Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

So are there any quotes on any of the issues from officials?

There are some quotes yes, in Russian.

Definitely quoted things are:
10* UKSK modules = 80 missiles
Zirkon in future (its pretty clearly being developed for UKSK)
Replacement of Kashtan with Pantsir-M
I think Paket has been quoted.

Edit: You'll find a bunch of what official quotes there are here http://bastion-karpenko.ru/11442-modernizacia/

hoom wrote:There are some quotes yes, in Russian.

Definitely quoted things are:
10* UKSK modules = 80 missiles
Zirkon in future (its pretty clearly being developed for UKSK)
Replacement of Kashtan with Pantsir-M
I think Paket has been quoted.

Edit: You'll find a bunch of what official quotes there are here http://bastion-karpenko.ru/11442-modernizacia/

Thanks! I did find a named quote on Redut being planned, so that's something. Zircon quotes are all from unnamed sources, sadly.

eridan wrote:

hoom wrote:There are some quotes yes, in Russian.

Definitely quoted things are:
10* UKSK modules = 80 missiles
Zirkon in future (its pretty clearly being developed for UKSK)
Replacement of Kashtan with Pantsir-M
I think Paket has been quoted.

Edit: You'll find a bunch of what official quotes there are here http://bastion-karpenko.ru/11442-modernizacia/

Thanks! I did find a named quote on Redut being planned, so that's something. Zircon quotes are all from unnamed sources, sadly.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/year-2015-news/january-2015-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/2310-russian-shipyard-sevmash-ordered-new-equipment-for-overhaul-of-kirov-class-cruiser-nakhimov.html

Here's a list, translated from google. No Redut. Pantsir seems unlikely since they call the replacement a new Dirk and not Carapace or Shell. I don't know if this is all of it since the satellite photo shows they've removed the gun and yet I don't see anything on the list about the gun, except Puma.

GarryB wrote:

Question is, are they replacing it with a more stealthy twin 130mm gun or a new twin 152mm gun...

Hoping for the latter.

Why not the big momma 203mm beauty Twin 203mm is something suites in a 28kt cruiser!

chicken wrote:

Here's a list, translated from google. No Redut. Pantsir seems unlikely since they call the replacement a new Dirk and not Carapace or Shell. I don't know if this is all of it since the satellite photo shows they've removed the gun and yet I don't see anything on the list about the gun, except Puma.

On a second try, you're right, i mistakenly took a quote about Redut to be by a named source. It was again an unnammed source claimed by media.

As far as that subsystem list - can we  take that as gospel? How do we know it's the real deal? Also, if it is, how do we know it is comprehensive? Maybe some stuff has simply not been contracted back then when the list appeared.

As far as my translation skills allow me - Dirk-M seems to be Improved Kashtan, not a Kinzhal variant.

What seems weird for me inclusion of S300FM. That's a system from the 90s. Unless it's in reality something like S300FM2 (my own addition, don't know if it exists), something that leverages advacements from at least s300PM2 if not even s400.


Also, that webpage which lists news about Kirov modernization did have one interview where some official expressed doubts about viability of Pyotr the Great being modernized. Having in mind that Nahkimov is going to be 3 years late, does it mean there are *some* chances PtG will not be modernized?  Alternatively, if Nakhimov is indeed going to get just the stuff from the list, it'd mean its only a half assed modernization. And if so, could we see a different set of subsystems on PtG if it is modernized sometime in 2025 or so?

Semantics wise the linage of words does point towards Kinzhal. But if one googles dirk-m, results point towards kortik variant for some reason. Google translate seems to replace word "kortik" with word "dirk" in some contexts.

GarryB wrote:

As far as my translation skills allow me - Dirk-M seems to be Improved Kashtan, not a Kinzhal variant.

Your translation skills are interesting... do you think Dirk (meaning long sharp thrusting dagger) is related to Kashtan (chestnut), or Kinzhal (dagger) with its export version called Klinok (blade).

BTW I would love to see a 203mm huge naval gun, but there has not been evidence such a weapon actually exists.

We know there was colaboration between the navy and army regarding the 152mm coalition guns and a 70km range weapon with guided shells would be very interesting even if a 203 version with bigger range and heavier shells would be even more interesting too for Cruisers.

Destroyers can have 152mm guns...

203 mm gun against aerial targets

You won't have as many rounds as for a smaller calibr. Unless if you manage to use Pantsir missiles or Tor misiles from it. That would be a great weapon. Even guided shells won't be that much efffective if they don't have sustained propulsion to go on the target.

Isos wrote:

203 mm gun against aerial targets

No not aerial targets, for surface and sea targets. One 203mm shot can put a big hole in any type of hull exists today. Also for artillery support role.

You won't have as many rounds as for a smaller calibr. Unless if you manage to use Pantsir missiles or Tor misiles from it. That would be a great weapon. Even guided shells won't be that much efffective if they don't have sustained propulsion to go on the target.

Why you have to use the main gun? Kirov is a big ship. It'll have enough AD units remains throughout the ship (Pantsir, Tor, S-3/4/500, 30mm CIWS etc.).
And the current 203mm RAP shells already got 57.5km range. I think its easy improvement for current techs to reach 70km target with decent accuracy!

