Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

Firebird wrote:Russia's been very clear about having less classes, more ships per class.
There's only 2 operational and 2 in reserve/conservation.

I think it would be pretty bizarre to scrap the hulls. After all, Russia's lterm plans are SIX new carriers plus the Kuznetsov. So you'd need/use one for each carrier.. atleast. PLus Kirovs can travel around the World independently. One for the Pacific, one for the Middle East, one for the Arctic, one for the Atlantic/anywhere worldwide. MINIMUM. Additionally, one is like to be in refurb at any given time.
Its certainly not like they wont find them useful. And such ships have immeasuble importance in terms of prestige and difficulty in replacing.

The new nuclear-destroyer class, when its introduced, will be able to do all the same things as the Kirovs but will be much smaller vessels, with more automation and less crew. They will be able to travel around the world independently just as long, and have pretty much the same level of firepower.

They will have less space for missiles, and they won't have as high radar masts but they will also be newer ships and in other ways superior to the Kirovs in hull and capabilities; for example they could well be fitted with the big S-400 missiles or the S-500s; and their radar cross-sections would be considerably smaller.

IMO if the Kirov class will not have at least S-400s.. with decent range defenses , they should not bother with it..
and save the money..for a brand new state of the art destroyer or 2-3 new Gorhkov Frigates.  Or an Extra Yasen Class Submarine. etc.


When you look for example at what the competition have..
Japan alone have 45 destroyers and 16 submarines ,enough to wipe Russian navy again as they did about the end of Tsar Empire in the past.. in a conventional war.. And then you have US navy which also will have a similar force in that part of the world too.

Russia will depend of nukes for everything.. to defend their navy.. because conventionally will not have the power
to stop a major offensive in the pacific of US and Japan.

Ill take any day 2-3 frigates with s-400s and kalibr missiles over a Kirov class.. but old defenses and very costly to  operate for the big amount of crew required to operated it.. How many crew are required to operate a kirov class?
1,000 people? 2,000?  I do not see the cost effective performance  of a kirov class  if not armed if they do not armed
with modern weapons.

Vann7 wrote:IMO if the Kirov class will not have at least S-400s.. with decent range defenses , they should not bother with it..
and save the money..for a brand new state of the art destroyer or 2-3 new Gorhkov Frigates.  Or an Extra Yasen Class Submarine. etc.


When you look for example at what the competition have..
Japan alone have 45 destroyers and 16 submarines ,enough to wipe Russian navy again as they did about the end of Tsar Empire in the past.. in a conventional war.. And then you have US navy which also will have a similar force in that part of the world too.

Russia will depend of nukes for everything.. to defend their navy.. because conventionally will not have the power
to stop a major offensive in the pacific of US and Japan.

Ill take any day 2-3 frigates with s-400s and kalibr missiles over a Kirov class.. but old defenses and very costly to  operate for the big amount of crew required to operated it.. How many crew are required to operate a kirov class?
1,000 people? 2,000?  I do not see the cost effective performance  of a kirov class  if not armed if they do not armed
with modern weapons.

They certainly don't have 45 destroyers... It's closer to 10, and many of their "destroyers" are frigate-sized. (Still one the strongest navies in the world, ofc.)

"99% certainty they are goners. Lazarev might serve as donor vessel for Nakhmiov once it gets transported to the North."

Adm. Lazarev wont donor anyone. and it will surely not be transported to the north....

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it will be put into the same program which Adm. Nakhimov is currently undergoing - at the far east:

http://svpressa.ru/war21/article/108052/

by 2018, Peter the Great will replace Nakhimov at the svezdochka plant in severodvinsk to undergo the same program.

A paint of coat to make sure it doesn't get any worse for now doesn't mean anything.

Show me some credible evidence any shipyard is taking up a state order related to Lazarev.
No one in the Far East can even take care of the ship.

It does look dubious if it will be going north or not- but there is nothing to suggest it is going to be modernized.

There is absolutely nothing minor about the scale of work being undertaken @ Sevmash on Nakhimov.

I also find it very dubious that they will pay for one major expensive upgrade, then sometime down the line go for yet another round, that will require yet more substantial reconstruction on a ship that has not gotten any younger.

I think the obvious conclusion is Redut-Poliment reconstruction costs too much and would need serious superstructure reconstruction. Time and money are both serious issues, especially right now.

