Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

[quote="SeigSoloyvov"]Liders are supposed to be like 17000 tons.

These are cruisers, not DD's. [/quote

Zumwalt is rated as a destroyer. For Lider we still don`t know. Maybe that classification as a destroyer will be only smokescreen to allocate funding! Obviously, both projects look more as cruisers!

Nowadays there is no strict difference between ship types.

kumbor wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Liders are supposed to be like 17000 tons.

These are cruisers, not DD's.

Zumwalt is rated as a destroyer. For Lider we still don`t know. Maybe that classification as a destroyer will be only smokescreen to allocate funding! Obviously, both projects look more as cruisers!

Nowadays there is no strict difference between ship types.

[/quote]

yup I agree. Anyway tasks for those ships in similar categories will be similar. however in case of Lider I'd presume: more focus on anti CSG/anti ship operations then Zumwalt.

I believe project 22350 is maybe smaller than old Soviet destroyers, but more capable than them, so I don't see necessity for just a little bigger Gorshkov...especially if they are really going to built Lider class. I've read somewhere that project 22350 was supposed to relieve all destroyers (Sovremenny's and Udaloy's), but they are only building 4 Gorshkovs?! I know you guys were talking about problems with engines, shipyards, maybe even money...but still, this whole situation with this particular project looks to me totally strange.

hoom wrote:I think its more a question of if its worth building Lider when you're building Super Gorshkovs.
High-Low mix made plenty of sense with small Gorshkov, less so with a fairly big Super Gorshkov.

I am not aware of what weapons and systems the SG (Super Gorshkov) will carry, but I think it is reasonable to suspect a multi-role ship, destroyer sized (more VLS cells, bigger AD/ASW capability)



But the Lider is expected to be:

1) Nuclear-powered, with the huge consequences this has in regards of having a global reach
2) A very major AD and ABM asset including missiles from S-500 and, if to be judged from models, a very big and developed radar system

Cancelling Liders because of the SGs means as much as saying that anything above the size and capability of an average destroyer is not necessary in the Russian navy

2) A very major AD and ABM asset including missiles from S-500

Yeah I guess Lider with S-4/500 still makes sense if Super Gorshkov mainly just bumps cell count.
Doubling cell count to 96 of the fully universal UKSK-M & upgrading CIWS to Pantsir-M feels like a good target.
But 8,000ton might be big enough to give it S-4/500 capability & then Lider makes less sense. (but cell count might be a bit low)

hoom wrote:

2) A very major AD and ABM asset including missiles from S-500

Yeah I guess Lider with S-4/500 still makes sense if Super Gorshkov mainly just bumps cell count.
Doubling cell count to 96 of the fully universal UKSK-M & upgrading CIWS to Pantsir-M feels like a good target.
But 8,000ton might be big enough to give it S-4/500 capability & then Lider makes less sense. (but cell count might be a bit low)

It all depends on money! Frankly, Kirov class large cruisers were even in USSR presumed too expensive and too big, dubbed "golden toys of admiral Gorshkov".

Perhaps more depends on whether appropriate radar/missiles can be brought to service in timely manner.

I haven't heard much, but doubt they would stop at 4 ships, especially given Russia's dire need of Frigates, the 5th ship is reportedly called Admiral Yumashev.

As for the Gorshkov engines, reports indicate that the locally built engines for the following ships will be ready by this year.

And the SG, talks are abound, but there might be some actual move to get the SG instead of the Lider, price wise it makes perfect sense, and the tech is already developed, they are probably simply waiting for the first Gorshkov to be commissioned before they move to the next step, afterwards the only thing that really needs to be developed is the naval S-400, which could be done in short order.

AlfaT8 wrote:I haven't heard much, but doubt they would stop at 4 ships, especially given Russia's dire need of Frigates, the 5th ship is reportedly called Admiral Yumashev.

As for the Gorshkov engines, reports indicate that the locally built engines for the following ships will be ready by this year.

