Project 20836 Derzkiy-class modular Corvette

Gazputin wrote:one side says we need ships to be overloaded with maximum weapons and consequently crew comfort doesn't matter so much
ie for "total war"

vs

lets sacrifice maximum weapons for mission adaptability (including non military)
and give the crew some more comfort on "peacetime patrols" …
(add to that the cost pressures of running navies - govts like to see "multi-purpose" ships …. )

this ship is skewed to the latter approach ….

if a real war broke out … would you want to be on a ship this size ? I wouldn't
you'd be blown out of the water in 45 minutes ….

Project 20386 Corvettes Fully Substitute Project 11356 Frigates, Russian Navy’s Official Says

In the Russian Navy, Project 20386 corvettes will completely replace Project 11356 frigates, reports Mil.Press Today referring to the director of the Russian Navy’s shipbuilding and armament department, Vladimir Tryapichnikov, at the launching ceremony of the Project 12700 (Alexandrite class) minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov.

The Project 20386 multipurpose corvettes were developed at Almaz Design Bureau. They are intended for short/long-range naval warfare, protection of sea lanes and maritime commercial facilities.

Displacing 3,400 tons (length 109 meters), the ships will be armed with A-190-01 100-mm artillery system, two AK-630M 30-mm artillery mounts, Redut air defense system, two Paket-NK antisubmarine system launchers, and Caliber high-precision cruise missiles (or Uran antiship missiles). Also, each corvette will carry either Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter.

The Project 20386 lead ship was laid down on September 28, 2016 at Severnaya Verf shipyard. Initially called Derzky, in 2019 it was renamed into Mercury, after the Imperial Russian Navy’s brig. The shipbuilders plan to launch the ship in the spring of 2021.

Currently, the Russian Navy operates three Project 11356 frigates: Admiral Grigorovich, Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov. Building of the second trio of the project was suspended after frustrated deliveries of the gas turbine powerplants made by Ukrainian Zorya-Mashproject.

Displacement of Project 11356 frigates is 4,000 tons, speed is 30 knots, endurance is 30 days; onboard weapons include: A-190 100-mm artillery mount, air defense artillery/missile systems, torpedo and ASW warfare facilities, and Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. The frigates accommodate Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopters.

flamming_python wrote:This was probably posted somewhere before, but it's nice to have an official confirmation:

http://mil.today/2019/Navy51/

Project 20386 Corvettes Fully Substitute Project 11356 Frigates, Russian Navy’s Official Says

In the Russian Navy, Project 20386 corvettes will completely replace Project 11356 frigates, reports Mil.Press Today referring to the director of the Russian Navy’s shipbuilding and armament department, Vladimir Tryapichnikov, at the launching ceremony of the Project 12700 (Alexandrite class) minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov.

The Project 20386 multipurpose corvettes were developed at Almaz Design Bureau. They are intended for short/long-range naval warfare, protection of sea lanes and maritime commercial facilities.

Displacing 3,400 tons (length 109 meters), the ships will be armed with A-190-01 100-mm artillery system, two AK-630M 30-mm artillery mounts, Redut air defense system, two Paket-NK antisubmarine system launchers, and Caliber high-precision cruise missiles (or Uran antiship missiles). Also, each corvette will carry either Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter.

The Project 20386 lead ship was laid down on September 28, 2016 at Severnaya Verf shipyard. Initially called Derzky, in 2019 it was renamed into Mercury, after the Imperial Russian Navy’s brig. The shipbuilders plan to launch the ship in the spring of 2021.

Currently, the Russian Navy operates three Project 11356 frigates: Admiral Grigorovich, Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov. Building of the second trio of the project was suspended after frustrated deliveries of the gas turbine powerplants made by Ukrainian Zorya-Mashproject.

Displacement of Project 11356 frigates is 4,000 tons, speed is 30 knots, endurance is 30 days; onboard weapons include: A-190 100-mm artillery mount, air defense artillery/missile systems, torpedo and ASW warfare facilities, and Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. The frigates accommodate Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopters.

Dima wrote:

flamming_python wrote:This was probably posted somewhere before, but it's nice to have an official confirmation:

http://mil.today/2019/Navy51/

Project 20386 Corvettes Fully Substitute Project 11356 Frigates, Russian Navy’s Official Says

In the Russian Navy, Project 20386 corvettes will completely replace Project 11356 frigates, reports Mil.Press Today referring to the director of the Russian Navy’s shipbuilding and armament department, Vladimir Tryapichnikov, at the launching ceremony of the Project 12700 (Alexandrite class) minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov.