Peter the Great is being modernizd later, who knows it might get a naval S-400 variant. But all evidence points that S-300FM is as far as we are getting with Nakhimov. However S-300FM+ Pantsir is a pretty solid combo as is.
It is only the people expecting the 1144s to become mega battle-star destroyers with top of the line everythign who are disappointed- I am actually quite happy the reconstruction is going to be fairly limited. Means they might only miss the deadline by a year or two .

TR1 wrote:A paint of coat to make sure it doesn't get any worse for now doesn't mean anything. Show me some credible evidence any shipyard is taking up a state order related to Lazarev.

"No one in the Far East can even take care of the ship."

You are wrong:

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[...] И чтобы понять ход адмиральских мыслей, думается, стоит взглянуть на перспективы судоремонтного комплекса «Звезда», основные мощности которого расположены в Большом Камне. На нашем Дальнем Востоке это единственное предприятие, занимающееся утилизацией, ремонтом и модернизацией атомных подводных лодок. Для этой цели «Звезда» имеет все необходимое. Но – лишь для плавучих сооружений, доковый вес которых не превышает 13500 тонн. Для такого исполина как «Адмирал Лазарев» маловато будет.

Однако дело в том, что с 2009 года этот судоремонтный комплекс усиленно модернизируют. Глобальный проект предусматривает, что через несколько лет со стапелей «Звезды» станут сходить даже супертанкеры водоизмещением до 350 000 тонн (то есть в 12 раз больше, чем у наших ТАРКРов). А кроме того - гигантские газовозы, суда ледового класса, специальные суда спусковым весом до 29 000 тонн. Для этого в Большом Камне к 2018 году предусмотрено построить два крупнейших сухих дока. Вот в них-то, очевидно, «Адмирала Лазарева» можно будет и поставить. И топать крейсеру далеко не придется. Главное – не утонуть до счастливого часа. Для чего доковый ремонт «Адмиралу Лазареву» и понадобился.[...]
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http://svpressa.ru/war21/article/108052/

The article says: There is a naval maintenance facility located at the far east, named «Звезда». Today, it is used for utilization, repairs and modernization of nuclear subs with a maximum water displacement of 13.500 tons. But, there is a modernization process going on. By 2018, two completely new major dry docks will be created, each of those with a capacity for serving and constructing vessels with a maximum displacement of up to 350.000 tons (=Supertankers, Icebreakers e.g.) and special purpose vessels with a maximum displacement with up to 29.000 tons. The modernization process of the plant at the far east is a part of the rearmament program 2020, which, for its part, is supervised by Dmitrij Rogosin.

"It does look dubious if it will be going north or not- but there is nothing to suggest it is going to be modernized."

...there is nothing to suggest the russian navy is throwing money out of the window on this one. The paint-job shall ensure that the vessel doesnt continue to dissipate until it will be brought to the new dry dock. That is why the navy is spending money on it.

Yeah, they started modernizing Zvezda a while ago. And since then they have managed to fail every single submarine modernization project they have been given.
They were stripped of their 971 contracts and that went to Zvedochka. Do you really think they are magically in a place to work on a giant ship like Lazarev? Sevmash is working on Nakhimov after they cut their teeth on Vikra, when did Zvezda accomplish anything similar?

Feasibly they could be in a state to do it down the line, but that is nothing but speculation, which is basically how we can describe that one article you linked- speculation. By that time Lazarev will be even more ancient. The article mentions two new dry-dock chambers, to be finished by 2018. What is the status today?

http://www.rusmininfo.com/news/08-08-2013/united-shipbuilding-corporation-risk-lose-zvezda-%E2%80%93-super-shipyard-may-be-given-rosne

Not exactly encouraging news.

Plus Zvezda-DMSE is supposed to be civilian oriented, isn't it?

The paint-job costs pennies, just employs the people and dry-dock they already have.
True, Lazarev doesn't have a utilization contract like Kirov already does, but I don't see anything serious that can make us conclude the ship's fate will be any different.
They even painted Kirov regularly, when it was all but known it would be utilized.

Kimppis wrote:
They certainly don't have 45 destroyers... It's closer to 10, and many of their "destroyers" are frigate-sized. (Still one the strongest navies in the world, ofc.)

According to

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=Japan

Japan have 45.. and 16 submarines.. This doesn include the 60 destroyers US NAVY have..with aegis system..

historically JAPAn had a very large and powerful navy..

