The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

That video... yeah, I don't know what to say. How did that city go from this:



(I'm still angry that no one took a car and ran those fucks over)

and



to that video FP posted?

I can see some signs of disgust in people's eyes when they are prompted to respond to "Slava Usraine" though.

Neutrality wrote:That video... yeah, I don't know what to say. How did that city go from this:



(I'm still angry that no one took a car and ran those fucks over)

and



to that video FP posted?

I can see some signs of disgust in people's eyes when they are prompted to respond to "Slava Usraine" though.

They were infected and assimilated.

Or rather it's the result of living under a Stalinist system.

But it can't be helped. We tried to warn them. They should have rebelled when they had the chance (this goes for Odessa and other cities not so much Mariupol). Now they're part of them

Well, I was going to post the video of Victory Day in Odessa 2012 and also of the concert by Oleg Gazmanov on the same day in Kharkov, with huge numbers at both events, possibly million+ in Kharkov.

I agree on why Putin liberated Crimea, but I think that he then decided to cling onto Crimea and not risk further action, knowing that the west would eventually see the realpolitik and stop shouting about Crimea, which to a large extent is what has happened. That there was no intervention in Donbass is, to me, because he did not want to create more of a storm and nothing about "will of the people" or not, etc, and the referendums in 90s showed majority in Donbass wanted to be in Russia don't forget. There is still the issue of the advance to the borders by the Army and the expectations this caused. There was no possibility of any Ukrainian invasion of Russia, 0%, so what were the movements for, what result was expected. If it was to make people think intervention was to happen, then it really needed tanks rolling over the border, but nothing. Putin should have either intervened or done nothing, instead we had ambiguity of intent, and in the situation as it was, that was a death blow to rebels outside of Donetsk and Lugansk. I will also have the opinion that intervention should have occured in 2014, and while the screams from the west would have been louder, I believe the situation would not be significantly worse as regards foreign relations as it is now. But what we have is the makings of a long drawn out nightmare, principaly for the people, but also something for the west to keep beating Russia about, like the total nonsense of the other frozen conflicts. What is to happen, 25 years of this crap in Donbass and by then 50 years in PMR and South Caucasus? Better some sharp pain in one go that this long drawn out misery.

Also, an element of sort of arrogance at state level. Ukraine can not and will not be allowed to be an American colony, despite the will of any of "the people". In all history where have been the real "Will of the people", nowhere except in the rhetoric of those with real control, always a minority. As above, solve this now, or twenty five years or fifty years, what is better.

As for you saying "The people have made their choice", no they have not, they have been led and browbeaten. History has shown countless times that the small minority, determined and armed, will always control the majority. Did Bonaparte crown himself emperor by the "Will of the people", or military coup. Did the Bolsheviks seize power by the "Will of the people" or essentially military coup. All the Life Guard regiments in Petrograd full of new, and Bolshevik inspired, recruits, many front units infiltrated. No "People" involved, only the minority with guns and a purpose, just as in Kiev controlled Ukraine now.

Neutrality wrote:Odessa was discussed plenty of times in 2014 after what happened. I'm not taking any sides here but flamming_python is mostly right about Odessa in general. People were tortured and burned alive in that building yet no real anti-Maidan force responded/retaliated in a proper manner. The biggest paradox of all is that the Odessa massacre is the sole reason for Donetsk's and Lugansk's uprising, yet the same didn't happen in Odessa. Why is that? Because either no one there is willing to fight Kiev or there is no real anti-Maidan movement left.

With that having said some people here want the Russian army (or something alike) to liberate them? And face an anti-Russian atmosphere in the city? Leave the armchair-general-attitude behind and start thinking clearly I'd say. The difference between Donetsk/Lugansk and Odessa is that the people in the first mentioned cities were willing to fight against what they saw as oppression. So again, as I mentioned before, the uprising in Odessa failed because there was no substantial force to fight against Kiev. Obviously I want the situation there to change just as much as you do but it won't happen soon. Maybe Odessitans will realize how catastrophic the new "reforms" are and Kiev's unwillingness or incompetence to better the economic situation in the country. Perhaps then they will demand more self-rule (which will obviously anger the forces in Kiev). Understand that the authoritarian measures currently in place are also Kiev's weakness. They will try to silence any dissident forces in Odessa through the SBU first. When that proves to be insufficient they'll bring in the National Guard or the army which will infuriate the people even more.