The Project 20386 multipurpose corvettes were developed at Almaz Design Bureau. They are intended for short/long-range naval warfare, protection of sea lanes and maritime commercial facilities.

Displacing 3,400 tons (length 109 meters), the ships will be armed with A-190-01 100-mm artillery system, two AK-630M 30-mm artillery mounts, Redut air defense system, two Paket-NK antisubmarine system launchers, and Caliber high-precision cruise missiles (or Uran antiship missiles). Also, each corvette will carry either Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter.

The Project 20386 lead ship was laid down on September 28, 2016 at Severnaya Verf shipyard. Initially called Derzky, in 2019 it was renamed into Mercury, after the Imperial Russian Navy’s brig. The shipbuilders plan to launch the ship in the spring of 2021.

Currently, the Russian Navy operates three Project 11356 frigates: Admiral Grigorovich, Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov. Building of the second trio of the project was suspended after frustrated deliveries of the gas turbine powerplants made by Ukrainian Zorya-Mashproject.

Displacement of Project 11356 frigates is 4,000 tons, speed is 30 knots, endurance is 30 days; onboard weapons include: A-190 100-mm artillery mount, air defense artillery/missile systems, torpedo and ASW warfare facilities, and Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. The frigates accommodate Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopters.

I consider it stupid. 20386 doesn't have growth potential in its size and design, its already packed tight.

Where as 11356 has not yet been optimised and still presents a lot of growth potential.

Few things that 11356 presents -
- Remove RBU-6000 - install additional 8 x VLS for caliber/Yakhont
- An integrated mast - which frees up the entire amidship
which helps to install
- 16-24-32 x Uran or Kaliber inclined launchers OR
- atleast 64 x canistered 9M317M missiles in inclined position.

Rework the current propulsion to have a CODAG with M90 and D49, same as what 20386 have.

Mind that, the above stuff will make 11356 comparable to the current 22350 class or even better in terms of weaponry it can carry!
Now, that presents another question - is it why 11356 design is not getting upgraded?

Dima wrote:

flamming_python wrote:This was probably posted somewhere before, but it's nice to have an official confirmation:

http://mil.today/2019/Navy51/

Project 20386 Corvettes Fully Substitute Project 11356 Frigates, Russian Navy’s Official Says

In the Russian Navy, Project 20386 corvettes will completely replace Project 11356 frigates, reports Mil.Press Today referring to the director of the Russian Navy’s shipbuilding and armament department, Vladimir Tryapichnikov, at the launching ceremony of the Project 12700 (Alexandrite class) minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov.

The Project 20386 multipurpose corvettes were developed at Almaz Design Bureau. They are intended for short/long-range naval warfare, protection of sea lanes and maritime commercial facilities.

Displacing 3,400 tons (length 109 meters), the ships will be armed with A-190-01 100-mm artillery system, two AK-630M 30-mm artillery mounts, Redut air defense system, two Paket-NK antisubmarine system launchers, and Caliber high-precision cruise missiles (or Uran antiship missiles). Also, each corvette will carry either Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter.

The Project 20386 lead ship was laid down on September 28, 2016 at Severnaya Verf shipyard. Initially called Derzky, in 2019 it was renamed into Mercury, after the Imperial Russian Navy’s brig. The shipbuilders plan to launch the ship in the spring of 2021.

Currently, the Russian Navy operates three Project 11356 frigates: Admiral Grigorovich, Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov. Building of the second trio of the project was suspended after frustrated deliveries of the gas turbine powerplants made by Ukrainian Zorya-Mashproject.

Displacement of Project 11356 frigates is 4,000 tons, speed is 30 knots, endurance is 30 days; onboard weapons include: A-190 100-mm artillery mount, air defense artillery/missile systems, torpedo and ASW warfare facilities, and Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. The frigates accommodate Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopters.

I consider it stupid. 20386 doesn't have growth potential in its size and design, its already packed tight.

Where as 11356 has not yet been optimised and still presents a lot of growth potential.

Few things that 11356 presents -
- Remove RBU-6000 - install additional 8 x VLS for caliber/Yakhont
- An integrated mast - which frees up the entire amidship
which helps to install
- 16-24-32 x Uran or Kaliber inclined launchers OR
- atleast 64 x canistered 9M317M missiles in inclined position.

Rework the current propulsion to have a CODAG with M90 and D49, same as what 20386 have.

Mind that, the above stuff will make 11356 comparable to the current 22350 class or even better in terms of weaponry it can carry!
Now, that presents another question - is it why 11356 design is not getting upgraded?