And the SG, talks are abound, but there might be some actual move to get the SG instead of the Lider, price wise it makes perfect sense, and the tech is already developed, they are probably simply waiting for the first Gorshkov to be commissioned before they move to the next step, afterwards the only thing that really needs to be developed is the naval S-400, which could be done in short order.

Frankly, i fear that in the end it could be none will be built!
i have studied russian and soviet projects from 1915-17 and 1935-50. What gorgeous ideas, what marvelous ships were on the drawing board! Battleships of 35.000 tons with 12/406 artillery. Battleships of 65.000 tons were started building - project 23, later project 24 of 80.000 tons full displacement.
But, neither of them were even launched, they were never finished.

Modern russian navy is getting rid of old soviet ships, new vessels are being built, but the rate of building is low. There is serious wavering from side to side, with lack of strategy how major ships should look like. Nevertheless, SS missiles are second to none, as are SA systems. Electronics are taking pace with western achievements and russian made propulsion is progressing.

kumbor wrote:
Frankly, i fear that in the end it could be none will be built!
i have studied russian and soviet projects from 1915-17 and 1935-50. What gorgeous ideas, what marvelous ships were on the drawing board! Battleships of 35.000 tons with 12/406 artillery. Battleships of 65.000 tons were started building - project 23, later project 24 of 80.000 tons full displacement.
But, neither of them were even launched, they were never finished.

so according to you a 80,000 battleship with absence of war and any need + battleships being obsolete makes sense?!



[qute] Modern russian navy is getting rid of old soviet ships, new vessels are being built, but the rate of building is low. There is serious wavering from side to side, with lack of strategy how major ships should look like. [/quote]

Not entirely correct IMHO. Shipbuilding is not in parallel universe.

First Russia had to rebuild all industry from almost scratch. This is not only equipment or training people. Ti is also, or foremost, building network of subcontractors, efficient management and removing as many as possible price inflating schema.

On top of this add generation change in army /fleet. Why to you thing Putin sacked so many generals and get many new names to both govt and army staff?

And last but not least money supply & external situation impacts strategy right ? nobody could say for sure that USA makes so fast Ukrainian coup to hit Russia. Sanctions also took its toll. If you take this into consideration situation is not that bad with shipbuilding?


OK one thing is fucked up. 22160 should both main entry level corvette and MRK replacing 22800.

Gorshkov delayed yet again (shocker...) this time to November. I think it's safe to say that this thing is a bust...

https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C27/

PapaDragon wrote:
Gorshkov delayed yet again (shocker...) this time to November. I think it's safe to say that this thing is a bust...

https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C27/

Do you mean the ship will fail to fulfil specs long term / be unreliable or simply that its time line is dismal?

LMFS wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Gorshkov delayed yet again (shocker...) this time to November. I think it's safe to say that this thing is a bust...

https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C27/

Do you mean the ship will fail to fulfil specs long term / be unreliable or simply that its time line is dismal?

They still haven't received first unit, no more are being ordered and design is already becoming outdated.

Situation would be different if they had dozen more on production line, problems would still be there but once solved they would at least have ships in numbers at some point. This way however, they are left with nothing.

PapaDragon wrote:

LMFS wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Gorshkov delayed yet again (shocker...) this time to November. I think it's safe to say that this thing is a bust...

https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C27/

Do you mean the ship will fail to fulfil specs long term / be unreliable or simply that its time line is dismal?

They still haven't received first unit, no more are being ordered and design is already becoming outdated.

Situation would be different if they had dozen more on production line, problems would still be there but once solved they would at least have ships in numbers at some point. This way however, they are left with nothing.

When dealing with such a troubled project, there is no way things are going to go smoothly after some point in time. Everything that can make a problem will make it, right to the bitter end. But I don't think the fate of the class is sealed, rather think this is a moment of re-assessment for the Russian navy. Probably the five units under construction will be finished, maybe also the sixth one apparently ordered. In parallel the design will be evaluated (AD system is new and engines are new too) and a decision will be taken to build more units or to update the design prior to that, or even to go for the Super Gorshkovs also. Imagine they order more ships and during early operation of the class it is clear Poliment-Redut is crap or the new engines unreliable. The good thing is after slowly mastering these issues, they will be in conditions to build state of the art frigates and destroyers with advance AD and strike systems, so the pain is well worth it.

