Project 22160 Bykov-class patrol ship

Previous generation Patrol vessels didn't have Shtil or medium range SAMs either... most just had OSA at most and MANPAD more often... and they certainly didn't have 1,000 mile range land attack cruise missiles...

Guys you are going about this the wrong way.

Weapons on that list is the stuff that comes with basic configuration. That means gun and SAM. All other gear including cruise missiles are optional add ons. There is large space behind main gun, I assume that is reserved for large AA system if one is needed.

This ship is supposed to be anti piracy ship and auxiliary ship but not proper warship. At least that is what I think that ''offshore patrol vessel'' means. I could not find proper definition on line, if someone could provide one I would be grateful...

sepheronx wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:Guys you are going about this the wrong way.

Weapons on that list is the stuff that comes with basic configuration. That means gun and SAM. All other gear including cruise missiles are optional add ons. There is large space behind main gun, I assume that is reserved for large AA system if one is needed.

This ship is supposed to be anti piracy ship and auxiliary ship but not proper warship. At least that is what I think that ''offshore patrol vessel'' means. I could not find proper definition on line, if someone could provide one I would be grateful...

It will be stationed in the Black sea, the type of enemies it would more than likely face are NATO, Ukraine and such.  Maybe be sent to Syria but even then.

Those Igla's are unacceptable for today's environment.

It is not supposed to fight NATO. It's purpose is to scare away pirates and do scout work or something. Compared to competition it will be THE best armed thing around. In addition to Iglas, main gun and MG's it will have option for cruise and anti ship missiles, torpedoes and, like I said just now, big AA system in the front most likely. Quite the overkill for pirates.

This is new UK version for comparison:

......Armament

The main armament of the UK Royal Navy's new 90m offshore patrol vessel is a 30mm cannon. The vessel will be fitted with small calibre machine guns. It can also be mounted with a 12.7mm gun location and a 25mm secondary armament on both the port and starboard sides......

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/90m-offshore-patrol-vessel-opv/

A helicopter will be a big weapon and the purpose of the 22160 is offshore patrol.

For a patrol boat I think a helo is rather more use than a medium range SAM.

Main task for that ship will be to patrol, to see, and to be seen, not to fight, she have to cheap and capable for long voyages and her arnament is quite good for her task.

For fight they will have very soon Grigorovich class, Kilo class and they already have Buyans, Nanuchka, Tarantul and Bora class, And off course Moskva is there.

Patrols shiphs should be used for lot of regular day-to day tasks and to spare resources of fighting forces.

sepheronx wrote:But why Igla?  And what is said is the older missiles 9K38.  Why not Sosna with much larger range and altitude while being barely any bigger?

Igla is just part of basic package, they can still install something really big if they want to like naval Bulk or S-350 (Redut?). That big empty space behind main gun should be for that.

Like Marat said, these ships are intended to take all unnecessary mileage upon themselves so real warships can be ready when they are needed to be. Currently Udaloys are sometimes used to scare Pirates off the coast of Somalia.
Quite the waste of resources.

sepheronx wrote:But why Igla?  And what is said is the older missiles 9K38.  Why not Sosna with much larger range and altitude while being barely any bigger?

Here are a few points for you to consider:

1) If the Russian Navy wanted a ship with Kalibr and Sosna, they would have ordered more Tatarstan class frigates to be built right there in Zelenodolsk (where the 22160 are being built).

2) At around 1500 T displacement, the project 22160 is around 25% smaller than the Steregushy class corvette. Do you really expect it to have a similar armament? You cannot have Kalibr missiles, Redut SAM and a helicopter on these smaller ships and still expect good endurance and range. Something has to be sacrificed here.

3) The 22160 ships are modular in design. Their armament and equipment can be changed according to missions and threats. The specs that are available are just examples. The Gibka system is just one possible option. By the way, the Gibka is no slouch. With the newer missiles (Verba) the range will be 6.5 km not that much shorter than a Sosna's 10 km. Also, the Palma/Sosna system is several times heavier and much more expensive.

4) The design of the 22160 ships tells me that these are going to be the stealthiest ships in the Russian navy with an RCS smaller than the Steregushy or Gorshkov frigate. Apart from their patrol and surveillance duties, they are designed to sneak into position, fire their Kalibrs and sneak out. They are not intended to play with airborne targets.