IIRC Roman Alymov stated that the lack of weapons in Odessa (and Kharkov) was a decisive factor that prevented a successful uprising there.
I agree with him.
There won't be an uprising in the future either.
Infuriated people will just leave the country 404 for good instead of risking their lives against a bunch of armed nazis.

Thanks for the video Python. I had not seen that one.
Just as I expected, people are so unhappy about the occupation they are under. Given the chance, they will tear the Ukrop flag...

I am certain the same feeling is pretty much predominant in the rest of Novorossya.

And that gives me idea.

I request the members here to provide their personal opinion about the current prevailing anti-meydan (pro-Russia) sentiment across the various Novorossiya regions:

Here is my estimate (opinion):

Donetsk : 85 - 95 %
Lugansk : 85 - 95 %
Kharkov : 70 -75%
Odessa : 60 - 70 %
Zaporozhie : 60 - 70 %
Dnepropetrovsk: 50 - 60 %
Kherson : 50 -60 %
Nikolaev : 50 - 60 %

Some pockets in Sumi, Poltava and Chernigov regions are above 50% but overall these regions are below 50%.
Kiev is probably 30 - 35 %
In Galicia and other western Ukraine regions: no more than 10 -20 %

I also have a feeling that due to economic hardship, rampant corruption and worsening living standards, disenchantment with Meydan is growing. So, I expect that all the above numbers will grow with time.

I would generally agree with that, except that in Transacarpathia I would put anti maidan figures higher by perhaps another 15% or more, but that is more gut feeling than evidence.

Improved infrastructure, public servicing,  public transportation, education and higher wages in Crimea will eventually show the regular Ukrainian citizen the difference between the "future" they chose and the future Crimea chose. This is ultimately Moscow's goal IMHO. If successful, no military interventions will be needed. It's better to have Ukrainian citizens look your way instead of bringing in the army and "liberate" them.

TheArmenian wrote:Thanks for the video Python. I had not seen that one.
Just as I expected, people are so unhappy about the occupation they are under. Given the chance, they will tear the Ukrop flag...

Hah hah hah haha
ahah hah hah hah  
Armenian, my friend - you're too much.
Or did you watch a different video?

Shellings and other events from this week:

- By dawn of Monday (5th of December):

Overnight, 1084 shells were fired at the western outskirts of Donetsk and the village of Aleksandrovka. 40 houses at Aleksandrovka were lett without electricity.

Later on the same day, even more shells were fired at the villages of Yasinovataya, Vesyoloye, Kominternovo, Leninskoye, Dzerzhinskoye, Sakhanka, Elenovka and Dokuchayevsk. The number of shelling totalled at 1342 (including 30 152mm and 122mm artillery shells, 541 mortar mines and 10 tank rounds) (Reported by Eduard Basurin)

Also on Monday, 30 120mm mines hit the Donetsk airport and the village of Zabichevo.

Sources:
http://novorossia.today/record-amount-of-violations-by-kiev-for-the-last-24-hours/
http://novorossia.today/today-even-more-shelling-y-ukrainian-military-units-2/
http://novorossia.today/ukrainian-armed-forces-launched-30-mines-at-northern-suburb-of-donetsk/

- Tuesday (6th of December):

The villages mentioned above were shelled again. Reportedtly, 70 mines were launched from heavy (120mm) mortars.

Sources:
http://novorossia.today/military-sitrep-of-the-dpr-2military-sitrep-of-the-dpr-2/
http://novorossia.today/southern-village-more-than-an-hour-under-the-shelling-off-ukrainian-side/

- Wednesday (7th of December):

Ukrainian artillery hit a 3-storey panel building at a housing estate in the town of Dokuchayevsk. A gas line has been also damaged there, leaving the flats without heating. Reported by Aleksandr Kachanov, head of local administration.

Source: http://novorossia.today/ukrainian-criminals-damaged-by-the-shelling-3-block-of-flats-and-gas-line-in-dokuchaevsk/

On the same day, a water filtration station in Donetsk has stopped working, leaving the villagey Vernetoretskoye and Krasniy Partizan without water.

