PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

LMFS wrote:

Isos wrote:First contract for su-57 signed by russian air force.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201806301065909032-russian-military-purchase-steaqlth-fighters-su57/

Great, but has it been already signed or just agreed? Not clear after reading the same piece of news in Sputnik, RIA and RT

Militarov wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:

Militarov wrote:[img]https://i.img

S-duct looks like this. There are also photos of AMCA S-duct casted mockups.

Its just different approach to the problem, there are reasons for and aganist both solutions, its the tradeoff.

Who the hell are you to declare that the S duct setup is better for stealth than the podded engines/offset intake with true blend wing design ?  

And who are you

Oh wait... i dont care actually  

I never claimed anything of a sort, you should learn to read.

LMFS wrote:

Isos wrote:First contract for su-57 signed by russian air force.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201806301065909032-russian-military-purchase-steaqlth-fighters-su57/

Great, but has it been already signed or just agreed? Not clear after reading the same piece of news in Sputnik, RIA and RT

eridan wrote:

LMFS wrote:

Isos wrote:First contract for su-57 signed by russian air force.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201806301065909032-russian-military-purchase-steaqlth-fighters-su57/

Great, but has it been already signed or just agreed? Not clear after reading the same piece of news in Sputnik, RIA and RT

https://lenta.ru/news/2018/06/30/su57/

This reads as pretty definite, if they claim deputy defense minister said "the contract was signed"

I wonder what are the chances of money figure being released to public anytime soon, though.

kvs wrote:

Bugger off NATO fanboi troll.   The US PBS network had documentaries on the F-117 which clearly described how stealth development in
the USA was motivated the 1960s Soviet manual on the subject.  

A documentary by the History Channel:



Of course Americans cannot help themselves and make all sorts of claims about how the Soviets ignored this panacea.   Anyone
with competence in this field would see the need to improve on the 1950s radars that America assumed would be the worldwide
norm forever.  (This just confirms that stealth was a project aimed a bossing around 3rd world countries).  

The F-117A sacrificed vital control for primitive stealth "solutions".   It was a widow maker that would have never outclassed
air force elements fielded by the USSR.   Only NATO fanboi morons think Russians are too stupid to understand technology.

kvs wrote:These "stealth" "experts" are all spewing pure BS.    None of the "debunking" of the Su-57 stealth characteristics that I have seen
are worth the time of day.    Most of these morons think that scattering surfaces need to be regular geometric shapes and cannot
process the contoured surfaces of the Su-57.   Yet for some reason these morons fail to note the vast surface area difference
between the Su-57 rudders and the F-22 billboard sized rudders.    Jets do not fly at only one aspect angle to their target or in
reference to radar systems.   Having billboard sized rudders is a major drawback.    

Also, none of these morons know that scattering surfaces only work 100% in classical geometric optics and not in real world physics.
Quantum mechanics dictates that some fraction of the incoming radar beam will scatter back to it regardless of the angle of the
scattering surface.   This is specifically true for a RAM coated surface which is an absorber that re-emits the incident radiation in
multiple wavelength bands, including ones close to the spectrum of the incident radar beam.

At the end of the day, the ball is fully in the radar system court.   Modern gallium nitride amplifiers and broad-spectrum detection
beams and receivers defeat all of the 1960s and 1970s stealth efforts.    The original reason for "stealth" was that radars were
primitive in the 1950s and 1960s.   They used only one or a few scanning frequencies and had little ability to detect weak back-scatter
signals.   Today, with vastly more sensitive receivers and radar system networking, "stealth" is a fanboi wank fest delusion more than
a serious technological advantage.    In any case, it would have been a technological advantage over 3rd world countries and not
scientific and technological powerhouses like Russia.

In a reminder of what the Indian Air Force (IAF) is missing, the Russian Air Force (RAF) has placed its first order of the Sukhoi-57, the Russian fifth-generation fighter that New Delhi recently decided not to co-develop and co-manufacture with Sukhoi.