5) The Sosna missile on the Palma gun/missile complex is not the most modern weapon. Why place yesterday's system on the future warship? Sure, they placed it on Gorshkov (as a secondary SAM) because nothing else is available currently. On the 22160 which are a still a couple of years ahead, I would suspect an upcoming vertical launch short range missile system to occupy the modular space between the main gun and superstructure: A TOR follow up or MORPHEI.

TheArmenian wrote:

sepheronx wrote:But why Igla?  And what is said is the older missiles 9K38.  Why not Sosna with much larger range and altitude while being barely any bigger?

Here are a few points for you to consider:

1) If the Russian Navy wanted a ship with Kalibr and Sosna, they would have ordered more Tatarstan class frigates to be built right there in Zelenodolsk (where the 22160 are being built).

2) At around 1500 T displacement, the project 22160 is around 25% smaller than the Steregushy class corvette. Do you really expect it to have a similar armament? You cannot have Kalibr missiles, Redut SAM and a helicopter on these smaller ships and still expect good endurance and range. Something has to be sacrificed here.

3) The 22160 ships are modular in design. Their armament and equipment can be changed according to missions and threats. The specs that are available are just examples. The Gibka system is just one possible option. By the way, the Gibka is no slouch. With the newer missiles (Verba) the range will be 6.5 km not that much shorter than a Sosna's 10 km. Also, the Palma/Sosna system is several times heavier and much more expensive.

4) The design of the 22160 ships tells me that these are going to be the stealthiest ships in the Russian navy with an RCS smaller than the Steregushy or Gorshkov frigate. Apart from their patrol and surveillance duties, they are designed to sneak into position, fire their Kalibrs and sneak out. They are not intended to play with airborne targets.

5) The Sosna missile on the Palma gun/missile complex is not the most modern weapon. Why place yesterday's system on the future warship? Sure, they placed it on Gorshkov (as a secondary SAM) because nothing else is available currently. On the 22160 which are a still a couple of years ahead, I would suspect an upcoming vertical launch short range missile system to occupy the modular space between the main gun and superstructure: A TOR follow up or MORPHEI.

You forget another point, Igla's/Verba's are designed to defeat cruise missiles, and most Western AshM's are basically cruise missiles designed to attack sea-surface boats, so essentially your better protected than some might think, plus either the 57mm main gun or the 76.2mm gun should be really good at defeating PGM's.

GarryB wrote:For a patrol boat I think a helo is rather more use than a medium range SAM.

Ka-226T seem to be a good match for this job both mass and size much smaller than Ka-29/31 and still can do the job.

magnumcromagnon wrote: You forget another point, Igla's/Verba's are designed to defeat cruise missiles, and most Western AshM's are basically cruise missiles designed to attack sea-surface boats, so essentially your better protected than some might think, plus either the 57mm main gun or the 76.2mm gun should be really good at defeating PGM's.

For patrol version sure, for corvette not so sure. But on airbase forum there was an interesting post about probable places foreseen for modular weapon systems - making it fully pledged corvette class.



source: http://forums.airbase.ru/2013/05/t70217,26--buduschee-mrk-i-mpk-v-vmf-rf.html

There is a fresh order for 6 naval version Ka-226T helicopters intended to be based on the project 22460 coast guard ships:
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1577858.html

The Ka-226T looks like a good candidate for the pr. 22160 patrol ships as well.

The diagram posted above by Gunshipdiplomacy is a bit optimistic in my opinion. I believe the modular arrangement will be as follows:

-For surface warfare mission: The Klub/Kalibr system will be in containers in the back. Not in the limited spaces in front of the CIWS guns. That place is for the AK-630s only. Also, delete the Paket anti-sub system as the ship does not have a sonar.  

-For anti-submarine mission: Klub/Kalibr containers will be replaced by a dipping sonar and launchers for the Paket system.

The air defense system (whatever it may be) will be up front right behind the main gun.

TheArmenian wrote:There is a fresh order for 6 naval version Ka-226T helicopters intended to be based on the project 22460 coast guard ships:
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1577858.html

The Ka-226T looks like a good candidate for the pr. 22160 patrol ships as well.

