Project 20836 Derzkiy-class modular Corvette

I never saw any official or respactable source saying the torpedo tube on Grigorovitch can launch kalibr missiles.

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/kalibr-nke/

This source respectable enough for you?

Rosoboronexport.

The two weapons in question are the 91RE1, which is the version used in 533mm calibre torpedo tubes on subs and on ships.

The 91RTE2 is the 650mm version, which would not be used on ships as no Russian ships have 650mm torpedo tubes AFAIK... this page lists the Club family of export weapons, which is also basically the Kalibr family but with serious range limitations... as you can see these are all torpedo tube launched weapons for 533mm and 650mm calibre torpedo tubes as fitted to subs and ships and subs respectively.

If you want further evidence I have seen video on Youtube showing a launch of a torpedo weapon from a Russian ship where the torpedo is launched into the sea... and seconds later a rocket blasts out of the water on its way to the location of the enemy sub...

In fact here it is....

Isos wrote:There is no proof grigorovitch can launch kalibr through its torpedo tubes. They need to make an upgrade and connect the tube to the kalib command PC.

Accordig to your link also the submarine launched version is launched through the 650mm torpedo tubes and not through the 533mm. Which is contradicted by the fact that improved kilo launch their kalibr through their 533mm tubes. So your link is not reliable.

Your video shows the old model of metel or whatever version it is. It is only possible only on Udaloy 2 and PtG. Older udaloy carry the same system but launched from the angled launchers because the system wasn't designed for ship's torpedo tubes. They adapted the submarine version for the use with ship's tt so that the angled launchers could be used for moskit missiles.

I think the vid shows the RPK-2 Vyuga (SS-N-15 Starfish) from a 533mm tube, launched either from a Slava or Udaloy-II as both have enclosed torp bays adjacent a section of open deck. It can be launched from subs or surface vessels including Udaloys (and Kirovs, Slavas, and IIRC the Neustrashimy frigate).  Its bigger brothers are the RPK-6 Vodopad/RPK-7 Veter (SS-N-16 Stallion) using 650mm tubes and AFAIK are limited to submarines only.

There is confusion (at least in my mind) regarding the UKSK compatible ASW rockets and their association with the previous Soviet-era RPKs.  The 91R1/91RE1 looks to be a modernised development of RPK-2, retaining the general rocket booster design and use of grid fins.  The 91RT2/91RTE2 appears to be a new design and doesn't resemble any of the RPKs.  RPK-6/7 doesn't seem to have been updated for UKSK (?), or if it has, they've kept it under wraps.

BTW the Metel/Rastrubs (SS-N-14) are a totally different design with the payload slung under the rocket carrier.  It requires specialised launchers, ie the inclined box launchers on Udaloys at port/starbrd fwd.

Isos wrote:

But compared to Mercury and Gorshkov they are obsolete

Gorshkov yes, Mercury hell no !

Mercury could be their replacement only for the black sea and send the grigorovitch to the north because black sea is a closed sea and doesn't need a frigate to operate inside. And take the Moskva with them.

Mercury is more advanced than Grigorevich, this is a fact

As for replacement, role which Grigorevich performs now will be taken by Gorshkovs

Those 3 Grigorevich in use will be completing their service life as planned, they aren't going anywhere

Mercury will he replacing other corvettes

There is no proof grigorovitch can launch kalibr through its torpedo tubes. They need to make an upgrade and connect the tube to the kalib command PC.

Their 533mm calibre torpedo tubes are standardised... the 533mm torpedo tubes on their ships are the same as the ones on their subs... just the loading gear is different... they are designed to use the same ammo.

Look through the website I provided and tell me which torpedo is especially designed for use only from ships... you wont find any entry that states this 533mm torpedo or weapon can only be launched from a sub, because they design them to be launched from the launcher.

That is why in the video the torpedo splashes into the water and then travels a distance through the water and then launches out of the water instead of launching the rocket motor from the torpedo tube... it is designed to be fired underwater but can be fired from outside the water from a ship.

Accordig to your link also the submarine launched version is launched through the 650mm torpedo tubes and not through the 533mm. Which is contradicted by the fact that improved kilo launch their kalibr through their 533mm tubes. So your link is not reliable.

