Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

My experience is that there is no wasted space on any ship - every bit of internal volume

Well they have ground VLS with 16 tor. This rotary launcher takes lot of space specially the part in the middle which is probably the mechanism for rotating.

Ground tor vls is rather small. 16 missiles in that small tor vehicle means it would take very little space. Much less than those 8 cells rotary launchers.

They have the new vls ready and used in ground vehicles. They are working on the shp. I assume it would be a good idea to remove the old tor for a new one.

They seem to be working on the launchers.

The old systems... even the vertical launch systems like Klintok and Kinzhal, and Rif and Rif-M used revolving weapon magazines to hold the missiles and revolved them around in line with the missile hatch in the deck for launch.

If you imagine the revolvers chambers in a circle being taken out and replaced with a square grid of cells holding rounds ready to fire with no barrel needed, in the space of the old cylinder you could get a lot of rounds in that grid.

It is worse with these old missile launchers because you of course needed mechanisms under the deck to turn the missile racks and of course you needed to be able to access the missiles in their tubes so needed a decent space around the missiles for crew.

With the new missiles they are monitored electronically and don't need visual inspection and can be stacked side by side in a tight grid with no gaps.

More importantly each cell can have a range of weapons in it and you can fire any tube at any time without needing to move it in to position to fire.

It should also be lighter and mechanically simpler with no need to move any of the missiles.

Progress on the first 1155M

"At the end of 2015, the Marshal Shaposhnikov BPC was withdrawn from the standby forces in reserve for technical condition. The ammunition was unloaded from the ship, and it was for a long time at the 33 berth of Vladivostok in anticipation of being put into the plant for planned repairs with modernization. Earlier ( 04/01) the state contract No. Р / 1/8/0124 / ГК-15-ДГОЗ was concluded with the Dalzavod Ship Repair Center for the repair of the BOD with an extension of the overhaul life ... In February 2016, the ship embarked on the TsDS embankment. From the second quarter of the same year, the work entered an active phase, and complete them, on d nny time, it is planned in 2019 " (V. Muratov "Large anti-submarine ships of project 1155 of the Pacific Fleet", "Marine Collection" No. 3/2019). This spring, BOD was reclassified to frigate (Ref. 1).

In May, the Pacific Fleet command (and S. Avakyants personally) really hoped that in a few months the Marshal Shaposhnikov would leave the Dalzavod water area and go on sea trials (link 4). In June, it announced the completion of the crew formation and the first control exits to the sea planned by the end of the year (ref. 5). It is difficult to say what exactly gave rise to such optimism, but judging by the photographs above, the plans outlined turned out to be very far from reality.

In the September photo, we see a ship thoroughly "broken up" as a result of the global dismantling of weapons. From itself, two months ago, it differs only in the presence of a fence at the site of the dismantled high tower AK-100. In its location and shape, this wall corresponds to the one shown in a side view from the stand installed on the territory of the DSS (photo below). Despite the poor quality of the picture, with an increase it is possible to parse the 3C14 index, which belongs to the Caliber-NK launcher (UVP), in other words, to the universal naval firing complex (UKKS) for attack and anti-submarine missiles. In addition, the side view and photo No. 2 give an idea of ​​the number of UKKS - there should be two (2x8), oriented in the transverse direction (perpendicular to the diametrical plane, i.e. short sides to the sides).

You do not need to be a certified shipbuilding engineer to understand that in the state in which the order is now (in September), bringing it to marching readiness (readiness to go to sea) before the end of the year will not work with all desire. Oddly enough, but with reference to “Shaposhnikov,” the head of the shipbuilding department, Rear Admiral Tryapichnikov, did not hit the sky with his finger, but, most likely, to the very point. According to him, "the ship will be completely modernized and will again enter the combat structure of the Navy in 2021-2022" (ref. 6).

https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/220044.html

Marshal Shaposhnikov in the dry dock of the Dalzavod Ship Repair Center in​ Vladivostok

Confirmed, it will be getting 2x8 UKSK VLS tubes

Some folks are taking about Admiral Chabanenko getting an upgrade too, any info on that?

^ With its size it would carry more than 2x8 calibr/onix missile.

