Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

Because there is no need for it, while the action would require a serious rebuilding of the ship itself.
Including replacing of cabling, antennas etc.
This is extremely costly job.
Rif-M is still a very potent system, considering the fact that at the moment it uses a 48N6E family of missiles combined with 9M96 and 9M96E.
At least if you hear what Rosobronexport has to say about it ;-)

I was always amazed by the waste of space the Rif-M represented just from the beginning, but that was probably done by purpose ...

Hole wrote:Poliment Redut has nothing to do with S-400. It´s the naval version of the S-350. Or the other way around.

ok sorry for mixing it up, but still the S-400 9M96E2 and 48N6DM should have a naval variant they can put on these ships?

I think we can expect a fairly substantial air defense upgrade on his ship - but I guess we'll have to wait for some more info.

According to reports, the cruiser will have 80 UKKS cells, 92 (probably) S-300FM air defense silos and 20 533-mm torpedoes or Vodopad PLUR, i.e. TARKR ammunition load will be 192 cruise and anti-ship missiles, missiles and missiles.

Would be 96 S-300FMs... essentially 12 launchers with 8 missiles each launcher...

S-300FM? Why not the naval version of the S-400 the Poliment Redut?

They appear to be using the existing (rotary) launcher for 96 missiles, which offers an effective range of 120km which is probably good enough at the moment.

Poliment Redut has nothing to do with S-400. It´s the naval version of the S-350. Or the other way around.

It is likely on destroyer and cruiser sized ships the Redut SAM system will be expanded to include S-400 based missiles as they mention 250km and 400km range missiles for use in Redut in the future. It would be a lot of work to create 250km and 400km range versions of 9M96 missiles.

I was always amazed by the waste of space the Rif-M represented just from the beginning, but that was probably done by purpose ...

My understanding was that there was a requirement to be able to access the missiles from below deck.

I would think newer missiles are electronically monitored and error checked remotely meaning cell arrays with no moving missile carousels are needed... meaning much more efficient use of available space... so their new cruisers and destroyers will be able to carry a lot more missiles in the same volume space.

ok sorry for mixing it up, but still the S-400 9M96E2 and 48N6DM should have a naval variant they can put on these ships?

The 9M96s are Redut and are already on some of their new corvettes and frigates.

Not sure they have the 250km and 400km range S-400s navalised yet... the operational missiles are 120km range weapons and they likely made quite a few of them.

I think we can expect a fairly substantial air defense upgrade on his ship - but I guess we'll have to wait for some more info.

There is enormous potential, but they might just want to keep the weapon upgrades to a reasonable level while they upgrade the sensors and electronics, perhaps testing new radar and sonar and other systems.

There would be a range of upgrade options from bugger all through to everything.... SAMs, UKSK launchers, Radar, Sonar, sensors, propulsion... they could test new big radar and sonar sets, and new nuclear propulsion systems and new missiles and also guns of all types.... ie new 57mm guns for CIWS as well as Pantsir and of course the new 152mm guns they worked on with the Army, but I suspect this upgrade will not be enormous.

When the west fully rejects Russias requests for security guarantees then funding for the Navy might be boosted to assist their global interest in trade relations as an alternative to the west, but it might be another overhaul in perhaps 5 years time for some or all of these things.

GarryB wrote:

According to reports, the cruiser will have 80 UKKS cells, 92 (probably) S-300FM air defense silos and 20 533-mm torpedoes or Vodopad PLUR, i.e. TARKR ammunition load will be 192 cruise and anti-ship missiles, missiles and missiles.

Would be 96 S-300FMs... essentially 12 launchers with 8 missiles each launcher...

S-300FM? Why not the naval version of the S-400 the Poliment Redut?

They appear to be using the existing (rotary) launcher for 96 missiles, which offers an effective range of 120km which is probably good enough at the moment.

Poliment Redut has nothing to do with S-400. It´s the naval version of the S-350. Or the other way around.

It is likely on destroyer and cruiser sized ships the Redut SAM system will be expanded to include S-400 based missiles as they mention 250km and 400km range missiles for use in Redut in the future. It would be a lot of work to create 250km and 400km range versions of 9M96 missiles.

I was always amazed by the waste of space the Rif-M represented just from the beginning, but that was probably done by purpose ...