“The first contract for 12 [Sukhoi-57] aircraft will be signed soon, and the deliveries under this contract will begin shortly,” said Russian Deputy Defence Minister Alexey Krivoruchko on Saturday, according to Russia’s Sputnik News. The minister was visiting Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Sukhoi’s biggest plant that will build the Sukhoi-57.

The first batch of Sukhoi-57s will enter service in 2019, stated Yuri Slyusar, chief of Russia’s umbrella United Aircraft Corporation, under which Sukhoi operates.

As Business Standard first reported (April 20, $8.63-billion advanced fighter aircraft project with Russia put on ice), National Security Advisor Ajit Doval told Russian officials in February that Russia could proceed alone in developing the Sukhoi-57, or Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), as its proposed Indian version was called. Doval said India might join the project later, or buy the Sukhoi-57 after it entered service in Russia.

The RAF plans to field about 200 Sukhoi-57s, while the IAF was planning to build 127 FGFAs in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which would also co-develop the Indo-Russian fighter with Sukhoi. But, in a turnaround last year, the IAF said the Sukhoi-57 lacked in key attributes like stealth, active scanning radar and the ability to super-cruise – or fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners.

Russian pilots and officials hotly contest this. The further argue that the Sukhoi-57 is currently flying with an interim engine, the NPO Saturn AL-41F1 turbofan, while Russian engine maker, NPO Saturn, develops the more powerful “Izdeliye 30” engine, which is expected to be ready by 2020.

The Sukhoi-57’s prototype, called Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii (PAK-FA) first flew in January 2010. Since then, even as New Delhi and Moscow engaged in protracted negotations, Sukhoi took the aircraft – there are currently at least 11 prototypes – through an extended flight-test programme.

Now the Russian order indicates the RAF – a demanding customer – is satisfied with the Sukhoi-57’s performance.

For India, the FGFA project was economical, if anything. HAL was to pay a half share – amounting to $4.3 billion (Rs 30,000 crore) – for 50 specified improvements to the Sukhoi-57 to meet IAF requirements of greater stealth, faster data networks and 360-degree radar. This included the cost of four Sukhoi-57 prototypes for the IAF to test-fly and the setting up of facilities to manufacture the FGFA in India.

With each Sukhoi-57 production fighter estimated to cost $70 million (the Sukhoi-30MKIs that the IAF bought from Russia cost just $43 million each), the cost of each FGFA – including the $4.3 billion development cost amortised over the 127 fighters that HAL would build – would have amounted to $113 million each.

The IAF would have obtained a fifth-generation, built-in-India fighter at a far cheaper price than the made-in-France Rafale, for which India is paying $162 apiece, plus the additional cost of maintenance, spares and weapons.

Another argument in favour of the FGFA was that co-developing the fighter with Russia would feed into the ongoing Indian development of a fifth-generation Advanced Medium Fighter Aircraft (AMCA).

After the IAF argued that the FGFA would duplicate the AMCA project, an expert committee was set up under Air Marshal S Varthaman (Retired) to consider this. In July 2017, the committee ruled out any conflict between the FGFA and AMCA.


Officials have hinted that New Delhi dropped out of the FGFA project at Washington’s nudging. Yet, Russia-related pressure continues, with new American legislation – “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA) – threatening sanctions for buying weaponry from Russia, especially the S-400 air defence system that Moscow and New Delhi have signed an agreement for.

miketheterrible wrote:Except for while GaN is made in Russia and being set for mass production - as I posted in another thread regarding its use for 5G network technology using GaN, there is little in knowledge if it will be used in the Radar or not instead of NPO ISTOK's GaAS T/R Modules.

In reality, even with older radar systems, passive systems are used to detect stealth.  After the stealth aircraft let off their radar signals, it will be picked up by Su-30's or Su-35's passive sensors and direct them to the target.  Other systems like the FLIR would be used too to detect stealth at longer ranges.