Source: http://novorossia.today/donetsk-filtration-station-stopped-working-againdonetsk-filtration-station-stopped-working-again/

- Thursday (8th of December):

Further shellings damaged a coking plant, which caught fire later. The bombardments also damaged 13 houses in the Kuybishevskiy district of Donetsk. The ukrainians used 122mm howitzers. 2 civilians were wounded.

Sources:
http://novorossia.today/coking-plant-inflamed-as-a-result-of-shelling-by-ukrainian-side/
http://novorossia.today/at-least-13-houses-damaged-in-the-kuibishevskiy-district-of-donetsk/
http://novorossia.today/ukrainian-aggression-flowed-in-donetsk-again-military-sitrep/

Some more peaceful news. Greek antifascists, brought ground to the grave of the fallen Novorossiyan hero Arsen Pavlov, known as "Motorola", former commander of the Sparta Battalion.

Source: http://novorossia.today/antifascists-of-greece-brought-ground-to-the-grave-of-the-defender-motorolaantifascists-of-greece-brought-ground-to-the-grave-of-the-defender-motorola/

- Friday (9th of December):

106 more 152mm shells and mortar mines were fired at the Kuybishevskiy district of Donetsk. It is reported that the shells were launched from the village of Peski, occupied by Ukrainian troops. Basurin reported that it is possible that troops of the ukrainian 128th Brigade were the ones who carried out the bombardments.

Sources:
http://novorossia.today/ukrainian-military-units-do-not-stop-carry-out-artillery-shelling-at-the-dpr/
http://novorossia.today/shelling-of-the-kuibishevskiy-district-of-donetsk-was-from-occupied-by-ukraine-village-peski/

Today, a shootout was occured at a military base near Kherson. Three Ukrainian soldiers were hospitalized.

Source: http://novorossia.today/153084-2/

flamming_python wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Thanks for the video Python. I had not seen that one.
Just as I expected, people are so unhappy about the occupation they are under. Given the chance, they will tear the Ukrop flag...

Hah hah hah haha
ahah hah hah hah  
Armenian, my friend - you're too much.
Or did you watch a different video?

This is the video you posted:



I think you have not watched it carefully.
The video is made by Novorossiya supporters to demonstrate that the Majority of Mariopol resident are unhappy about the ukrop/fascist/Nazi occupation.

Watch the facial expressions and other non-verbal communication (body language, posture etc.). They show more than apathy, they show disdain and resentment plus much more.

Almost every person is answering with 0% excitement, they are saying "Geroyem Slava" because they have to, otherwise they may be in trouble.
It is like they are saying "here is your answer, and now f*ck off".

TheArmenian wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Thanks for the video Python. I had not seen that one.
Just as I expected, people are so unhappy about the occupation they are under. Given the chance, they will tear the Ukrop flag...

Hah hah hah haha
ahah hah hah hah  
Armenian, my friend - you're too much.
Or did you watch a different video?

This is the video you posted:



I think you have not watched it carefully.
The video is made by Novorossiya supporters to demonstrate that the Majority of Mariopol resident are unhappy about the ukrop/fascist/Nazi occupation.

Watch the facial expressions and other non-verbal communication (body language, posture etc.). They show more than apathy, they show disdain and resentment plus much more.

Almost every person is answering with 0% excitement, they are saying "Geroyem Slava" because they have to, otherwise they may be in trouble.
It is like they are saying "here is your answer, and now f*ck off".

You know what I would do to demonstrate my unhappiness? Punch that guy in the face.
Of course I can understand that under a Stalinist dictatorship like the Ukraine you could promptly end up being interrogated by the SBU for something like that. Honestly, the regime regards the population here as 'sovoks' and really doesn't expect much of them, much less to parrot their slogans - so I don't think it will bother addressing every minor incident; the locals are potential traitorous elements and Kiev doesn't expect much of them either way.
But fair enough, it's a reasonable fear to have - but nothing will happen if you fail to repeat the standard 'Heil Hitler!' address as nothing typically happened even if you failed to repeat it in Nazi Germany I'd wager.

So why bother replying then?