The diagram posted above by Gunshipdiplomacy is a bit optimistic in my opinion. I believe the modular arrangement will be as follows:

-For surface warfare mission: The Klub/Kalibr system will be in containers in the back. Not in the limited spaces in front of the CIWS guns. That place is for the AK-630s only. Also, delete the Paket anti-sub system as the ship does not have a sonar.  

-For anti-submarine mission: Klub/Kalibr containers will be replaced by a dipping sonar and launchers for the Paket system.

The air defense system (whatever it may be) will be up front right behind the main gun.

I am not sure if in case of war you have time to change modules not to put all in (torpedoes, missiles choppers and sonars/radars). especially if your task is to escort merchantss or shipping routes.

Visby has displacement of 640t and has sonars, radars torpedoes, ASchM gun, only helo and AAD is missing but foreseen. Then on 1300t class hull you shall be able to install all stuff .

Pls note Paket is not only ASW but also anti torpedo protection system.

I don't understand why you are comparing with a much smaller Visby which has no helicopter hangar (only pad for a really small helicopter), no cruise missiles (only smaller anti-ship missiles) and no air defense missiles. In addition, Visby can not have the endurance, amenities, comfort and sea-keeping abilities of the larger Russian ship.
The 22160 will certainly accommodate more systems and armament than Visby, we have no disagreement on that, but do not try to make a Steregushy out of it.

Regarding Paket: Models and available photos of the 22160 do not show any bow, keel or hull sonar. To have a Paket anti-sub and anti-torpedo system, you need a sonar. The solution is a dipping sonar (like the Grisha class anti-sub corvettes) that will have to occupy the rear part in a container arrangement that can also include a Paket system.

Ka-226T seem to be a good match for this job both mass and size much smaller than Ka-29/31 and still can do the job.

Very true and for some observation missions they were developing unmanned helos that could also be ship based to offer useful support for vessels small and large.

Good points of course, but I am just stating about the fixed SAM system used. I am more concerned about the altitude than range as Drones can be a massive problem, and the Igla's altitude is quite low compared to Sosna. That is my only real complaint. Outside of that, it looks like a beast.

Iglas were tested for their performance against small targets (Malyutkas to be precise... known in the west as AT-3... about 80cm long and rather a small target).

Of the 9 shots about 5 were misses but the misses were very close misses... but without a proximity fuse a miss by 10mm is still a miss. The solution was the Igla-S which has a proximity fuse to defeat very small shaped targets. Verba will have a proximity fuse too, so small targets should be able to be engaged anyway...

The main point is that with the radars and IR optronic sensors on even a small patrol boat we are not talking about a man standing out in the open looking for potential targets with just his eyes... the igla system will get early warning and the aiming system will be cued to the target.

A 57mm or 76.2mm gun would also be very useful against subsonic anti ship missiles and aircraft.

TheArmenian wrote: The 22160 will certainly accommodate more systems and armament than Visby, we have no disagreement on that, but do not try to make a Steregushy out of it.

My point was eh well you already said this above

GarryB wrote:

Ka-226T seem to be a good match for this job both mass and size much smaller than Ka-29/31 and still can do the job.

Very true and for some observation missions they were developing unmanned helos that could also be ship based to offer useful support for vessels small and large.

Drones are definitely good but IMHO for patrol ship you need to be able also to take humans (inspection crew or SAR missions).

Maybe with added corvette modules 22160 can have both drones and Ka-226T?



[quote="GarryB"]

The main point is that with the radars and IR optronic sensors on even a small patrol boat we are not talking about a man standing out in the open looking for potential targets with just his eyes... the igla system will get early warning and the aiming system will be cued to the target.

A 57mm or 76.2mm gun would also be very useful against subsonic anti ship missiles and aircraft.

Is warhead of Verba/Igla not too small to knock down ASchM? Rocket will hit but ASchM can continuh its flight...
BTW for Russian navy apparently artillery will be AK-176 but in stealthy looking turret, any news regarding new version? or no modernization no new ammo juat turres shape?

Drones are definitely good but IMHO for patrol ship you need to be able also to take humans (inspection crew or SAR missions).

Maybe with added corvette modules 22160 can have both drones and Ka-226T?

Actually the Ka-225T with Igla missiles or even R-73 missiles fitted would be a good solution to high flying drones and drones of all sorts could be carried... a hand launched drone that "crashes" into a net for recovery could take up no deck space yet offer useful coverage of the sea around the vessel.

