shipyards have not received full tactical and technical assignments and the work "has not been launched in full volume".

Subsequently, Shaposhnikov to receive Kalibres details the refit of the 1st upgraded unit and states:

In January, it was reported that five Project 1155 large ASW ships of the Northern and Pacific fleets would be repaired and upgraded at the shipbuilding enterprises of North and Far East through 2022. A huge amount of work to update life support systems and radio-technical equipment of the ships will be fulfilled.

Upgrading the Udaloys makes a lot of sense and will hugely enhance their combat capability for ASW and anti-surface, though lack of a potent medium range SAM will prevent them from being a true multi-purpose destroyer.

Excellent news. 5 big ships till 2022? they never would be able to build 5 new frigates in such short  time.
Another source, list of planned procurement plan for 2017 for Dalzovod in Vladivostok  (although form 2015)

http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/1996073.html

There will be both:
Urans (Kh-35U if you prefer) and 2x8 Calibrs.

No info there about new AAD system but I would be surprised if RuN lets so big ship to be used for 30 more years had no decentAAD.
I'd guess that 4x AK-630 will be replaced by Palash/Pantsir and 4x8 kindhal by 2x12 Shtil (or in place of TA 550mm something as well)

Aside from the usual stupidity of the article falsely implying Russian ships entering UK Territorial waters other than 100% legal passage of English Channel etc, that pic is very interesting.
Note that most of Gorshkov hull is much closer to sea temperature, much more uniform temperature, hot spots mostly confined to expected areas like radar. (or is that just the extra distance hurting sensor resolution?)

Any idea what Gorshkov is doing in the North Sea?
Has it been in Baltic recently, I had the idea it was still up North since last round of tests?
If its been in Baltic, presumably transiting North for new tests, if its been North then a transit to Baltic would presumably be either for further refit or preps for handover.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
No info there about new AAD system but I would be surprised if RuN lets so big ship to be used for 30 more years had no decentAAD.
I'd guess that 4x AK-630 will be replaced by Palash/Pantsir and 4x8 kindhal by 2x12 Shtil (or in place of TA 550mm something as well)

Don't underestimate Kinzhal - its a navalised Tor and is a great missile for both point defense and can handle multiple small fast incoming threats with heavy enemy ECM.  I'd expect there is an upgrade path available for the old style Kinzhal bin launchers (the updated "Yozh" from the early 90s is equal to the Tor-M1).  Kinzhal (updated) and 4x AK-630s will give the Udaloy an excellent CIWS coverage.

I'd expect Kinzhal to be upgraded and AK-630s to be retained, but with improved sensors and controls (the Shaposhnikov has been stripped of her main radars but still retains the MR-360 podkats for kinzhal fire control).  Retrofit of a medium range SAM would be problematic, but could potentially be achieved with a portable package like a navalised Buk-M3 "TELAR" similar to the Tor-M2KM.  This would however require a new 3D target acquisition radar to fulfill the role that a "Snow Drift" assumes in a Buk battery, but as a new 3D radar appears to be part of the rebuild, this might not be a significant hurdle?  

My guess is that a medium-range SAM won't be part of the upgrade as a cost saving measure, and the Udaloys role will be to provide primary ASW support to task force, and to bolster anti-surface & land attack as needed.

BTW the Udaloy has 8x 8-round launcher bins, 4x fore & 4x aft, each with a MR-360 FCS.

...4x AK-630s will give the Udaloy an excellent CIWS coverage....

What are the chances of Udalois getting AK-630M1-2 (twin gun) CIWS, ones used on Buyan-M boats?

They fit on same slot and require little modifications on the ship, if any.

PapaDragon wrote:

...4x AK-630s will give the Udaloy an excellent CIWS coverage....

What are the chances of Udalois getting AK-630M1-2 (twin gun) CIWS, ones used on Buyan-M boats?

They fit on same slot and require little modifications on the ship, if any.

yup, even better just need a little more cash...

PapaDragon wrote:

...4x AK-630s will give the Udaloy an excellent CIWS coverage....

What are the chances of Udalois getting AK-630M1-2 (twin gun) CIWS, ones used on Buyan-M boats?