DerWolf wrote:^ With its size it would carry more than 2x8 calibr/onix missile.

It would require too much work

They are probably running out of Silex missiles so this is a replacement

Hopefully others will be getting upgrade too

DerWolf wrote:^ With its size it would carry more than 2x8 calibr/onix missile.

Internal space wasn't designed to incorporate UKSK. That's impossible unless redisigned the whole ship.

A modern design with its size can carry easily 10-12 UKSK-M for 80-96 missiles of all sorts (anti-ship, anti air, lacm, hypersonic ones...)

This project 21956 was supposed to be the follow on of the Udaloy class. Kh-101 can't be used however and the rotary launchers would be replaced today by UKSK-M. 6 on the front and you could probably have more than the 2 we see in the back. Maybe 4 or 5. And you can see how much more powerfull it is than a udaloy or sovromenny.

At the moment these upgrades are to create stopgap ships... ie previous generation vessels had a fixed armament... the Sovs carried 8 Moskits (ie Sunburns) and the Udaloys carried 8 Silexs (ie Metel anti sub torpedos with back up anti surface vessel capabilities).

Even just fitting two UKSK launchers to each of these vessels would not just double their main weapon capacity... it would also make them much more flexible in that they can carry their original high speed anti ship missile (Sunburn) or anti sub missile (Metel)... but they can actually carry twice the payload with 16 missiles... they can also carry a mix of weapons so they can carry 8 Onyx missiles with much better performance than Sunburn, and also carry 8x 91ER1 Club anti sub missiles too which also have better performance than Metel did... Metel is a subsonic missile that carried a torpedo and dropped it into the water to attack submarines... 91ER1 is a mach 2 ballistic rocket that delivers a modern torpedo to attack subs much faster... giving them less time to move.

But not even just that... ie but wait there is more... even just with 16 launch tubes they can now carry a variety of different missiles including long range land attack cruise missiles, subsonic long range anti tank missiles, multi stage subsonic/supersonic anti ship missiles, and long range anti ship missiles including brahmos, Yakhont, and Onyx which are all basically variations on the same design with anti ship and land attack capabilities, but also soon the zircon hypersonic anti ship and land attack missile.

The size of these vessels means better larger sensors and full equipment... ie dipping sonar and nose mounted sonar as well as air search radar and full comms suite, and more space for food and fuel and ammo so it will be able to operate longer and further from base too.

No western destroyer has an armament as potent as 16 Zircon missiles yet anyway, so even though they have corvettes with similar armaments that is OK because another 16 launch tubes is better than none.

It unifies the armament of the older vessels with the new boats so they will be easier to support too.

Isos wrote:

DerWolf wrote:^ With its size it would carry more than 2x8 calibr/onix missile.

Internal space wasn't designed to incorporate UKSK. That's impossible unless redisigned the whole ship.

A modern design with its size can carry easily 10-12 UKSK-M for 80-96 missiles of all sorts (anti-ship, anti air, lacm, hypersonic ones...)

This project 21956 was supposed to be the follow on of the Udaloy class. Kh-101 can't be used however and the rotary launchers would be replaced today by UKSK-M. 6 on the front and you could probably have more than the 2 we see in the back. Maybe 4 or 5. And you can see how much more powerfull it is than a udaloy or sovromenny.

When a ship has 12 UKSK tubes, does it mean it has 12 missiles or it usually has other salvos in storage. Also how many missiles could be carried per tube?

When a ship has 12 UKSK tubes, does it mean it has 12 missiles or it usually has other salvos in storage. Also how many missiles could be carried per tube?

1 UKSK = 8 tubes = 8 missiles (kalibr or oniks). It's the 2 in the back of the ship in front of the helicopter hangars.

So 12 UKSK is 12x8= 96 missiles.

UKSK-M will be better because it will be able to fit also air defence missiles. Still 8 cells but it could pack 4 smaller missiles per tubes instead of 1 big missile. So you could have from 8 to 32 missiles inside 1 UKSK-M. depend on which missiles you want.

There is no storage but they could theorically be reloaded at sea easily.