My understanding was that there was a requirement to be able to access the missiles from below deck.

I would think newer missiles are electronically monitored and error checked remotely meaning cell arrays with no moving missile carousels are needed... meaning much more efficient use of available space... so their new cruisers and destroyers will be able to carry a lot more missiles in the same volume space.

ok sorry for mixing it up, but still the S-400 9M96E2 and 48N6DM should have a naval variant they can put on these ships?

The 9M96s are Redut and are already on some of their new corvettes and frigates.

Not sure they have the 250km and 400km range S-400s navalised yet... the operational missiles are 120km range weapons and they likely made quite a few of them.

I think we can expect a fairly substantial air defense upgrade on his ship - but I guess we'll have to wait for some more info.

There is enormous potential, but they might just want to keep the weapon upgrades to a reasonable level while they upgrade the sensors and electronics, perhaps testing new radar and sonar and other systems.

There would be a range of upgrade options from bugger all through to everything.... SAMs, UKSK launchers, Radar, Sonar, sensors, propulsion... they could test new big radar and sonar sets, and new nuclear propulsion systems and new missiles and also guns of all types.... ie new 57mm guns for CIWS as well as Pantsir and of course the new 152mm guns they worked on with the Army,  but I suspect this upgrade will not be enormous.

When the west fully rejects Russias requests for security guarantees then funding for the Navy might be boosted to assist their global interest in trade relations as an alternative to the west, but it might be another overhaul in perhaps 5 years time for some or all of these things.

Wouldn't it be easier to try make a 250 kilometre Naval version of S-400? i mean the ship was always said to get S-400, and with S-500 rolling out Russia would not want to lag behind the West in ballistic missile defences.

Isnt Pyotr Velikiy the only warship in Russian navy with Anti Ballistic capabilies, or is there new ones currently?

ALAMO wrote:Because there is no need for it, while the action would require a serious rebuilding of the ship itself.
Including replacing of cabling, antennas etc.
This is extremely costly job.

That is what they've done, most of the ship got stripped back to bare metal, including interiors & especially the wiring.

S-300FM? Why not the naval version of the S-400 the Poliment Redut?

Because there isn't (yet?!) any indication that there has been any work on making a navalised S-400.
They might have been doing it & just not said it publicly.
S-300FM might be upgraded to be effectively navalised S-400.
But we don't know for sure if either is happening.

On the other hand the most recent few Google Earth updates possibly indicate work on the S-300 area
This pic dated 22 Aug 2021

You can clearly see the 5*2 block of UKSK & the Pantsir-M locations.
While it was in the drydock most of the time there was a shelter over the UKSK area and nothing going on in the S-300 area, with the launcher covers clearly visible.
Suddenly there are a bunch of shacks in the S-300 area, possibly on a grid that fits the launcher locations & the UKSK area uncovered.
It might mean significant work going on with the S-300s, might just be workshops for stuff being done elsewhere though.

Also there is work going on in the Kinzhal/Osa areas, again maybe just sheds but some tantalisingly right shaped/sized rectangles if they are putting Redut launchers.

The S-300 and the S-400 launch tube geometrically the same, as far as I know.

Means unless they want to make a new standard for launch tubes only for this warship the missile area should stay the same.

The real question is the radars, those would make difference.

Yup, you are right, but I consider the other issue.
Replacing the Rif would require new antennas for a new radar system, and that is not an easy task.
AEGIS offshore is a physical conning tower of a ship by purpose.
To avoid the need of testing a new structure, that would take time and money.
Interferences between the subsystems used to be a real pain for all the new build vessels in the 80s, which included 955, 956, and 1144.
It took them years to resolve it, and only after, they could finally use the dedicated subsystems, still failing in some of them (Mars-Passat for Kuz is an extreme example).
I find that logic behind it.
Rif-M can be upgraded up to PMU2 standard, and use 9M96/E/E2 missiles - this is an official Rosobronexport chart from the web of theirs.
And that makes it a still formidable weapon system, with proven antiballistic capabilities.
Or maybe we will see something that is Rif-M by the name only
Let's wait&see.

Lots of activity on that ship! I am pretty sure we will see some major improvement in the air defense department.
Even during the dock period there was some activity in that area. Those covered 9 cell containers may mean something?