Then there is the idea that it is nowhere as stealthy as claimed and the raw power of PESA radar systems would be more than enough to detect the stealth jets at long ranges.  Add to that, even if it is GaN or GaAS modules, in the end, its all about the total power output used.

Austin wrote:After India opts out, Russia orders fifth-gen Sukhoi-57 fighters

FGFA would have cost the IAF $113 million each, compared to Rafale’s $162 million

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 1st July 18

In a reminder of what the Indian Air Force (IAF) is missing, the Russian Air Force (RAF) has placed its first order of the Sukhoi-57, the Russian fifth-generation fighter that New Delhi recently decided not to co-develop and co-manufacture with Sukhoi.

“The first contract for 12 [Sukhoi-57] aircraft will be signed soon, and the deliveries under this contract will begin shortly,” said Russian Deputy Defence Minister Alexey Krivoruchko on Saturday, according to Russia’s Sputnik News. The minister was visiting Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Sukhoi’s biggest plant that will build the Sukhoi-57.

The first batch of Sukhoi-57s will enter service in 2019, stated Yuri Slyusar, chief of Russia’s umbrella United Aircraft Corporation, under which Sukhoi operates.

As Business Standard first reported (April 20, $8.63-billion advanced fighter aircraft project with Russia put on ice), National Security Advisor Ajit Doval told Russian officials in February that Russia could proceed alone in developing the Sukhoi-57, or Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), as its proposed Indian version was called. Doval said India might join the project later, or buy the Sukhoi-57 after it entered service in Russia.

The RAF plans to field about 200 Sukhoi-57s, while the IAF was planning to build 127 FGFAs in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which would also co-develop the Indo-Russian fighter with Sukhoi. But, in a turnaround last year, the IAF said the Sukhoi-57 lacked in key attributes like stealth, active scanning radar and the ability to super-cruise – or fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners.

Russian pilots and officials hotly contest this. The further argue that the Sukhoi-57 is currently flying with an interim engine, the NPO Saturn AL-41F1 turbofan, while Russian engine maker, NPO Saturn, develops the more powerful “Izdeliye 30” engine, which is expected to be ready by 2020.

The Sukhoi-57’s prototype, called Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii (PAK-FA) first flew in January 2010. Since then, even as New Delhi and Moscow engaged in protracted negotations, Sukhoi took the aircraft – there are currently at least 11 prototypes – through an extended flight-test programme.

Now the Russian order indicates the RAF – a demanding customer – is satisfied with the Sukhoi-57’s performance.

For India, the FGFA project was economical, if anything. HAL was to pay a half share – amounting to $4.3 billion (Rs 30,000 crore) – for 50 specified improvements to the Sukhoi-57 to meet IAF requirements of greater stealth, faster data networks and 360-degree radar. This included the cost of four Sukhoi-57 prototypes for the IAF to test-fly and the setting up of facilities to manufacture the FGFA in India.

With each Sukhoi-57 production fighter estimated to cost $70 million (the Sukhoi-30MKIs that the IAF bought from Russia cost just $43 million each), the cost of each FGFA – including the $4.3 billion development cost amortised over the 127 fighters that HAL would build – would have amounted to $113 million each.

The IAF would have obtained a fifth-generation, built-in-India fighter at a far cheaper price than the made-in-France Rafale, for which India is paying $162 apiece, plus the additional cost of maintenance, spares and weapons.

Another argument in favour of the FGFA was that co-developing the fighter with Russia would feed into the ongoing Indian development of a fifth-generation Advanced Medium Fighter Aircraft (AMCA).

After the IAF argued that the FGFA would duplicate the AMCA project, an expert committee was set up under Air Marshal S Varthaman (Retired) to consider this. In July 2017, the committee ruled out any conflict between the FGFA and AMCA.