All I see here is on the one hand - a bunch of happy-looking, cheerful people from different walks of life, who gleefully repeat the fascist-era slogan expressing admiration for Nazi murderers during WW2.
On the other hand, I see people that seem mostly preoccupied about their business and with little time to entertain the inquisitions of passers-by - but who nevertheless, do not neglect to repeat the Nazi slogan back in its full intonation - yes maybe not at the loudest volume, but like I said, they're busy and don't want to be bothered. If the slogan itself was what was bothering them - then they wouldn't have repeated it.
As the remaining 3rd of the respondents didn't - so kudos to them - although half of those attempted to soften the blow for the little Banderite by repeating 'Slava' in return to his phrase 'Slava Ukrainy'. Not the correct response of course; but effectively they are still repeating the word 'Glory' to the beginning of the Nazi slogan - 'Glory to the Ukraine' - which would still very much be taken as an afront by any veteran of the Red Army or anyone who had suffered from Bandera's or other fascist crimes (i.e. their grandfathers and grandmothers)

Really the correct response to the challenge thrown by the cameraman - is to strike him down where he stands, such that he is dead before his carcass even hits the floor. In return for all the murders, disapperances and injustices his people had suffered at the hands of the Ukrainian Army for 2.5 years. Would have liked to see that. Someone with some balls and nothing to lose. Why is it that there are more than a few full-on traitors on this video but none from the other end of the scale - men of courage?

And if this is Mariupol then one can only imagine Odessa. And one can only imagine about imagining Kiev.
And why do people want us to send our boys to their potential deaths for the sake of these cities?

F-Python,

Different people different react in different ways.
Do not expect a majority of people to react the same way you would.

In any case, I would be interested in seeing your personal opinion about the question I asked earlier about anti-Meydan (pro-Russian) sentiment percentages in various Novorossiya regions.

ian bremmer ‏@ianbremmer 2h2 hours ago
Breaking: Trump's choice for SecState: Rex Tillerson.
Has best personal relationship with Putin of any American. Big big changes coming.

ian bremmer ‏@ianbremmer 2h2 hours ago
So long, Ukraine.
Was fun while it lasted.

I'm curious to see how it all shakes out.

I'd have loved to see Poroshenko's face when he heard about the news. Must've been pure agony. All the support they had in Washington was basically nullified in less than a month.

Neutrality wrote:I'd have loved to see Poroshenko's face when he heard about the news. Must've been pure agony. All the support they had in Washington was basically nullified in less than a month.

Yes. I'm thinking the rats in Ukraine will be running!

No more toys for neo nazi boys. & I pray no more shelling civilians in Eastern Ukraine.

Ukraine is a failed state. English subs

I LOVE this woman! Telling it like it is!


Ukraine is a Failed State [Eng Sub]


Ukrainian lawyer Tatyana Montyan in the European Parliament
5 December 2016

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c2b_1481361497

flamming_python wrote:Or did you watch a different video?

We all watched the same video. It's just that you're bad at understanding body language and interpreting the substance of an on-camera reaction to a slogan imposed by an occupying force. Also younger demographics tend to respond to slogans their school system's teach them.

As for Odessa vs. Donbass, there is one thing you are forgetting. Donbass is bordered by Russia while Odessa is far and away from Russia. Russia had a much easier time supporting the Donbass rebels (and in fact starting a rebellion in Donbass) than it would have had in Odessa.

Without Russian assistance the rebellion in Donbass would have been crushed by Kiev. And Russia would have been in no position to help a similar rebellion on Odessa.

Karl Haushofer wrote:As for Odessa vs. Donbass, there is one thing you are forgetting. Donbass is bordered by Russia while Odessa is far and away from Russia. Russia had a much easier time supporting the Donbass rebels (and in fact starting a rebellion in Donbass) than it would have had in Odessa.

Without Russian assistance the rebellion in Donbass would have been crushed by Kiev. And Russia would have been in no position to help a similar rebellion on Odessa.

Kharkov shares a large border with Russia too. I don't think that's a legitimate argument.

Neutrality wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:As for Odessa vs. Donbass, there is one thing you are forgetting. Donbass is bordered by Russia while Odessa is far and away from Russia. Russia had a much easier time supporting the Donbass rebels (and in fact starting a rebellion in Donbass) than it would have had in Odessa.