The link is the official export company of Russia... they sell this stuff to China and India... there is no more reliable source available.

Lets read what it says shall we?

The system is the Club-N integrated missile system:

Club-N missile system features standardized launch units and transport-launch containers.

Standardised by calibre. Not by whether it is being launched from a ship or a sub.

They have two current types of missiles that deliver a torpedo... 91ER1 which is a 533mm calibre torpedo launched weapon for subs and ships via their 533mm torpedo tubes, and a larger heavier 91RTE2 which is a 650mm calibre torpedo launched weapons for subs and ships now via either the 650mm torpedo tubes on a sub or the UKSK vertical launchers on subs or ships.

During the cold war the 91RE1 equivalent was called SS-N-15 and the 91RTE2 equivalent was called SS-N-16.

Some of their smaller ships don't have 533mm torpedo tubes and therefore cannot use this weapon but the Grigorovich does.

91RE1 anti-submarine ballistic missile (Club-S) performs a controlled flight to the target area. Its separable warhead is a high-speed homing torpedo with a sonar target seeker.

91RTE2 anti-submarine ballistic missile (Club-N) differs from 91RE1 missile in size and booster design

As you can see the 91re1 is just a conventional torpedo weapon launched from conventional torpedo tubes... whether from a sub or a ship.

The 91RTE2 has a booster design because it is launched vertically from UKSK launch tubes... the 91RT2 (note no E and therefore not for export, because they do not export subs with 650mm torpedo tubes) doesn't have a booster design because it is launched through a torpedo tube...

The torpedo tubes for exported ships will just use standard 533mm torpedoes because for them to be effective you need to be able to detect enemy subs 30-50km away, and most countries couldn't manage that anyway...

Russia expects to be able to fight NATO and as Mindstorm mentions this is a sneaky way they can one up those arrogant assholes.

It is actually rather hilarious...

Isos wrote:

But compared to Mercury and Gorshkov they are obsolete

Gorshkov yes, Mercury hell no !

Mercury could be their replacement only for the black sea and send the grigorovitch to the north because black sea is a closed sea and doesn't need a frigate to operate inside. And take the Moskva with them.

The Russian Navy even wanted Gorshkov frigates for the Black sea, and they ordered Grigorovich only because the development of 22350 was not ready yet.

One of the reasons black sea fleet was not replenished until 2014 was that the ukraine was always creating problems.

Russia needs frigates and destroyers in the Black Sea fleet, because the BSF operates also in the Mediterranean and in the Indian Ocean. Otherwise they would have to "steal" ships from the Pacific or northern fleet.

Now they are also recreating a permanent Mediterranean squadron. It is easier if they have a domestic operating base nearby in addition to the foreign base in Syria (and maybe Egypt in the future.

PapaDragon wrote:Nothing will be replacing 20386 any time soon, 20386 will be replacing 20380, 20385 and 11356

20386 design won't last long, a new successor will soon come.

Replacing 11356 in particular will be quite easy since it's epically inferior platform built in pathetic series of 3 whole vessels for Russian navy only to die a miserable death and be sold off to India at glorious discount just to clear dock space

You wont ever stop being a manipulative & dishonest asole

Of course it won't be, no corvette will

Corvettes are relic of era of Peace and Partnership (TM) defense doctrine which died in 2014

They just need handful of them now for various odd-jobs and nothing more

So corvettes wont be there as well....  
20380 has been succeeded by 20385 and which is getting succeeded by 20386... and you admitted earlier that 20386 is not going to be built in large numbers either...

So in your opinion what will make up the Russian fleet?

Frigates are backbone of new doctrine

So which are these frigates you are mentioning?
 

Yes I do

A sad and pathetic history it is

So dont run away and tell what was it with Yantar and the "couldn't complete a glorified cargo ship for 20 years"

You do have a big and filthy mouth there

Too bad the brain is greatly lagging when it comes to size

Says a manipulative and dishonest person lacking comprehension and struggling with elementary math.

PapaDragon wrote:Usefulness is besides the point

Their obsolescence is the issue

Define obsolescence.

Dont run away like a coward, explain what is obsolete w.r.t to 11356...