Yeah, they started modernizing Zvezda a while ago. And since then they have managed to fail every single submarine modernization project they have been given.

I'm not interested in emotions. There is a concrete modernization project running until 2018. By that date (maybe several months later due to a usual delay), there will be a facility which is capable to modernize vessels of any type in the russian navy. It is not a dream, it is a concrete part of the rearmament program which is, after all, running on schedule.

They were stripped of their 971 contracts and that went to Zvedochka.

They need modernization. What is unclear on this?

Do you really think they are magically in a place to work on a giant ship like Lazarev?

No. That is why the need to be re-equiped. This program, in general, does not depend on the Adm. Lazarev. It is the plan to develop the facilities of the far east to push the industrialization process in that region. That is why the facility is supposed to build vessels for civil purposes and not only warships. All facilities which are right now participating in the realization of the defence programm 2020 (navy, army, airforce) are supposed to meet this criteria. This is a directive of Putin himself.

Sevmash is working on Nakhimov after they cut their teeth on Vikra, when did Zvezda accomplish anything similar?

I will not repeat myself....

Feasibly they could be in a state to do it down the line, but that is nothing but speculation, which is basically how we can describe that one article you linked- speculation.

The article does not speculate about the existence of the program as such (!). It says, yes there is this program which is running right now. And then they make their conclusions based on that fact. And those consclusions are reasonable.

By that time Lazarev will be even more ancient.

That is why they invested several millions right now and painted it. To prevent it from doing so.

Not exactly encouraging news.

If rosneft is more capable of running the process, they shall do it. What is your problem? Btw, your article is speculation. The program is real. The subject is to get things running.

Plus Zvezda-DMSE is supposed to be civilian oriented, isn't it?

As I already said, all facilities which are participating in the rearmament program right now are supposed to meet this criteria after the program is over. It is not only about rearmament - it is a reindustrialization project for the whole economy. Putin directive.

The paint-job costs pennies, just employs the people and dry-dock they already have.

You dont "just employ some people". It is a military object. Btw, It costs millions of dollars to run the repainting. Additionally the expenses for putting it in the dry dock. You dont "dry dock" things you actually plan to scrap anyway. The aurora is lieing for 100 years in St. Petersburg now, because people decided that it is worth it. For actual military equipment, there are no emotional criteria any more. Either it is going to take service in the navy or you simply dismatle it.

True, Lazarev doesn't have a utilization contract like Kirov already does, but I don't see anything serious that can make us conclude the ship's fate will be any different.

Right know, there is nothing to make anyone conclude it will meet the fate of kirov. It is rather the other way around.

They even painted Kirov regularly, when it was all but known it would be utilized.

They never dry docked it, so they never painted it under the waterline! And, they never put the nuclear fuel out of it. Which is now, as I understand, and the article suggests it also, one of the reasons why they are killing it. It is simply dangerous to keep it in this condition for another 10 years. Basically, the reasons why kirov is going to be scapped are clear and understandable:

1. It had an accident with its power plant, which they would need to replace/repair, what, in turn, would cause unreasonable expenses. For that money, they can build another destoyer or two. Conclusion: The vessel has only emotional value. In the military, there is no such criteria.

2. Even if the would decide to restore it, there is no place they could do that. Nakhimov will occupy the svezdochka plant until 2018. Till that moment, kirov will disintegrate. And there is no other place to run the show.

3. That is why they basically had to choose one of the two vessels. They have chosen Nakimov. Because it is in a better shape and because it will be cheaper to restore.

4. Lazarev is a completely different story. They have put the fuel out of it by 2004. So there will be comparatively (..to kirov) little effort to restart the complex. Not to mention that there was nothing like an engine failure in its past.

5. They have made a major paintjob yet to preserve it for another 4-5 years from rotting (one that never was done on the kirov).

6. The facility which is supposed to restore it is currently in construction and will be ready by 2018.

7. All puzzles put together, Adm. Lazarev is going to return to the navy.

What can I say, enjoy your cool-aid.

I will be sure to bump this in 2018 when:
1.) Zvezda won't be ready for a contract the size of Lazarev
2.) Lazarev will be sent to the dump

It'd break my heart if I actually had an utilization contract to cut up the ex-Kirov. Like literarly, I just wouldn't be able to do it..

flamming_python wrote:It'd break my heart if I actually had an utilization contract to cut up the ex-Kirov. Like literarly, I just wouldn't be able to do it..

aw.

