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Isos wrote:https://russiandefpolicy.blog/2015/07/21/for-nakhimovs-price/
this is from 2015
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103 posters
Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
George1- Posts : 18523
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- Post n°401
![Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 17 Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif)
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
George1 Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:20 pm
this is from 2015
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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- Post n°402
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
PapaDragon Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:22 pm
Nobody is disputing value of upgrading Kirovs. In fact I think that they should go extra mile and try to get third one back in use and upgrade it.
I know that it's in crappy condition but they should at least try to rebuilt and replace segments that are busted if they can.
Same goes for rest of the fleet, upgrade everything. At least they finally got around to upgrading Udalois instead of scraping them.
As for smaller new ships whole point is to put advanced weaponry on more manageable and numerous platforms.
I know that it's in crappy condition but they should at least try to rebuilt and replace segments that are busted if they can.
Same goes for rest of the fleet, upgrade everything. At least they finally got around to upgrading Udalois instead of scraping them.
As for smaller new ships whole point is to put advanced weaponry on more manageable and numerous platforms.
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3910
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- Post n°403
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
SeigSoloyvov Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:03 pm
PapaDragon wrote:Nobody is disputing value of upgrading Kirovs. In fact I think that they should go extra mile and try to get third one back in use and upgrade it.
I know that it's in crappy condition but they should at least try to rebuilt and replace segments that are busted if they can.
Same goes for rest of the fleet, upgrade everything. At least they finally got around to upgrading Udalois instead of scraping them.
As for smaller new ships whole point is to put advanced weaponry on more manageable and numerous platforms.
the third one that thing is a giant rust bucket, I've seen the shape it's in, it would be shocking if they decided to try and modernize it.
Isos- Posts : 11602
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SeigSoloyvov wrote:PapaDragon wrote:Nobody is disputing value of upgrading Kirovs. In fact I think that they should go extra mile and try to get third one back in use and upgrade it.
I know that it's in crappy condition but they should at least try to rebuilt and replace segments that are busted if they can.
Same goes for rest of the fleet, upgrade everything. At least they finally got around to upgrading Udalois instead of scraping them.
As for smaller new ships whole point is to put advanced weaponry on more manageable and numerous platforms.
the third one that thing is a giant rust bucket, I've seen the shape it's in, it would be shocking if they decided to try and modernize it.
The look doesn't tell you if the ship is in good condition or not. There were some officials telling they could upgrade all of them so it means they are pretty good and rust could be taken off pretty easily even with coca cola ...
Structure should be intact as they are nuk ships so they were build with better quality than corvettes or frigates. The materials used are top quality. There was a post here of an official from shipyards telling that the iron used for them is one of the best produced.
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3910
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- Post n°405
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
SeigSoloyvov Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:33 pm
Isos wrote:SeigSoloyvov wrote:PapaDragon wrote:Nobody is disputing value of upgrading Kirovs. In fact I think that they should go extra mile and try to get third one back in use and upgrade it.
I know that it's in crappy condition but they should at least try to rebuilt and replace segments that are busted if they can.
Same goes for rest of the fleet, upgrade everything. At least they finally got around to upgrading Udalois instead of scraping them.
As for smaller new ships whole point is to put advanced weaponry on more manageable and numerous platforms.
the third one that thing is a giant rust bucket, I've seen the shape it's in, it would be shocking if they decided to try and modernize it.
The look doesn't tell you if the ship is in good condition or not. There were some officials telling they could upgrade all of them so it means they are pretty good and rust could be taken off pretty easily even with coca cola ...
Structure should be intact as they are nuk ships so they were build with better quality than corvettes or frigates. The materials used are top quality. There was a post here of an official from shipyards telling that the iron used for them is one of the best produced.
Huh that was said so many years AGO and after looking at the hulls they said the first one could not be modernized it's a floating nuclear disaster and Lazarov was hardly in any condition for it.
Official statements are very clear only Peter the great and Naka are being upgraded, the other two are no longer feasible.
Kirov will be scrapped once they figure out how to deal with the nuclear mess that was created due to mishandling of the warship. It's reactor got cracked the ship was put into dock and abandoned at that point.
Lazarov was found to have a weak hull and would require extensive and expensive work to put it back into shape, so far the MoD has been unwilling to provide the vast funding the ship would need. Which if you;ve seen the numbers they would have to be crazy to agree too for one ship even if it is a kirov.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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- Post n°406
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
PapaDragon Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:07 pm
SeigSoloyvov wrote:................
Lazarov was found to have a weak hull and would require extensive and expensive work to put it back into shape, so far the MoD has been unwilling to provide the vast funding the ship would need. .............