Is warhead of Verba/Igla not too small to knock down ASchM? Rocket will hit but ASchM can continuh its flight...

A direct impact on a subsonic aircraft should be sufficient... remember the front half will be the radar and warhead while the rear will be largely empty fuel tanks, so a solid detonation should damage flight control surfaces (wings) and body structure to the point of failure. Ideally it will set off the main warhead which is a guaranteed kill, but blowing off a wing and having the incoming threat fall into the sea is just as good.

remember the Patriot failed against the scuds in desert storm largely because the scuds were falling towards their targets when they were being engaged. Blowing away the wings was not an option because there were no wings to take out. and the problems of engaging a high speed target meant that the warhead of the Patriot tended to detonate too late so it was the rear of the incoming missile that was getting shredded... for an incoming cruise missile that would have been good enough to make it crash short of the target but because the Scuds were already falling losing their rear structure make little difference... they were already falling and after the "interception" continued to do so till they hit their target.

BTW for Russian navy apparently artillery will be AK-176 but in stealthy looking turret, any news regarding new version? or no modernization no new ammo juat turres shape?

I rather suspect their work on guided 57mm calibre rounds has led to work on 76.2mm guided shells too... with a much larger shell it would be easier to develop a very capable anti ship cannon shell with guidance allowing one or two shots per kill. In addition to the larger HE capacity and range from the larger calibre it makes the 76.2mm gun more attractive than the smaller lighter 57mm gun for a range of applications.

I would expect everything on the ship will be designed to be low radar signature and to that end a Gibka and a few Duets will be rather more stealthy than Pantsir.... With a 76.2mm gun firing guided shells I would say protection would be pretty good.

Equally remember that if the air situation is harsh a couple of TOR-M3 or Pantsir-SM vehicles could be situated on the rear deck in place of those shipping containers with Kalibr.

I suspect they had to choose between a 57mm front mounted gun and Shtil-1 mounted behind it, or a larger more powerful 76.2mm gun with lots of ammo and nothing behind it in front of the bridge... seems like they have gone for the latter. The 76.2mm gun would offer about a 14-16km range which is plenty for most targets... especially at about 120 rpm.

GarryB wrote:

Drones are definitely good but IMHO for patrol ship you need to be able also to take humans (inspection crew or SAR missions).

Maybe with added corvette modules 22160 can have both drones and Ka-226T?

Actually the Ka-225T with Igla missiles or even R-73 missiles fitted would be a good solution to high flying drones and drones of all sorts could be carried...  a hand launched drone that "crashes" into a net for recovery could take up no deck space yet offer useful coverage of the sea around the vessel.

BTW Ka-226T has a modular construction - frame + container. You can change modules inside helo for depending on assignment

GarryB wrote:
Equally remember that if the air situation is harsh a couple of TOR-M3 or Pantsir-SM vehicles could be situated on the rear deck in place of those shipping containers with Kalibr.

But IMHO Pantsir-M is better solution - Pantsir can down practically any drone now being used by US (ceiling up to 15km)




[quote="GarryB"]

BTW for Russian navy apparently artillery will be AK-176 but in stealthy looking turret, any news regarding new version? or no modernization no new ammo juat turres shape?

I suspect they had to choose between a 57mm front mounted gun and Shtil-1 mounted behind it, or a larger more powerful 76.2mm gun with lots of ammo and nothing behind it in front of the bridge... seems like they have gone for the latter. The 76.2mm gun would offer about a 14-16km range which is plenty for most targets... especially at about 120 rpm.

I am not sure if choice is obvious for small ships. A-220M is half of weight (6000kg vs 13000kg) , has 2,5 better rate of fire (300 vs 120), 2x more ammo carried (400 vs 152) and higher vertical range - 8000m vs 7000m

Unless 76mm is reworked IMHO small ships are better off using 57mm artillery.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%9A-176
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90-220%D0%9C



BTW on Burevestnik´s website there are examples of ships where it can be sued. interesting is project 22500 - 950t displacement is this a look of future 22800 corvette? would be nice



here is a big picture


and data
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/22500-skr/

BTW Ka-226T has a modular construction - frame + container. You can change modules inside helo for depending on assignment

Would be interesting to see an air to air version with a rear compartment that was tiny and largely consists of a fuel tank to the rear of the front crew cabin with wings carrying one R-73 and a quad pack of Iglas in the air to air role and perhaps on the outer pylon maybe a 23mm gun pod.. that would cover pretty much any or all targets with the two R-73s for dangerous targets out to extended range, while the Iglas could deal with MPA or rotary wing or drone type targets and of course the cannon pods could be used for warning shots and scaring away targets you don't want to shoot down.