@ Navy Fanboy
Most (if not all) medium to long range Russian SAM missiles can engage ballistic missiles - no problem.

ALAMO wrote:
Rif-M can be upgraded up to PMU2 standard, and use 9M96/E/E2 missiles. Or maybe we will see something that is Rif-M by the name only.
Let's wait&see.

Fort-M will be better than Rif-M

The S-300 and the S-400 launch tube geometrically the same, as far as I know.

The physical tubes yes but there are a couple of changes they could make:
Just plain upgrading the electronics on the existing carousels etc, if only to make them compatible with newer systems/missiles.

The existing launcher unit has 8 tubes on a rotating carousel, only one actual firing port & the carousel has to rotate the next missile into place before the next launch.
A minimal effort modernisation would be to change it to the style China used on 052C where it was still the circular unit but each cell had a firing hatch & no more rotating carousel


If they do a major upgrade a modern rectangular grid could potentially fit a lot more missiles in that area (but that would probably be naval S-400)

Replacing the Rif would require new antennas for a new radar system, and that is not an easy task.

The old purchase list (if it was real, not been changed & from memory) said its getting at least Podberezovik, Poliment, Furke-4 (top, rotating antenna on 22350), Puma & 'Tombstone' style S-300 fire control radars, which is a completely new suite vs what it had originally

Is that enough to support the idea of it being naval S-400? I dunno, seems like you'd expect some new models to justify S-400 designation.

Rif-M can be upgraded up to PMU2 standard, and use 9M96/E/E2 missiles - this is an official Rosobronexport chart from the web of theirs.

Interesting, fits with a limited upgrade.

From what I can gather it is certain that it will receive the Poliment-Redut (Resurs) system and the much improved Pantsir-M's.
The maximum engagement range for the Resurs should be at least 120-150kms which is close to the S-300 so I do expect some naval S-400 version with anything between 200-400 km range.

ALAMO wrote:Because there is no need for it, while the action would require a serious rebuilding of the ship itself.
Including replacing of cabling, antennas etc.
This is extremely costly job.
Rif-M is still a very potent system, considering the fact that at the moment it uses a 48N6E family of missiles combined with 9M96 and 9M96E.
At least if you hear what Rosobronexport has to say about it ;-)

I was always amazed by the waste of space the Rif-M represented just from the beginning, but that was probably done by purpose ...

3K96 Redut SAM naval complex. Apparently Redut has additional support structures in contrast to the older rotary system.

Wouldn't it be easier to try make a 250 kilometre Naval version of S-400? i mean the ship was always said to get S-400, and with S-500 rolling out Russia would not want to lag behind the West in ballistic missile defences.

The Russian Navy is the poor second cousin in the Russian military heirarchy, with the least funding but also some of the highest expenses... subs and ports and ships are not cheap.

They have reduced costs by using SAMs closely related to land based models and it looks like some unification of gun systems with the new 57mm gun turret for land and sea use as well as the new 152mm guns with shared development with the Army and of course the likely development of a naval Su-57.

It is pretty certain that eventually the Redut launcher will be expanded to include the full sized S-400 missiles, and that the 250km and 400km range missiles will be navalised, but right now they probably have other priorities.

I suspect the current relations with the west will focus Russia not just on China and Asia but also the rest of the world which means likely increased funding and focus on the Navy... which was probably planned long ago, because expansion of their navy is not about invasion and attacks, it is about supporting a global trade capacity to help Russian companies expand their client base and trade partners.

Isnt Pyotr Velikiy the only warship in Russian navy with Anti Ballistic capabilies, or is there new ones currently?

The 9M96 missiles as part of Redut in corvettes and frigates has limited ABM capability, as does the Fort system they are continuing to use in their two Orlan class ships, and Atlant class cruisers.

Over time they will likely replace the drum rotary fort launcher with a new redut able to carry the heavier missiles.

BTW a heads up, it is a forum rule for new members to introduce themselves in the rules and introductions section of this forum. Don't need a life story, but an intro would be nice...

Because there isn't (yet?!) any indication that there has been any work on making a navalised S-400.
They might have been doing it & just not said it publicly.
S-300FM might be upgraded to be effectively navalised S-400.
But we don't know for sure if either is happening.