For the sake of understanding...

PapaDragon wrote:Mercury is more advanced than Grigorevich, this is a fact

So what are are the areas in which 20386 is advanced that 11356?
Specify the areas

As for replacement, role which Grigorevich performs now will be taken by Gorshkovs

Role of 11356 won't be taken by 22350!
There are only 3 x 11356 and ONE OPERATIONAL + ONE in SEA TRIAL + FOUR under construction 22350 as of DEC 2019, far too less ships to take some one else or interchange their roles.

Those 3 Grigorevich in use will be completing their service life as planned, they aren't going anywhere

Yes. Remember it.

Mercury will he replacing other corvettes

So according to you, 20386 is what - a Corvette or a Frigate?

And 20386 will be replacing which other corvettes?

Dima, nobody is saying that the 3 11356 in service will be sold or removed from service. They are there and they will stay many years. They will not build new ones for the Russian navy, that's all.

It would make sense if the last 3 grigorovich that should have gone to the Russian black sea fleet will be replaced by three Gorshkov frigates. Of course we (forum members) cannot be sure of it, but it would make sense. However, since the black sea fleet received three 11356 frigates, and the Pacific fleet no new large new ships, only large corvettes and a modernised Udaloy, it is probable that the BSF will receive them only after both the northern and the Pacific will have already got their first few ships.

It would be different, of course, if other shipyards would build 22350 in addition to Severnaya Verf. Yantar, as an example, since they were already building the 11356 for the BSF. It would make sense for them to build other frigates.

Dima wrote:....20386 design won't last long, a new successor will soon come....

20 years is not a long time yes, but it will suffice

Dima wrote:...and you admitted earlier that 20386 is not going to be built in large numbers either...

Of course they won't and they won't need to be

It's doubtful they will need more than dozen corvettes overall given the new doctrine

Dima wrote:...So in your opinion what will make up the Russian fleet?...

In the opinion of Russian MoD the fleet will be made up of frigates

Dima wrote:...So which are these frigates you are mentioning?...

Frigates that Rusian MoD is mentioning are Gorshkov-class

I personally agree with MoD but even if I didn't who am I to complain?
 

Dima wrote:....explain what is obsolete w.r.t to 11356...

Hull, superstructure, engines, radars, weapons and electronics

But cooking stove is still good so there is alway that

Dima wrote:....Define obsolescence....

As a qualified teacher with a decade of work experience I will now explain it in a way even you will be able to understand:

Imagine if you had a copy of a videogame for old X-box

Disc still looks shiny and box still looks cool with a pretty picture and you are convinced that it works great.

But then you go to your friend who has brand new PlayStation 4 and you try to use the game but you can't.

You insert disc but nothing happens. You keep pressing buttons on the console but nothing happens. You hit the console with your fat greasy fingers but still nothing happens. You start throwing tantrums and cry but nothing happens. You scream and wet yourself while all your friends laugh at you but still nothing happens. Game simply doesn't work on such advanced hardware.

This means that the the game disc has fallen victim to obsolescence.

Someone like you most certainly experienced similar scenario so this should be pretty precise explanation.

But if you still lack mental acumen required to understand it just let me know and I will make a simplified video explanation for you with flashcards.

Isos wrote:Trying to put a videogame made for xbox inside a ps4 shows that you have no clue of what you are talking

The grigorovitch is more lika ps4 inside a ps3 that was cleaned for around 70% of the price of a ps4... It is brand new with newest stuff and you can put videogames (Missiles inside uksk) inside.

Grigorovitch is based on an outadated frigate but everything inside is from 2000s. Gorshkov is better but at the time they build the grigorovitch it was still in r&d.

Grigorovitch is old stuff
RBU-6000, Shtil-1, AK-630 CIWS, Soviet-era (Ukrainian) gas turbines and no doubt the radars are also last-gen.

I mean sure its still modern, and certainly more so than the Soviet-era ships. But why build it now, in 2020, when you have better options? The Grigorovich was meant to be an inexpensive stop-gap, and with the Ukrainians stopping supplies it became more trouble than it's worth to continue with.