LMFS wrote:

When dealing with such a troubled project, there is no way things are going to go smoothly after some point in time. Everything that can make a problem will make it, right to the bitter end. But I don't think the fate of the class is sealed, rather think this is a moment of re-assessment for the Russian navy. Probably the five units under construction will be finished, maybe also the sixth one apparently ordered. In parallel the design will be evaluated (AD system is new and engines are new too) and a decision will be taken to build more units or to update the design prior to that, or even to go for the Super Gorshkovs also. Imagine they order more ships and during early operation of the class it is clear Poliment-Redut is crap or the new engines unreliable. The good thing is after slowly mastering these issues, they will be in conditions to build state of the art frigates and destroyers with advance AD and strike systems, so the pain is well worth it.

This is all great, but they had so many years since the first one is laid down (2006) to make a RUSSIAN engine and a lot of other things for project 22350, but they obviously didn't think about it! Now, they are f**ked up and wondering around. It looks to me like those guys who did this blunder with Gorshkov are related to us, Serbs.  We are very good in f**king up things like that.

littlerabbit wrote:
This is all great, but they had so many years since the first one is laid down (2006) to make a RUSSIAN engine and a lot of other things for project 22350, but they obviously didn't think about it! Now, they are f**ked up and wondering around. It looks to me like those guys who did this blunder with Gorshkov are related to us, Serbs.  We are very good in f**king up things like that.

Is the brotherhood between Serbs and Russians so deep that you feel comfortable bashing them for their failures? The Serbian community in the forum are the worse critics of Russian navy from what I see, is this like a family fight or something?

Nevertheless, consider the environment the project had to face. Only the substitution of the Ukrainian engine is enough to delay such a project for a whole decade or cancel it completely, what are you expecting Russians to do? The problem appeared in 2014 and now it seems the new engines are going to be made available. There is simply no way it can be done faster. The Poliment-Redut is also another difficulty, but the Almaz guys were also busy with the S-500 which has much bigger, strategic relevance. If you add the fact that Russia essentially lost the shipbuilding capability during the 90's it all makes sense, unnerving as it can be...

PapaDragon wrote:
Gorshkov delayed yet again (shocker...) this time to November. I think it's safe to say that this thing is a bust...

https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C27/

The 22350 is a bust?... Oh FFS... PapaChickenLittle is at it again I see...

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the delays with the Gorshkov are associated with the integration and performance of an all-new generation of weapons and systems, and the Navy will not accept the vessel until ALL problems are resolved to their satisfaction. Unlike the US or NATO (where they accept vessels with faulty systems and unperforming machinery) the Ruskies demand their MIC companies actually deliver to the spec. They also don't accelerate deliveries by throwing money at the MIC, otherwise known as rewarding for failure.

The series build has been essentially suspended until engine issues (courtesy of the Ukropistani fuktardz) are finally resolved, again to the Navy satisfaction. Creation of a certified MGT powerplant was always going to be a 5-year project, and its hardly a surprise that the Navy has opted to defer the laying down of new Frigate-sized (and larger) vessels until they can get the certainty that their hulls won't be left for years without operable engines. Why the foxtrot do people think its sensible for Russia to fill up its shipyards with unfinished hulls lacking engines, all on the promise of a turbine maker who doesn't have a proven MGT? The idea is fucking madness, yet forum clowns keep banging on about this like a 10-year old autistic child who wants his ice-cream and wants it now....

The Gorshkov will be accepted when it is 100% ready and not before, the Kasanatov likewise. The rest will be completed when the engines are ready. Future hulls will likely be the "Super Gorshkov" variant as due to the sucess of the Kalibre system the Navy wants more firepower on its hulls.