For the upgrade for this vessel it makes sense to fit two UKSK launchers where the front gun was fitted as that is along the centre line of the ship where the hull is deepest so they wont need to be built up into a high structure on deck to fit them and also in terms of internal structure if you had them sideways and tried to fit more the length of them would internally not only likely not fit but also would block under deck access to the front part of the ship.

Upgrading sensors and systems and giving the equivalent of AEGIS and installing two UKSK launchers under the front deck which can carry 16 missiles is pretty good fire power... especially when those sixteen missiles can be hypersonic Zircons or 4,500km range land attack missiles, or anti sub ballistic rocket delivered torpedoes.

They do have an angled launcher for the UKSK bins that could be fitted to replace the previous angled launch tubes for the original weapons used, so in theory it could carry four UKSK launchers... two fitted inside the front deck and two angled beside the bridge. The angled launchers probably mean the missiles launched need to be fired in the general direction they are expected to be used, whereas the vertical launch tubes can launch missiles in any direction.

Apparently they're going to be reclassed as Frigates after upgrades
https://flot.com/2019/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F54/

Apparently they're going to be reclassed as Frigates after upgrades

Well that's a fresh approach.

Did they say why? Because it's quite unconventional.

They will definitely be largest frigates to ever exit.

I wonder if they will reclassify Kirovs as battlestars?

PapaDragon wrote:

Apparently they're going to be reclassed as Frigates after upgrades

Well that's a fresh approach.

Did they say why? Because it's quite unconventional.

They will definitely be largest frigates to ever exit.

I wonder if they will reclassify Kirovs as battlestars?

Because they are not better than a 135m Gorshkov frigate.

Super gorshkov will be the new destroyer.

The Slavas could be upgraded with 1 UKSK instead of 1 twin launcher making it a battle cruiser with 64 cruise missiles.

But no one really care about designations. Oniks launched from a corvette or a destroyer is still the same weapon that can one shot a big ship. That's what matters.

Fair enough... in terms of fire power.... that will be their level.

They will definitely be largest frigates to ever exit.

They will likely use them as long range cruise frigates, so that designation would be appropriate...

I wonder if they will reclassify Kirovs as battlestars?

Well they would remain cruisers if they have 80 launch tubes for attack missiles, but most of their future cruisers will likely have more.

The Slavas could be upgraded with 1 UKSK instead of 1 twin launcher making it a battle cruiser with 64 cruise missiles.

But no one really care about designations. Oniks launched from a corvette or a destroyer is still the same weapon that can one shot a big ship. That's what matters.

Well they also have to be consistent... if they call Sovremmenys and Udaloys upgraded with two to four UKSK launchers and they have frigates with the same level or armament then it makes no sense to categorise them as different performance class ships... think of them as pre Gorshkov vessels with more emphasis on range and endurance with lots of spare crew members... the bar for destroyers is being raised higher.

PapaDragon wrote:They will definitely be largest frigates to ever exit.

Udaloys have full load displacement at 7,570tons so most of the current Euro-frigates are similar size or bigger.

hoom wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:They will definitely be largest frigates to ever exit.

Udaloys have full load displacement at 7,570tons so most of the current Euro-frigates are similar size or bigger.

My my how have they grown...

It would require too much work

They are probably running out of Silex missiles so this is a replacement

Hopefully others will be getting upgrade too

There was recently an article posted here about an electronic timer that was no longer being made and one of the platforms that used it was Metel, so it makes sense to eliminate the Metel (Silex) completely from service.

It is not like they are losing any important capability because the 91ER1 missile can be carried on the UKSK launcher so if they want they can load her up with the equivalent of one Udaloy payload of anti sub missiles and one Sovremmeny payload of supersonic anti ship missiles by loading 8 x 91ER1 and 8 x Onyx missiles... meaning the one upgraded Udaloy carrying the same attack missile payload as a Udaloy and Sovremmeny class destroyers.

The missiles will be more potent than the older missiles so they will double in fire power in terms of attack missiles.

PapaDragon wrote:

Apparently they're going to be reclassed as Frigates after upgrades

Well that's a fresh approach.

Did they say why? Because it's quite unconventional.

They will definitely be largest frigates to ever exit.

I wonder if they will reclassify Kirovs as battlestars?