When you compare to Paket-NK, Redut VLS, AK-630M Duet or Palma CIWS, the new Saturn gas turbines - that's all the latest gear, and no doubt optimizations in layout, newer electronics and better C4I integration due to things like the 20386 or Gorshkov being new classes with new hulls that have those capabilities better figured in.

flamming_python wrote:Grigorovitch is old stuff
RBU-6000, Shtil-1, AK-630 CIWS, Soviet-era (Ukrainian) gas turbines and no doubt the radars are also last-gen.

I mean sure its still modern, and certainly more so than the Soviet-era ships. But why build it now, in 2020, when you have better options? The Grigorovich was meant to be an inexpensive stop-gap, and with the Ukrainians stopping supplies it became more trouble than it's worth to continue with.

When you compare to Paket-NK, Redut VLS, AK-630M Duet or Palma CIWS, the new Saturn gas turbines - that's all the latest gear, and no doubt optimizations in layout, newer electronics and better C4I integration due to things like the 20386 or Gorshkov being new classes with new hulls that have those capabilities better figured in.

Good summary, and that should the final word on the subject (but somehow, i doubt it will be.... )

Grigorovich is not that old stuff. it is still more modern than Yaroslav Mudry in Baltic fleet. Grigorovich have 8 cell UKSK for Kalibr, Onyx and most probably for Zirkon missiles in the future as well. Its main air defense complex Shtil-1 is the same as ground based Buk-M3.

Isos wrote:Trying to put a videogame made for xbox inside a ps4 shows that you have no clue of what you are talking

Fact that you think that that whole story was about PlayStation and Xbox and not about something else tells me that I will be making two videos with flashcards instead of just one

medo wrote:Grigorovich is not that old stuff. it is still more modern than Yaroslav Mudry in Baltic fleet.  Grigorovich have 8 cell UKSK for Kalibr, Onyx and most probably for Zirkon missiles in the future as well. Its main air defense complex Shtil-1 is the same as ground based Buk-M3.

yaroslav musei is a ship from the 80s (laid down in 1988). it was completed in 2009  because the ship was left uncompleted from soviet times. It was such an outdated concept in the 2010s that the third hull of this class, left ar 30% completeness, was scrapped a couple of years ago, because it was not worth to complete a ship with soviet era technology and small possibility of improvement when much better projects were available.Of course the ships already built will stay in service as long as possible and they are useful for antisubmarine warfare, but it is not worth to occupy precious building space in the shipyards with something like that.

So saying that admiral grigorovich frigates are more modern than Yaroslav Mudri is not a big accomplishment.

As already said they are decent ship on par or a bit better than the Chinese 054a frigates, but quite outclassed if compared to Admiral Gorshkov class.

As far as Shtil-1 it should be the naval version of BuKM2, not of the M3 version.

Grigorovitch is old stuff
RBU-6000, Shtil-1, AK-630 CIWS, Soviet-era (Ukrainian) gas turbines and no doubt the radars are also last-gen.

It is a ship in the water that they can use now, not some promise of something 5 years away.

The RBU is fine as it is... they keep updating its munitions and it is a multi function system that can be kept in use, and Shtil can be upgraded based on the new land based BUK-M3 which is entering front line Army use now... the AK-630 is cheap and proven and would be fairly easy to upgrade with Duet, and they have taken the time to develop replacements for those Ukrainian gas turbines which they can impliment during an overhaul some time in the future when they need to.

The western saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush effectively means they have some and could easily and fairly quickly produce a couple more if they decide they want some. Not every ship in their fleet needs to be a death star, and there are plenty of upgrade options available for these ships.

Not suggesting they should make thousands of them, but not every fleet needs something better (more expensive to buy and operate).

Propably a new version in the pipeline.

Hole wrote:https://i.servimg.com/u/f10/19/89/13/22/20386_10.jpg
Propably a new version in the pipeline.

You beat me to the punch

Looks like I might have been right when I said that first hull is basically a testing platform for new CODAG propulsion, modular interior and stealth hull hence only a basic armament setup and off-the-shelf sonar

This here is most likely proper version they will be going for once all the new stuff is ironed out

CODAG plus electric no?

x_54_u43 wrote:CODAG plus electric no?

Wiki doesn't mention electric but it could be as well