Lets act (and post) like adults about this. No more Chicken Little "sky is falling" bullshit, as it all becoming so fucking tiresome....

I thought they'd previously announced it wouldn't be until late 2018 already?

On the other hand & if I'm remembering wrong, its up North doing shooting trials atm so the timing of this announcement may represent results of those trials being less than satisfactory...

hoom wrote:I thought they'd previously announced it wouldn't be until late 2018 already?

On the other hand & if I'm remembering wrong, its up North doing shooting trials atm so the timing of this announcement may represent results of those trials being less than satisfactory...

Reading that they still don't have the bugs out of the Redut Air Defense system... same reason we are not seeing any S350's yet.

franco wrote:

hoom wrote:I thought they'd previously announced it wouldn't be until late 2018 already?

On the other hand & if I'm remembering wrong, its up North doing shooting trials atm so the timing of this announcement may represent results of those trials being less than satisfactory...

Reading that they still don't have the bugs out of the Redut Air Defense system... same reason we are not seeing any S350's yet.

But I read in march that the poliment redut is working perfectly.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

franco wrote:

hoom wrote:I thought they'd previously announced it wouldn't be until late 2018 already?

On the other hand & if I'm remembering wrong, its up North doing shooting trials atm so the timing of this announcement may represent results of those trials being less than satisfactory...

Reading that they still don't have the bugs out of the Redut Air Defense system... same reason we are not seeing any S350's yet.

But I read in march that the poliment redut is working perfectly.

When was the last time you saw a test launch of that system on youtube or elsewhere, we saw plenty of Shtil launches, individual and salvos, at one or multiple targets.

For unknown reason, project 22350 is full of problems. But, bear in mind that radar, sonar and FCS were planned to be of a new model. Poliment-Redut is naval version of S-350, which is still not completed for land use. Because of ukrainian idiots, Russia finally turned for domestically made GTs, and thet`s OK. However, I think that propulsion is the main issue.

This drama has been going for way to long, we can only hope that all the problems have finally been hammered out and the modification are applied to the other ships.

As far as i can see there's no choice but to continue with Gorshkov, it's the most recent and capable design, there is no alternative.
With the possible exception of a modernized Grigorovich, but that's just gonna delay things more, and honestly the Grigorovich is already a revamped Kirvak.

miroslav wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

franco wrote:

hoom wrote:I thought they'd previously announced it wouldn't be until late 2018 already?

On the other hand & if I'm remembering wrong, its up North doing shooting trials atm so the timing of this announcement may represent results of those trials being less than satisfactory...

Reading that they still don't have the bugs out of the Redut Air Defense system... same reason we are not seeing any S350's yet.

But I read in march that the poliment redut is working perfectly.

When was the last time you saw a test launch of that system on youtube or elsewhere, we saw plenty of Shtil launches, individual and salvos, at one or multiple targets.

What does this have to do with reports of the poliment redut being ready?

kumbor wrote:For unknown reason, project 22350 is full of problems. But, bear in mind that radar, sonar and FCS were planned to be of a new model. Poliment-Redut is naval version of S-350, which is still not completed for land use. Because of ukrainian idiots, Russia finally turned for domestically made GTs, and thet`s OK. However, I think that propulsion is the main issue.  

The delays on the Navys acceptance of Gorshkov seems to be due to systems integration and performance issues, which are to be expected to some degree for a ship with an all-new suite of weapons & sensors and a first-of-its-kind-for-Russia integrated combat system (like the US Aegis). Redut-Polimont performance issues were associated with the long range missiles (short range worked fine) which now appear to have been resolved.

Gorshov hasn't been delayed as such by engine supply issues as she has a Ukropi MGT from Zorya-Mashproekt (as has Kasanatov) but series build had been essentially suspended as only a fool keeps building hulls when you don't have engines. Sounds like the build has been restarted (though its hard to tell), presumably as Saturn is close to completing certifications on the new MGTs.

The two issues shouldn't be conflated, but of course, they always are. Agenda-driven narratives rarely change over something as insignificant as facts and demonstrable truth...