Officials have hinted that New Delhi dropped out of the FGFA project at Washington’s nudging. Yet, Russia-related pressure continues, with new American legislation – “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA) – threatening sanctions for buying weaponry from Russia, especially the S-400 air defence system that Moscow and New Delhi have signed an agreement for.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Except for while GaN is made in Russia and being set for mass production - as I posted in another thread regarding its use for 5G network technology using GaN, there is little in knowledge if it will be used in the Radar or not instead of NPO ISTOK's GaAS T/R Modules.

In reality, even with older radar systems, passive systems are used to detect stealth.  After the stealth aircraft let off their radar signals, it will be picked up by Su-30's or Su-35's passive sensors and direct them to the target.  Other systems like the FLIR would be used too to detect stealth at longer ranges.

Then there is the idea that it is nowhere as stealthy as claimed and the raw power of PESA radar systems would be more than enough to detect the stealth jets at long ranges.  Add to that, even if it is GaN or GaAS modules, in the end, its all about the total power output used.

GaN is absolutely superior in durability, cost and power output so it should be an absolute priority to produce it. I dont understand why it isnt already mass produced.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Except for while GaN is made in Russia and being set for mass production - as I posted in another thread regarding its use for 5G network technology using GaN, there is little in knowledge if it will be used in the Radar or not instead of NPO ISTOK's GaAS T/R Modules.

In reality, even with older radar systems, passive systems are used to detect stealth.  After the stealth aircraft let off their radar signals, it will be picked up by Su-30's or Su-35's passive sensors and direct them to the target.  Other systems like the FLIR would be used too to detect stealth at longer ranges.

Then there is the idea that it is nowhere as stealthy as claimed and the raw power of PESA radar systems would be more than enough to detect the stealth jets at long ranges.  Add to that, even if it is GaN or GaAS modules, in the end, its all about the total power output used.

GaN is absolutely superior in durability, cost and power output so it should be an absolute priority to produce it. I dont understand why it isnt already mass produced.

Pierre Sprey wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Except for while GaN is made in Russia and being set for mass production - as I posted in another thread regarding its use for 5G network technology using GaN, there is little in knowledge if it will be used in the Radar or not instead of NPO ISTOK's GaAS T/R Modules.

In reality, even with older radar systems, passive systems are used to detect stealth.  After the stealth aircraft let off their radar signals, it will be picked up by Su-30's or Su-35's passive sensors and direct them to the target.  Other systems like the FLIR would be used too to detect stealth at longer ranges.

Then there is the idea that it is nowhere as stealthy as claimed and the raw power of PESA radar systems would be more than enough to detect the stealth jets at long ranges.  Add to that, even if it is GaN or GaAS modules, in the end, its all about the total power output used.

GaN is absolutely superior in durability, cost and power output so it should be an absolute priority to produce it. I dont understand why it isnt already mass produced.

Then the question should be asked to everyone why they don't have full production of GaN based radars? Some experimental on the side doesn't count.

miketheterrible wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Except for while GaN is made in Russia and being set for mass production - as I posted in another thread regarding its use for 5G network technology using GaN, there is little in knowledge if it will be used in the Radar or not instead of NPO ISTOK's GaAS T/R Modules.

In reality, even with older radar systems, passive systems are used to detect stealth.  After the stealth aircraft let off their radar signals, it will be picked up by Su-30's or Su-35's passive sensors and direct them to the target.  Other systems like the FLIR would be used too to detect stealth at longer ranges.

Then there is the idea that it is nowhere as stealthy as claimed and the raw power of PESA radar systems would be more than enough to detect the stealth jets at long ranges.  Add to that, even if it is GaN or GaAS modules, in the end, its all about the total power output used.

GaN is absolutely superior in durability, cost and power output so it should be an absolute priority to produce it. I dont understand why it isnt already mass produced.

Then the question should be asked to everyone why they don't have full production of GaN based radars? Some experimental on the side doesn't count.