But we can use our common sense and say while they likely made a lot of S-300F type missiles, such missiles are likely no longer in production, so using that type of launcher on their Orlan and Atlant type cruisers after upgrade suggests they either have enormous numbers of existing missiles or it is compatible with newer missiles which they are likely going to adopt.

Replacing the Rif would require new antennas for a new radar system, and that is not an easy task.
AEGIS offshore is a physical conning tower of a ship by purpose.

Made worse for Russian ships because most SAMs and even anti ship missiles often had their own radar in addition to the main ship radar sets which created a potential for a lot of interaction and interference.

The point however is that looking to the future a lot of the new systems probably only have their own tracking systems and leave search to the main ship search radar arrays... especially if they are going to be rather big AESA arrays.

If that is the case then testing new radar arrangements and types would be useful going forward for planning new destroyer and new cruiser designs.

In terms of land based SAM radars the new systems for the S-500 that are being also adopted by S-400 batteries is interesting in that it is designed to operate for very long periods, which would make it a good search radar for a ship...

A minimal effort modernisation would be to change it to the style China used on 052C where it was still the circular unit but each cell had a firing hatch & no more rotating carousel

I think the ideal modernisation would be to adopt a Redut type fixed cell array launcher as being the most efficient and simplest.

The maximum engagement range for the Resurs should be at least 120-150kms which is close to the S-300 so I do expect some naval S-400 version with anything between 200-400 km range.

They have said that Redut is going to get 250km and 400km range missiles in the future, which makes me think the cell Redut launcher can be adapted to hold the large SAMs too.

Rif-M is a naval S-300PM2. It uses the same missiles as S-400 but the 40N6.

In terms of radar they have naval ons on Kirovs that are different than the ground based ones. Only the fire control radar is the same and of older generation than S-400.

But even then missiles are either ARH or TVM guided so it doesn't matter a lot. With updated missiles it will be a S-400.

And what matters for a ship is being able to destroy anti ship missiles because a fighters won't enter the engagement zone of the ship's missiles anyway. Pantsir and 9m96 is what matters here.

Isos wrote:And what matters for a ship is being able to destroy anti ship missiles because a fighters won't enter the engagement zone of the ship's missiles anyway. Pantsir and 9m96 is what matters here.

The range of the AShM depends on the release altitude and flight profile, so you may need to check the ranges of current air launched AShM in the USN before saying the carrier does not need to get in range of a missile like 40N6... of course it is in the interest of any surface fleet to keep attackers as far as possible with long range SAMs instead of having to stop waves of AShMs fired at point blank distance...

[quote=@ Navy Fanboy
Most (if not all) medium to long range Russian SAM missiles can engage ballistic missiles - no problem. [/quote]

Ahh thank you very much. I thought the only anti ballistic missile defence they had on ship was the S-300FM. Good to see they have a few options.

LMFS wrote:

Isos wrote:And what matters for a ship is being able to destroy anti ship missiles because a fighters won't enter the engagement zone of the ship's missiles anyway. Pantsir and 9m96 is what matters here.

The range of the AShM depends on the release altitude and flight profile, so you may need to check the ranges of current air launched AShM in the USN before saying the carrier does not need to get in range of a missile like 40N6... of course it is in the interest of any surface fleet to keep attackers as far as possible with long range SAMs instead of having to stop waves of AShMs fired at point blank distance...

Any new antiship missile will have long range. And when launching missile they just quickly pop up and release it then hide back belllw radar horizon. But I agree hving long rang missiles is also necessary.

Here is my opinion on what it could have (most is just a guess)

80 VLS for attack/anti ship warfare (Confirmed)
96 S-400 (250 KM range (speculated in media)
70-100 poliment-redut (guess)
One Coalition 152mm gun (8 rounds per minute) (16 both barrels)
Six Pantsir-M CIWS (confimed)
Possibly kord 12.7 mm machine guns

533mm torpedo tubes stay on. (type 65 or new torps i dont know about)

Is there a torps page to discuss new torps?


And this is just my idea on what she will have

I'm probably more interested in what the new main radar installation will look like. What is going to replace the old MR-800 & MR-710?

It's only a shipbucket style fanart & I don't remember the origin but this is still the depiction that is IMO closest match to public info including the old leaked purchase order

Big_Gazza wrote:I'm probably more interested in what the new main radar installation will look like. What is going to replace the old MR-800 & MR-710?