They fit on same slot and require little modifications on the ship, if any.

Not much of a chance.
The recoil of the duet system is much greater than that of the regular mounts. Parts of the superstructure and even hull of the ship will need to be strengthened.
Too much work and costs involved. Not worth it.

Big_Gazza wrote:
..........

You're right Tor or in this case probably Tor-M2M is potent short range missile nonetheless cannot protect of ship grouping. ASW is important task but I do no think that 5 ships is updated only for this role.  They are supposed to serve 30 more years until succeeded by Leaders. Besides ASW and AAD is what makes grouping of 22800 even harder to "take down".

TheArmenian wrote:
Not much of a chance.
The recoil of the duet system is much greater than that of the regular mounts. Parts of the superstructure and even hull of the ship will need to be strengthened. 
Too much work and costs involved. Not worth it.

For ships that still to serve 30 more years? are you sure?

The last ships to be laid down was Admiral Isakov in 2013...
That's 5 years ago, will the next be in the Project 22350M series and when will that take place? As I see it the M series, if a successful trial of the original of course, would be much better to Lider class Destroyer which will very expensive and takes along time to finish.
Its time to lay down Gorshkovs in serious numbers so they finally can retire the Uds and Sovs.

TheArmenian wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

...4x AK-630s will give the Udaloy an excellent CIWS coverage....

What are the chances of Udalois getting AK-630M1-2 (twin gun) CIWS, ones used on Buyan-M boats?

They fit on same slot and require little modifications on the ship, if any.

Not much of a chance.
The recoil of the duet system is much greater than that of the regular mounts. Parts of the superstructure and even hull of the ship will need to be strengthened.
Too much work and costs involved. Not worth it.

Are you sure? I mean I'm not saying that you are wrong but Udalois are really massive, they seem sturdy enough to deal with big CIWS recoil... aren't they?

runaway wrote:

The last ships to be laid down was Admiral Isakov in 2013... 

That's 5 years ago, will the next be in the Project 22350M series and when will that take place? As I see it the M series, if a successful trial of the original of course, would be much better to Lider class Destroyer which will very expensive and takes along time to finish.

Its time to lay down Gorshkovs in serious numbers so they finally can retire the Uds and Sovs.

Been saying that same thing myself for years, what are they waiting for?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:



For ships that still to serve 30 more years? are you sure?

300 more years, at least.

Then they'll get nuclear fusion power plants and get converted into spaceships.

After updates and SLEPs, they will serve actively between 12 and 15  more years each hull, that's it, reaching each hull 40+ active service's total life.

Only Admiral Chabanenko is likely to serve around 20 years after upgrade, because hull and systems are still fairly young.

3rd & 4th units under construction, photo dated Jan 18

Big_Gazza wrote:3rd & 4th units under construction, photo dated Jan 18

Six years in construction, and still a long way to go.

walle83 wrote:.....

Six years in construction, and still a long way to go.

And not a single new one ordered since.

I read on a russian forum that the only reason the super gorshkov is being even considered is because of russian admirals on almaz antey's payroll lobbying for it so more ships are built with almaz antey missiles. Apparently almaz antey is really scared of the russian navy not buying their mssiles anymore due to the redut shitshow.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:I read on a russian forum that the only reason the super gorshkov is being even considered is because of russian admirals on almaz antey's payroll lobbying for it so more ships are built with almaz antey missiles. Apparently almaz antey is really scared of the russian navy not buying their mssiles anymore due to  the redut shitshow.

You read it on a forum...  fuck, well it must be true...  

While we're on the subject, I read on a forum that the lead unit of the Pr 23560 Lider has been laid down already....  can't remember where I read it, but its gotta be real eh?...  

Back in the real world, Almaz-Antei is Russias premier manufacturer of SAM missiles, and despite any issues they may be having with long-range Redut, their future is assured.  They don't need to indulge in US style corruption by putting cash into the pockets of politicians and ex-Military "experts" and 'lobbyists" for the Gov to place orders for critical national defense equipment. The more likely reason for the "Super Gorshkov" is that the RuN wants a bigger ship so that it can significantly increase the firepower per hull?