What would be the point of building heavily modified 11356 instead of additional 22350?

Isos wrote:

What would be the point of building heavily modified 11356 instead of additional 22350?

Both are overpriced. Build Gorshkovs is the best thing they could do.

Grigorovitch were a quick solution for black sea fleet. They are based on an old design. The 3 they have are very good for the black sea for the next 15-20 years. But RuN won't make an old design their backbone.

Those Steregouchshy derivates are expensive and offer nothing more over a normal steregouchshy armed with a uksk. They went crazy when they started puting the last techs on it bringing the price to the level of a big frigate for no reason.

The small amount of weapon on both ships makes them very unlikely to be able to operate far from friendly air bases. They have enough weapon to protect themselves against only one ship armed with 8 antiship missiles. If they face two they are dead.

Their high price prices mean thry won't have lot of them. That's why it's better to stop their production and go for only Gorshkovs.


Karkakurt - Steregouchshy - Gorshkov - Gorshkov M is what their navy should look like.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:What would be the point of building heavily modified 11356 instead of additional 22350?

flamming_python wrote:Yeah ultimately I agree. Gorshkovs, and a mix of Stereguschiys and Gremyashiys.

The 20386 is an attempt at an LCS analogue, but it will suffer the same problems. For Russia a modular vessel concept is best reserved for the Project 22160 class, and in the future, through the use of containers on all types of ships that can be interchanged between them, rather than modules specific to a given vessel class.

flamming_python wrote:If you missed it, the Ukrainians aren't selling the turbines for the 11356

And I agree, it was a design still with some room for improvements potentially

But the Navy always ultimately viewed it as a stopgap, fitted with tried and trusted hardware, not the latest cutting-edge weaponry.

To be sure, there are several disadvantages with the modular 20386 approach; but it's clear that for light frigates the Navy is not going back to the 11356 anyway and that it's yesterday's hardware.

The point of the 20386 is that they can be fitted with different modules as per the mission. Sonar module, anti-ship module (with Kalibrs; as standard I think it only has Urans), EW module, etc... as needed; and fit some specialist capabilities onto it that you can't onto the Gorshkovs or Grigoroviches.
Who knows how this approach will work in reality, especially given that the Gorshkovs don't cost much more and and already fit most of these capabilities as standard.

...I just cant believe that no one notices how beautifully simple the ship is with lots of growth potential...

PapaDragon wrote:Grigorovich-class also beautifully obsolete and any growth potential is already fulfilled and exceed in Gorshkov

And let's not forget the most important issue of them all: No engines

Not now, not ever

This ship class is finished, they moved on from them long ago

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:In their current form they are decent ships, comparable to Chinese 054A, and could be of interest to several nations.

If they find customers (like India) that can work with the Ukraine to get the engines they can still be produced (maybe Pakistan? That would be funny).

However, producing additional 11356 makes sense only in their current form (and for export), because once you start modifying the design a bit here and a bit there, and changing the powerplant and the weapon systems it will be a new ship, and it will cost like a new ship.

I cannot see the point to modify the 11356 to accommodate systems (and powerplants) made for the 22350 (Gorshkov class frigate) when they can just order additional 22350. The cost of your modified 11356 won't be much less than 22350. In addition, they would have to repeat a lot of the testings, since it will be basically a new ship, while for 22350 they would just have to produce additional serial frigates.

22350 frigates are only a  bit larger than 11356 and already offer all the system that you are talking about.
Finally they finished development testing and they have a ship in service and another one will join the ranks within a couple of weeks.

Dima wrote:
22350 as we see it is almost finished, neither did it go in for mass production as a successor to the large number of 1135 series that served the Soviet Navy, nor did it make any major contribution to enhancing the Russian naval fleet.

From the looks of it, in future its going to be 20386 and 22350M (which is suppose to be around 7,000t compared to 4,500t of 22350).
Project 22350 in its current size is finished unless export orders pop up. Probably the shortest a new Russian ship design has lasted. The same fate awaits the 20386, sooner or later they will realise its wasn't worth and will look for a new deign.

mnztr wrote:

Dima wrote:
Project 22350 in its current size is finished unless export orders pop up. Probably the shortest a new Russian ship design has lasted. The same fate awaits the 20386, sooner or later they will realise its wasn't worth and will look for a new deign.

We shall see I have heard talk of both being built, but it does not make sense to have the standard one when the M can carry so much more firepower with the same sensors and electronics for a small amount more.