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-electronic-systems/podberezovik-et2/

Already used on one of the Slava class.


Mr-710 is part of the Fregat family of radar and they have newer ones like fregat-M2M that is used on Grigorovitch class. But I guess they could make a new one for a ship like a kirov.

Shipbuilders to deliver most powerful surface ship to Russian Navy after upgrade

The Shipyard’s specialists will load onto the cruiser and install over 5,000 items of equipment and more than a million of various items

MOSCOW, February 17. /TASS/. The Project 11442M heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov set to become the Russian Navy’s most powerful surface ship after its repairs and upgrade at the Sevmash Shipyard is being prepared for its handover," the Shipyard’s press office reported on Thursday.

"The Sevmash Shipyard has begun setting up and training the delivery team for the Project 11442M ship. The crew will comprise workers, builders, adjustment and test engineers, designers, technologists and specialists of other professions. Overall, the delivery team will comprise over 1,000 people," the press office said.

After all the works are concluded, the warship will deploy to the sea where the delivery team and the crew will check the vessel in all the modes of its operation, it added.

The Sevmash Shipyard is carrying out the repairs and upgrade of the Project 11442M cruiser on its embankment. Large-scale internal works have been launched aboard the warship: specialists are mounting equipment, systems and assemblies, painting and insulating premises, the press office specified.

The Shipyard’s specialists will load onto the cruiser and install over 5,000 items of equipment and more than a million of various items. About 200 km of pipelines and 1,800 km of cables will be laid on the Fleet’s future flagship. All electric installation works are being carried out by specialists of the Arktika enterprise. The project designer, the Severnoye Design Bureau, has created the warship’s 3D model for working out documentation, it said.

Sevmash CEO Mikhail Budnichenko said that the work on upgrading the Project 11442M (codename: Orlan) heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov was proceeding as scheduled. The Shipyard’s chief executive said that the warship was due to be delivered to the Russian Navy in 2022.

The heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov has been under repairs at the Sevmash Shipyard since 1999. Real work on the warship has been carried out since 2013.

The upgrade has substantially boosted the cruiser’s strike capabilities. In particular, the warship will carry 10 versatile shipborne launchers for eight Kalibr-NK or Oniks cruise missiles. Eventually, the Admiral Nakhimov will carry Tsirkon hypersonic missiles.

https://tass.com/defense/1405191

The Admiral Nakhimov cruiser will receive a fourth-generation weapon during modernization

Work on the ship is carried out in compliance with the general schedule, the United Shipbuilding Corporation noted.

MOSCOW, March 21. /tass/. The Admiral Nakhimov heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser of Project 11442M (code "Orlan") will receive fourth-generation weapons samples as part of modernization and repair at the Sevmash enterprise (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, USC). This was reported to TASS by USC on the occasion of the 15th anniversary of the corporation's creation.

"In terms of the future service prospects of this ship, outdated systems and complexes will be replaced with modern weapons and military equipment, which in their characteristics correspond to the appearance of the fourth - generation ship - the flagship of the fleet," the holding said.

The USC noted that now work on the ship is carried out in compliance with the general schedule. The first sea launch for testing is planned after the completion of the entire complex of mooring tests.

"After the repair is completed, the Russian Navy will receive a new modern ship capable of proudly displaying the flag in all operationally important areas of the World's oceans," the corporation stressed.

The cruiser was under repair since 1999. Real work on it has been underway since 2013. The main result of the modernization is a noticeable increase in the strike power of the cruiser. It will carry, in particular, 10 universal ship-based firing systems for eight Kalibr-NK or Onyx cruise missiles. In the future, the ship will receive hypersonic missiles "Zircon".

USC is the largest shipbuilding holding in Russia, providing 80% of the domestic shipbuilding industry. USC was established in accordance with the decree of the President of the Russian Federation dated March 21, 2007. According to the corporation's website, it includes 45 organizations, including design bureaus, research centers, shipyards, ship repair and machine-building enterprises.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14130181

Wait for the West to get even more hysterical as the really important pieces start falling in place for the global scale challenge from Russia and China... never happened before and they are guaranteed not ready to cope with it.