Pierre Sprey wrote:

kvs wrote:These "stealth" "experts" are all spewing pure BS.    None of the "debunking" of the Su-57 stealth characteristics that I have seen
are worth the time of day.    Most of these morons think that scattering surfaces need to be regular geometric shapes and cannot
process the contoured surfaces of the Su-57.   Yet for some reason these morons fail to note the vast surface area difference
between the Su-57 rudders and the F-22 billboard sized rudders.    Jets do not fly at only one aspect angle to their target or in
reference to radar systems.   Having billboard sized rudders is a major drawback.    

Also, none of these morons know that scattering surfaces only work 100% in classical geometric optics and not in real world physics.
Quantum mechanics dictates that some fraction of the incoming radar beam will scatter back to it regardless of the angle of the
scattering surface.   This is specifically true for a RAM coated surface which is an absorber that re-emits the incident radiation in
multiple wavelength bands, including ones close to the spectrum of the incident radar beam.

At the end of the day, the ball is fully in the radar system court.   Modern gallium nitride amplifiers and broad-spectrum detection
beams and receivers defeat all of the 1960s and 1970s stealth efforts.    The original reason for "stealth" was that radars were
primitive in the 1950s and 1960s.   They used only one or a few scanning frequencies and had little ability to detect weak back-scatter
signals.   Today, with vastly more sensitive receivers and radar system networking, "stealth" is a fanboi wank fest delusion more than
a serious technological advantage.    In any case, it would have been a technological advantage over 3rd world countries and not
scientific and technological powerhouses like Russia.

Exactly. It has been nothing but cheap sophistry this whole time. There is nothing on the su 57 that compromises its stealth. They say that the back isn't stealthy enough. Well the back is going to look like the back of the F-35 when its done. Just 2 engines rather than one. Then the front. They say that the engine is visible. Well some engine face was visible on the YF-23 and X-32. I actually think that the su 57 is more stealthy than the US jets.

I wish we could all be classy and enjoy each others beautiful jets. But we cant. Because these mother-fers want to be poor sports about it. The Americans see the F-22 Raptor as their trophy for winning the cold war. So Russia cant have one. There are posters on the KeyPub forum who don't even post on other threads. They are dedicated to cooking up theories as to why the su 57 isn't stealth.

And even writers in the western defense media get in on this nonsense.

Yet they never attack the J-20 or FC-31. They have an axe to grind.

There is nothing on the su 57 that compromises its stealth. They say that the back isn't stealthy enough. Well the back is going to look like the back of the F-35 when its done.

Isos wrote:First contract for su-57 signed by russian air force.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201806301065909032-russian-military-purchase-steaqlth-fighters-su57/

LMFS wrote:

Militarov wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Except for while GaN is made in Russia and being set for mass production - as I posted in another thread regarding its use for 5G network technology using GaN, there is little in knowledge if it will be used in the Radar or not instead of NPO ISTOK's GaAS T/R Modules.

In reality, even with older radar systems, passive systems are used to detect stealth.  After the stealth aircraft let off their radar signals, it will be picked up by Su-30's or Su-35's passive sensors and direct them to the target.  Other systems like the FLIR would be used too to detect stealth at longer ranges.

Then there is the idea that it is nowhere as stealthy as claimed and the raw power of PESA radar systems would be more than enough to detect the stealth jets at long ranges.  Add to that, even if it is GaN or GaAS modules, in the end, its all about the total power output used.

GaN is absolutely superior in durability, cost and power output so it should be an absolute priority to produce it. I dont understand why it isnt already mass produced.

Then the question should be asked to everyone why they don't have full production of GaN based radars? Some experimental on the side doesn't count.

I think people are overlooking the challenges of such production. And at this point in time cost. Cost effective once the production peaks and when you have same modules used across multiple platforms, yes. But at the start its extremly expencive.

I know GaN has superior properties, but why all this fuss? is there even a single fighter radar that uses it at the moment? Substituting materials in electronics is a huge technological step that takes decades, let's not rush events