What number are we talking about here?
Isos- Posts : 11602
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PapaDragon wrote:SeigSoloyvov wrote:................
Lazarov was found to have a weak hull and would require extensive and expensive work to put it back into shape, so far the MoD has been unwilling to provide the vast funding the ship would need. .............
What number are we talking about here?
Upgraded Kirov cruiser are or will be far better than Lider so if the price is less than building a Lider it's worth it.
AlfaT8- Posts : 2488
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- Post n°408
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
AlfaT8 Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:41 pm
Isos wrote:PapaDragon wrote:SeigSoloyvov wrote:................
Lazarov was found to have a weak hull and would require extensive and expensive work to put it back into shape, so far the MoD has been unwilling to provide the vast funding the ship would need. .............
What number are we talking about here?
Upgraded Kirov cruiser are or will be far better than Lider so if the price is less than building a Lider it's worth it.
Better than the Lider, i doubt that.
But as powerful Battle-cruisers with modern weapon systems, they'd easily outclass any other, although as far as i know only 2 Kirovs will be upgraded, either after or during the second upgrade will the Lider's construction begin.
There's also the possibility of upgrading the other 2 if the MoD becomes indecisive with the Lider's construction.
IMO they will become indecisive, since they always seem to have some phobia with new big ships, but that's just my opinion, for now it looks like the Liders construction will happen.
Peŕrier- Posts : 275
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- Post n°409
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
Peŕrier Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:39 am
First, I think Kirovs are quite unique ships with unparalleled capabilities inside russian navy.
It would be just a good thing to get three of them back on service.
On the other hand, a ship is not just a hull: a naval ship is made of hundreds, if not thousands of subsystems.
If most of them are in a poor state, it could be just cheaper and more cost effective to build a new vessel from scratch than trying to restore and update an old hull with most of systems out of service.
As sad as it could seems, I think it will be more effective to save the present two operational Kirovs and use the third as a spare parts' source, than restoring a dilapidated vessel draining funds useful to build brand new ships.
IMHO, the focus should be to finalize and build a destroyer's size AAW ship, followed by a dedicated ASW variant of the same ship.
About the so called phobia for large ships, I think it's only generated by the uncertain state of priorities: granted the russian navy would receive the required funds both to invest in new ships and to maintain and support them, projects would be finalized and appear far less Sci-Fi than so far published renderings.
It would be just a good thing to get three of them back on service.
On the other hand, a ship is not just a hull: a naval ship is made of hundreds, if not thousands of subsystems.
If most of them are in a poor state, it could be just cheaper and more cost effective to build a new vessel from scratch than trying to restore and update an old hull with most of systems out of service.
As sad as it could seems, I think it will be more effective to save the present two operational Kirovs and use the third as a spare parts' source, than restoring a dilapidated vessel draining funds useful to build brand new ships.
IMHO, the focus should be to finalize and build a destroyer's size AAW ship, followed by a dedicated ASW variant of the same ship.
About the so called phobia for large ships, I think it's only generated by the uncertain state of priorities: granted the russian navy would receive the required funds both to invest in new ships and to maintain and support them, projects would be finalized and appear far less Sci-Fi than so far published renderings.
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3910
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- Post n°410
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
SeigSoloyvov Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:06 am
PapaDragon wrote:SeigSoloyvov wrote:................
Lazarov was found to have a weak hull and would require extensive and expensive work to put it back into shape, so far the MoD has been unwilling to provide the vast funding the ship would need. .............
What number are we talking about here?
Pre-Estimates was 2x was close to the current refit price for the Naka and the Russians had to sink more money into that ship then reported mind you.
So if they tried to refit Lazarov it the price would only get more expensive from the pre-estimate which happens all the time with this kind of project.
End of the day you would be looking at 2.5-3 Billion for it and thats me being generous, they would have to redo the entire hull replace all the wiring, replace all the sub systems.
The reactor etc it's just not worth it and the MoD knows this hence why they dropped it officially.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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- Post n°411
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
PapaDragon Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:05 am
3 billion that's pretty much cost of 2 Yasen subs, you are right definitely not worth it.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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From recollection Nakhimov has wound up requiring significantly more structural repairs than was estimated.
Combined with the earlier conclusion after inspections that Nakhimov was in way better structural shape than Lazarev -> stick a fork in Lazarev (possibly literally).
Combined with the earlier conclusion after inspections that Nakhimov was in way better structural shape than Lazarev -> stick a fork in Lazarev (possibly literally).
AlfaT8- Posts : 2488
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- Post n°413
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
AlfaT8 Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:38 pm
Ok, so from this we can be certain that upgrading the other 2 Kirovs is simply out of the question, but i still doubt the MoD would actually commit to the Lider.