Udaloys were classified as "Large anti-submarine ships" from Soviet era.
Probably the term frigate has to do with the multiroke capabilities of the ship after the upgrade not the displacement.

hoom wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:They will definitely be largest frigates to ever exit.

Udaloys have full load displacement at 7,570tons so most of the current Euro-frigates are similar size or bigger.

Similar size but less armed. Supergorshkov at 7000t will be armed even more.

Their frigates were less multi role...

The Krivak class Frigate had four anti sub missile tubes on the deck and light 76mm guns, which is half the armament of the Udaloy... which carries 8 ready to fire anti sub missiles and 100mm guns.

The problem is that they called Frigates guard ships, and destroyers were named for their role so Udaloys were not multi mission destroyers, because the SS-N-14 Silex only has a backup capability against surface ships... it is primarily an anti sub weapon and the Sovremmeny is anti ship destroyer... its only anti sub capability is from torpedos and RBU depth charge throwers...

GarryB wrote:Their frigates were less multi role...

The Krivak class Frigate had four anti sub missile tubes on the deck and light 76mm guns, which is half the armament of the Udaloy... which carries 8 ready to fire anti sub missiles and 100mm guns.

The problem is that they called Frigates guard ships, and destroyers were named for their role so Udaloys were not multi mission destroyers, because the SS-N-14 Silex only has a backup capability against surface ships... it is primarily an anti sub weapon and the Sovremmeny is anti ship destroyer... its only anti sub capability is from torpedos and RBU depth charge throwers...

actually that is the reason the current flagship of the mighty Ukrainian navy was built to be a patrol ship of the Soviet coastal guard, not as a frigate of the Soviet navy...


Udaloys are beautiful ships and the size, speed and endurance were optimal for their role. I hope that gorshkov-M will be as beautiful as them.

Furthermore, from what I can see from the photos.. their size is about the maximum that can be accepted in the ship repair yard dalzavod in Vladivostok...

Similar size but less armed. Supergorshkov at 7000t will be armed even more.

Did anyone bring up Supergorshkov?
Udaloys are going to be big for frigates & relatively weakly armed for their size.

Really would have liked to see some form of newer SAM system as part of the upgrade.

hoom wrote:

Similar size but less armed. Supergorshkov at 7000t will be armed even more.

Did anyone bring up Supergorshkov?
Udaloys are going to be big for frigates & relatively weakly armed for their size.

Really would have liked to see some form of newer SAM system as part of the upgrade.

I was comparing the difference btw european, soviet and modern russian 7kt ships.

New SAMs means new radars and new operating consols, new wires ... too much expensive and would take easily 2 more years to upgrade. They are also limited by internal design that limits the lenght of missiles to tor analogues only.

Isos wrote:

hoom wrote:

Similar size but less armed. Supergorshkov at 7000t will be armed even more.

Did anyone bring up Supergorshkov?
Udaloys are going to be big for frigates & relatively weakly armed for their size.

Really would have liked to see some form of newer SAM system as part of the upgrade.

E

I was comparing the difference btw european, soviet and modern russian 7kt ships.

New SAMs means new radars and new operating consols, new wires ... too much expensive and would take easily 2 more years to upgrade. They are also limited by internal design that limits the lenght of missiles to tor analogues only.

well probably they could have put there a couple of pantsir for improved short range... I thought anyway that they were getting the upgraded shtil 1 modules (naval buk) similar to what grigorovich frigate has for medium range defence...

But yeah, it has to be a relatively fast and cost effective upgrade and I hope they will upgrade all of the existing udaloys.


Completely new systems will go on new ships with new internal design and layout (gorshkovM).

The only question is if they will have only one version of gorshkovM or if they will do 2 versions: one balanced to do everything at the same level (basically a bigger 22350) and one with bigger sonar, two hangars for helicopters and optimised for ASW (basically a modern udaloy but with strong capacity also in SW and AAW)

Probably due to the flexibility offered by modern UKSK launchers, that can be loaded with anti sub rockets, antiship or land attack missile before each mission, the main difference could be if one version will have to sacrifice some internal space for a second helicopter hangar... maybe a container module could be put there when the second helicopter is not needed...