Modernization of the heavy nuclear missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov will be completed by 2021

The next shift to the right is the completion of the work. From a completely unrealistic 2018, at first to "by 2020," it is now "by 2021". And not the fact that this is the last transfer.

It is planned that the repair and deep modernization of the Admiral Nakhimov heavy nuclear missile cruiser (TARKR) will be completed by 2021, said the head of the technical department of the Russian Navy, Rear Admiral Igor Zvarych, following a workshop on repairs and servicing of the Navy ships, which was held under the leadership of the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Vladimir Korolev.



According to the contract, repair and modernization works of the cruiser are carried out by Severodvinsk shipbuilding enterprise Sevmash (Severodvinsk). Currently, the basement has already formed and installed the foundations for new equipment systems, repairs and renewal of life support systems, laying cable routes.

According to Rear Admiral Igor Zvarych, Sevmash is carrying out repairs and modernization of the Admiral Nakhimov TARKR in accordance with the state contract strictly on schedule. Reports on each stage of the schedule and the amount of modernization work done are regularly made to the commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Vladimir Korolev.

As a result of modernization, the cruiser will have completely new tactical and technical characteristics and will significantly enhance the potential of the surface forces of the Russian Navy.

For reference:
TARKR "Admiral Nakhimov" project 1144 "Orlan" until 1992 was called "Kalinin". The cruiser was laid on May 17, 1983 at the Baltic Shipyard. April 25, 1986 launched. December 30, 1988 replenished the combat composition of the Soviet Navy. April 22, 1992, renamed the "Admiral Nakhimov."

https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2046841.html

Yep, pushed back another year

Pr.1144(M) Admiral Nakhimov's vertical launch systems by Tiger.711(not to scale). 8x8 Redut SAM seems plausible

Sounds kinda weak for such a big ship to me
But then I guess added to 96 S-300FM its not so bad

hoom wrote:Sounds kinda weak for such a big ship to me
But then I guess added to 96 S-300FM its not so bad

For each of the 96 S-300FM you can put 4 9M96E2 so it would have 448 redut like lucnhers for 9M96E2. While normal configuration would be a mix but I don't think they are going to remove the naval Tor ... or maybe add the one they tested on a heli deck on Grigorovitch near the gun.

George1 wrote:Pr.1144(M) Admiral Nakhimov's vertical launch systems by Tiger.711(not to scale). 8x8 Redut SAM seems plausible

Google Earth shows the gun being covered but not much change in the supposed bow and aft VLS. Where did they get the info?

hoom wrote:Sounds kinda weak for such a big ship to me
But then I guess added to 96 S-300FM its not so bad

Weak? 80x UKSK, 96x S-300FM, 64x Redut..

That's 240 tubes..... not even counting Klintok/Tor...

I meant specifically the 64 Redut, I kinda assumed it would have more than that, its only 2 Gorshkovs worth.
And I don't think the quad-packed 9M96 is likely to be compatible with the old S-300 rotary launchers.

But yes when you put together as 240 VLS tubes that definitely sounds more suitably impressive

Except those 64 Redut cells in the above diagram are taking up the Tor areas.

Significant mod's to Admiral Nakhimov's hull -to accommodate new bow sonar- & its superstructure to be carried out:

https://iz.ru/653447/aleksei-ramm-nikolai-surkov/nakhimovu-sdelaiut-plasticheskuiu-operatciiu

https://russiandefpolicy.blog/2015/07/21/for-nakhimovs-price/

He argues that Nakhimov provides more “bang for the ruble” measured against new surface combatant construction.  He offers as an example the proyekt 20380 Steregushchiy-class corvettes of which five, with a total of 100 missiles, can be bought for Nakhimov’s price.  Two and one-half proyekt 22350 Gorshkov-class frigates can be bought for Nakhimov’s price.  Three Gorshkovs have 144 missiles. Or, for the cost of Nakhimov, one future proyekt 23560 (Lider) destroyer with approximately 136 launchers could be bought.

Shishkin notes that the renovation of Nakhimov costs 50 billion rubles ($1 billion), or 30 billion ($600 million) for the ship and 20 billion ($400 million) for new armaments and systems.  If this is the case, that makes Steregushchiys about $200 million, Gorshkovs about $400 million, and Liders about $1 billion per unit.

400 Million $ for gorshkov. I always though it was a little bit more than Grigorovich like 300 million $.

Algeria bough Steregouchy for 120 million $ piece so it means the add of Redut cost like 80 million which could be the price of future S-350.

Turkey bough S-400 for 500 million $ each so a ship with S-400 on it would be really expensive so it's better to go for big ships like Liders and Nakhimov and keep rerdut for smaller ones like Gorshkovs.

I would also keep using S-300FM by buiding 4 Project 21956 for each major fleets.

The most intersting point here, if it is true, is that the modernization cost only 1 billion $. We are talking about a ship that is 252m long, nuk powered and had tons of missiles on it. 1 billion is nothing for such work. That's not only a modernization but it is the reluilding of a ship and puting it into service again like it is a new one. A lider class will cost more than that to be build. They should upgrade all the Kirovs to Nakhimov standards.