Since there is also the possibility that they will focus on the Super-Gorshkov and push back the Lider indefinitely, again just my opinion.
Since there is also the possibility that they will focus on the Super-Gorshkov and push back the Lider indefinitely, again just my opinion.
GarryB- Posts : 40546
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- Post n°414
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
GarryB Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:44 am
They need a cruiser level vessel to operate with any new carriers down the track and to base surface groups around.
Right now they have two cruisers that could do with some serious upgrades.
Personally I would like to see them rip out the entire propulsion system and replace it with the new nukes developed for their new carriers.
Such simplification would likely free up a lot of space and allow a bit of a shift around.
I would get rid of the shafts and use propulsion pods and make her all electric drive.
Test some early model systems developed for the new cruiser designs in these ships and also in the Kuznetsov with its upgrade.
Right now they have two cruisers that could do with some serious upgrades.
Personally I would like to see them rip out the entire propulsion system and replace it with the new nukes developed for their new carriers.
Such simplification would likely free up a lot of space and allow a bit of a shift around.
I would get rid of the shafts and use propulsion pods and make her all electric drive.
Test some early model systems developed for the new cruiser designs in these ships and also in the Kuznetsov with its upgrade.
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- Post n°415
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
Guest Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:01 am
Isos wrote:SeigSoloyvov wrote:PapaDragon wrote:Nobody is disputing value of upgrading Kirovs. In fact I think that they should go extra mile and try to get third one back in use and upgrade it.
I know that it's in crappy condition but they should at least try to rebuilt and replace segments that are busted if they can.
Same goes for rest of the fleet, upgrade everything. At least they finally got around to upgrading Udalois instead of scraping them.
As for smaller new ships whole point is to put advanced weaponry on more manageable and numerous platforms.
the third one that thing is a giant rust bucket, I've seen the shape it's in, it would be shocking if they decided to try and modernize it.
The look doesn't tell you if the ship is in good condition or not. There were some officials telling they could upgrade all of them so it means they are pretty good and rust could be taken off pretty easily even with coca cola ...
Structure should be intact as they are nuk ships so they were build with better quality than corvettes or frigates. The materials used are top quality. There was a post here of an official from shipyards telling that the iron used for them is one of the best produced.
Steel, not iron for sure
And from what i read before Lazarov is in quite bad shape.
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- Post n°416
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
Guest Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:03 am
hoom wrote:From recollection Nakhimov has wound up requiring significantly more structural repairs than was estimated.
Combined with the earlier conclusion after inspections that Nakhimov was in way better structural shape than Lazarev -> stick a fork in Lazarev (possibly literally).
Allegedly work on Nakhimov already started when they found out additional issues with hull integrity, so they had to deal with those issues first. I am not sure if they planned such extensive hull repairs as they were forced to conduct.
George1- Posts : 18523
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- Post n°417
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
George1 Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:20 am
On the progress of the modernization of the heavy cruiser Admiral Nakhimov on the project 11442M on Sevmash
https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2123728.html
Yuriy Borisov confirmed plans to send "Peter the Great" for modernization
According to the Information and Communications Department of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation of 29.11.2017, Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Yury Borisov confirmed plans to send a heavy nuclear-powered nuclear cruiser Peter the Great to upgrade the flagship of the Northern Fleet.
"The strategic nuclear fleet, multipurpose submarines will develop, and the ships of the distant sea zone (heavy nuclear missile cruisers)" Admiral Nakhimov "and" Peter the Great "will be renovated and modernized. We have a lot of work to do, "the deputy head of the military department said at a meeting with the leadership of the Navy and representatives of the United Shipbuilding Corporation dedicated to the implementation of the State Defense Order of 2017.
According to Yuri Borisov, these works will be carried out within the framework of the new State Arms Program 2018-2027.
After the return to the combat composition of the Navy of the heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, which is undergoing a profound modernization, modernization of the same type cruiser Peter the Great will begin, said the commander of the Northern Fleet, Vice Admiral Nikolai Evmenov.
Separately, I note that in the "Reference" section of this message, the Department of Information and Mass Communications has confirmed its reputation as a "reliable" source:
...
"Admiral Nakhimov", in particular, will carry cruise missiles "Caliber". The ship will be equipped with a new anti-aircraft missile system "Police-Redut", its antiaircraft ammunition will be increased at times.
https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2123728.html
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4901
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- Post n°418
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
Big_Gazza Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:31 am
Militarov wrote:And from what i read before Lazarov is in quite bad shape.