Without Russian assistance the rebellion in Donbass would have been crushed by Kiev. And Russia would have been in no position to help a similar rebellion on Odessa.

Kharkov shares a large border with Russia too. I don't think that's a legitimate argument.

True, didn't think about Kharkov too much.

But I still think that Kiev would have eventually crushed any armed uprising in Odessa because Russia would not have been able to help Odessa without direct military intervention.

kvs wrote:India and Pakistan used to be one united entity but got separated by the British.   Now they are two utterly distinct entities.
That people got along at the individual level, like in Yugoslavia, does not guarantee national level integrity.   The majority
of Ukrainians in 2013 were in an EU thrall including most of the "novorussians".   They only cared about their material well
being and not some brotherhood of the peoples BS or even basic ethnic identity.   Especially bad was that their children were
effectively brainwashed into Banderite drones.   The old generation that remembers the pre-1991 era is on its way out.   The
new generation of EU-tards and Benderatards is ascending.

Russia must not involve itself in restoring anything associated with Banderastan.   It's too bad, but that is the cold, cruel reality.
The best thing that can happen if Banderastan does collapse into a 3rd world toilet.   That might wake up some of its population
and neutralize the Banderites.   But we'll have to wait and see.

they already had been turned into a third world shit hole, far worse than it was in 2013. What makes it even more pathetic is the fact the Banderites have been proven to not only be grossly incompetent, but even far more corrupt and sinister than Yanukovich. But, people instead put their heads in the sand and or sing thinking it will change anything. Sorry, but they have to rise up and fight or end up perishing while singing.

So I agree with both KVS and Flaming Python, in that Ukraine is lost. Russia must learn from this mistake so that in future it doesn't happen to more Russian states (Tatarstan, Chechnya, Siberia, etc) and just contain Ukraine and let it be a battleground.  I think where Russia went wrong was recognizing Ukraine as a sovereign state to begin with. If they didn't and absorbed parts of it after USSR breakup, then it wouldn't have happened. But instead, they allowed it to be its own and allowed the western part (Polish) foster this hatred into rest of Ukraine, that it is what it is now. Russia is avoiding this by increasing patriotism in far east and south so that it will not spread to Russia.

But help Novorussia. At least those people are trying to maintain some kind of normality.

I agree with mike, Ukraine (or parts of it) needs to be re absorbed into Russia, people are just humans, if the can be brainwashed into being banderanites, then surely they can be brainwashed to be russophiles again. meanwhile, EU must to brought to its knees economically, as long as people see EU as a rich high income entity, it will continue to be looked up upon and admired, but when they see EU collapsing with lots of people in poverty, then people will tend to look somewhere else, Russia could snatch this opportunity to be the new role model people want to be, this will turn the feelings of the people in former ussr countries towards Russia and make the re absorption of these countries into Russia more easy.

You two are forgetting something. The fact that Russia has an economy to run is that fact. If Russia just simply stops selling gas to EU or puts pressure on them, then it puts pressure on Russia's own citizens and businesses which could lead to an actual revolt or at least displeasure. Russia is going the third route that we didn't know existed - Winning the hearts and minds. In order to do so, they need to have jobs for their own people, money flowing, trade going and getting the idiot masses who cannot think for themselves beyond what TV and advertisements tells them, to be happy. In order for them to be happy is through consumption. And so in this case, they still demand for the european and other crap goods because they are good goy's and do whatever the media jew tells them. So Russia is playing at that game. While at the same time, obtaining foreign businesses and investments because as we all know (dating back to world war 2) even the Nazi's had foreign companies like Coke and IBM operate in the country regardless of sanctions. Russia is a prime market right now and many businesses are going to grab it. With Russia not making it obvious of their involvement in Ukraine, many business people really don't give two hecks about the sanctions and are investing in Russia. Doing so, keeps the people at home happy. All the while, they are making their plans and making the needed adjustments. They wont cut gas supplies to Europe anytime soon, not at least till the Nord 2 Stream is ready, Turk Stream, Power of Siberia and the LNG plants are ready. Then Russia can and will turn around and start making demands.

As well, they are waiting to see the leaderships upcoming from France, Germany and Italy. Things may change. Already EU is collapsing on its own.