(IMHO) why doesn't the Russian Navy decide to add the K-77 high accuracy missiles as a medium range defence? And i personally think the 203 mm gun would be the perfect weapon for the Russian Navy.

A fleet of Admiral Nakhimov, Kuznetsoz, 2 Leader class destroyers, and a couple of Gorshkov frigates would make a pretty decent surface fleet.

GarryB wrote:This will be very interesting.

I suspect certain choices are obvious like the UKSK launcher bins for Calibre/Oniks/Yakhont/Moskit/Klub series AShM/LACM/ASW missiles.

Replacing Kashtan with Pantsir-S1 is logical, and Duet for the AK-630 gun turrets, while the SAM arrangement will also be interesting with the question of Redut probably replacing Rif and Rif-M, but will there be an upgraded TOR or just more Redut bins, and will they install Morfei. Another question regarding SAMs is will it carry naval S-500... or should I ask will naval S-500 be ready by 2018 or will it be added later? Will it be fitted to be able to carry a Ka-52 as well as Ka-32s and will other UAVs be added?

Otherwise the electronics and sensors and indeed powerplant might be a good indication of the sort of thing they will be putting on the Kuznetsov too.

I suspect a simpler power system might be worth looking at based on the new compact reactors they are developing for carriers, which should be smaller and more compact than the current boiler reactor arrangement.

Finally the guns... will it retain 130mm or go for 152mm or will there be a surprise and the 152s are for the Frigates and the new cruisers might be 203mm?

I suspect the 152s are probably long enough ranged to make them very useful with perhaps two twin turrets on the upgraded vessels and lots and lots of ammo.

Very good news all round.

Your 203 mm gun idea is an extremly good idea, as it would have a heavier shell, a longer range, and would be the largest gun on the ocean, taking the largest gun on a surface ship. Do you think a naval version K-77 is possible, and would it be a good idea?

No reason why it wouldn't be possible... The question is why bother when the Russian fleet has or will soon have equal or even superior AA missiles on-board? 

The only change needed would be a quick-burning booster stage to help it gain velocity.

Mike E wrote:No reason why it wouldn't be possible... The question is why bother when the Russian fleet has or will soon have equal or even superior AA missiles on-board? 

The only change needed would be a quick-burning booster stage to help it gain velocity.

Thanks for that, one more question

Would you know if the Slava class are getting a refit?

An interesting set of photos of heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" project 11442 in "Sevmash".

For fun I drew another possible potentially very expensive descendant design of the kirov, a railgun carrying battlecruiser.

Possible names for it's class would be after heroic russian battles:
Poltava
Borodino
Ismail
Novorossiysk
Odessa
Stalingrad
Minsk
Sinop
Kaliakria
Gangut


It's speed:32kn

Armament:
2x203mm conventional cannon
2x2 305mm EM guns
48 UKSK launchers
Redut
S-500
5x Palash, 5x Pantsir CIWS or theoretical future 45mm twin  3 barrelled gatling CIWS "Vyaz"
paket

The 305mm ones are EM cannons capable of firing projectiles to 300km and 570km rocket assisted. As for guns arent as accurate as missiles it can fire guided shells too at a fraction of the price of a full blown missile.If that isn't enough it has 6 UKSK cells. Keep in mind the guns can be replaced with extra UKSK VLSs in an alternate version, leaving the still very potent conventional 203mm turret(120-150km range with rocket assisted shells) . Unlike other modern ships it also has armor. Not WW2 steel belts but thick composite modern tank armor also rienforced by carbon nanotubes and fullerite, capable of protecting it from FAE blasts and close(but not direct) tactical nuclear detonations. It's spacious interior makes it very hard for narrow HEAT blasts to do much damage to it unless a critical area is hit(very unlikely). Combined with massive shore bombardment potential and heavy armor(forget about Bereg doing any damage to it) it would be the most effective ship in supporting amphibious landings.

Do you like it and think it would be a useful asset in modern naval combat?

Interesting, it seems that with railgun tech, guns are coming back. I dont see a immediate need for this type of ship, but as a partner to Mistral or Ivan green it would be useful.
As for naming i would suggest John Paul Jones, Rear admiral, active with the Black Sea Fleet after the American Revolution...