Not sure about that. Lazarov looks rather sad and sorry while she was mothballed and cannabalised to keep her sisters operating, but only seemed to suffer from some weather staining and surface rust. Pics of her emerging from dry-dock for preservation work show her looking quite sound structurally.
![Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 17 Lazare10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/14/38/61/lazare10.jpg)
![Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 17 Lazare12](https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/14/38/61/lazare12.jpg)
Cyberspec- Posts : 2904
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- Post n°419
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
Cyberspec Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:05 pm
Big_Gazza wrote:Militarov wrote:And from what i read before Lazarov is in quite bad shape.
Not sure about that. Lazarov looks rather sad and sorry while she was mothballed and cannabalised to keep her sisters operating, but only seemed to suffer from some weather staining and surface rust. Pics of her emerging from dry-dock for preservation work show her looking quite sound structurally.
According to a retired officer in a interview on the Kirov's, he claimed they were built to last 100 years (structurally speaking)
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3910
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- Post n°420
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
SeigSoloyvov Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:40 pm
Cyberspec wrote:Big_Gazza wrote:Militarov wrote:And from what i read before Lazarov is in quite bad shape.
Not sure about that. Lazarov looks rather sad and sorry while she was mothballed and cannabalised to keep her sisters operating, but only seemed to suffer from some weather staining and surface rust. Pics of her emerging from dry-dock for preservation work show her looking quite sound structurally.
According to a retired officer in a interview on the Kirov's, he claimed they were built to last 100 years (structurally speaking)
All ships look sound until you get inside of them, unless the things are keeling over you won't see a problem from the outside.
He "claims" claims are just that.
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- Post n°421
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
Tingsay Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:59 pm
SeigSoloyvov wrote:Cyberspec wrote:Big_Gazza wrote:Militarov wrote:And from what i read before Lazarov is in quite bad shape.
Not sure about that. Lazarov looks rather sad and sorry while she was mothballed and cannabalised to keep her sisters operating, but only seemed to suffer from some weather staining and surface rust. Pics of her emerging from dry-dock for preservation work show her looking quite sound structurally.
According to a retired officer in a interview on the Kirov's, he claimed they were built to last 100 years (structurally speaking)
All ships look sound until you get inside of them, unless the things are keeling over you won't see a problem from the outside.
He "claims" claims are just that.
Not saying you are wrong but a good looking outside would most likely have a good inside since the outside is the most exposed to the elements, right?
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- Post n°422
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
Big_Gazza Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:02 am
May I suggest that your claims are no better?SeigSoloyvov wrote:He "claims" claims are just that.
If the Lazarev was really in such an allegedly poor state, why would the RuN commit scarce funds to her dry-docking and preservation? IMHO these allegations are just more of the usual policy-mandated shit-canning of all things Russian.
GarryB- Posts : 40546
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- Post n°423
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
GarryB Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:18 am
He "claims" claims are just that.
Claims either way are all we have.... what a shocker that you believe the negative claims and dismiss the positive ones.
walle83- Posts : 976
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- Post n°424
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
walle83 Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:54 am
If China could get the old rustbucket Varyag back in shape then offcource its possible to repair all the old Kirov:s. The question is just if its economical worth it.
Personaly i dont think so. Yes I would love seing these impressive ships back at sea but how many corvettes and frigates can you get for the same price?
If the price for 1 updated Kirov = 4 brand new frigates, then frigates is my choice.
Personaly i dont think so. Yes I would love seing these impressive ships back at sea but how many corvettes and frigates can you get for the same price?
If the price for 1 updated Kirov = 4 brand new frigates, then frigates is my choice.
Peŕrier- Posts : 275
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- Post n°425
Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]
Peŕrier Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:01 am
Tingsay wrote:
Not saying you are wrong but a good looking outside would most likely have a good inside since the outside is the most exposed to the elements, right?
That could be true for the hull itself, unless water salt and galvanic currents have claimed an heavy toll on some internal structure.
But onboard systems, hydraulics like electrical and pneumatic ones, won't last like the hull itself even with constant maintenace.
So I do no doubt the ship as a hull could still be sound, but rebuilding most of the internal systems, with kilometers of piping and power lines, hundreds hydraulic actuators, fans, monitoring sensors and so on, would be a long and expensive work.
Last but not least, having a NPP means lot of work to analyze possible sources of nuclear contamination and likely a complete rebuild and certification of the NPP itself, which in turn could be more expensive than dismantling the whole thing and building a brand new one.
It is up to the Russian Navy to evaluate if the resources required are better applied to overhaul Admiral Nakhimov or to build something else from scratch.
My bet is that Nakhimov is still in such a state that it could be overhauled, but I won't bet up to what real plans for it are.
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