Perhaps for special missions R-27T and R-27ET long range IR guided missiles might be an option too.

But IMHO Pantsir-M is better solution - Pantsir can down practically any drone now being used by US (ceiling up to 15km)

If this vessel is operating on its own then it will be dealing with smugglers and illegal fishing... if an unidentified aircraft approaches then it would not be allowed to just shoot it down... it would be obliged to send up the helo to identify the target before engaging... that way it wont be shooting down Russian drones occidentally.

If the helo identifies it as hostile then it can shoot it down.

I am not sure if choice is obvious for small ships. A-220M is half of weight (6000kg vs 13000kg) , has 2,5 better rate of fire (300 vs 120), 2x more ammo carried (400 vs 152) and higher vertical range - 8000m vs 7000m

Weight is rarely an issue on ships... internal volume is more of a problem.

Equally the old 57mm ammo has a range of 9.5km while the old 76.2mm ammo has a range of 16.5km and is rather heavier. I suspect if the range of the 57mm ammo has been increased then the same could be done with the 76.2mm rounds, while the larger shell capacity would offer guided shells with a heavier HE payload over greater distances.

BTW on Burevestnik´s website there are examples of ships where it can be sued. interesting is project 22500 - 950t displacement is this a look of future 22800 corvette? would be nice

The russians have a tradition of putting bigger guns on their vessels... Corvettes that would normally have a 76.2mm gun on it in the west are fitted with compact 100mm guns in Russia.

I am sure they will give careful consideration to all options and make a good choice... either way.

[quote="GarryB"]

BTW Ka-226T has a modular construction - frame + container. You can change modules inside helo for depending on assignment

Would be interesting to see an air to air version with a rear compartment that was tiny and largely consists of a fuel tank to the rear of the front crew cabin with wings carrying one R-73 and a quad pack of Iglas in the air to air role and perhaps on the outer pylon maybe a 23mm gun pod.. that would cover pretty much any or all targets with the two R-73s for dangerous targets out to extended range, while the Iglas could deal with MPA or rotary wing or drone type targets and of course the cannon pods could be used for warning shots and scaring away targets you don't want to shoot down.

Perhaps for special missions R-27T and R-27ET long range IR guided missiles might be an option too.

[quote]

Hmm but using small helo for air2air combat? I am not sure maybe for drone self defence but in case of Pantsir -M not really needed IMHO

6 Ka-226 already ordered but this batch for 22460
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1577858.html?page=1

This is what i meant about modular construction





[quote="GarryB"]

But IMHO Pantsir-M is better solution - Pantsir can down practically any drone now being used by US (ceiling up to 15km)

If this vessel is operating on its own then it will be dealing with smugglers and illegal fishing... if an unidentified aircraft approaches then it would not be allowed to just shoot it down... it would be obliged to send up the helo to identify the target before engaging... that way it wont be shooting down Russian drones occidentally.

If the helo identifies it as hostile then it can shoot it down.

[quote]

I meant corvette version. For patrol Gibka is just fine.

GarryB wrote:

I am not sure if choice is obvious for small ships. A-220M is half of weight (6000kg vs 13000kg) , has 2,5 better rate of fire (300 vs 120), 2x more ammo carried (400 vs 152) and higher vertical range - 8000m vs 7000m

Weight is rarely an issue on ships... internal volume is more of a problem.

Equally the old 57mm ammo has a range of 9.5km while the old 76.2mm ammo has a range of 16.5km and is rather heavier. I suspect if the range of the 57mm ammo has been increased then the same could be done with the 76.2mm rounds, while the larger shell capacity would offer guided shells with a heavier HE payload over greater distances.

BTW on Burevestnik´s website there are examples of ships where it can be sued. interesting is project 22500 - 950t displacement is this a look of future 22800 corvette? would be nice

The russians have a tradition of putting bigger guns on their vessels... Corvettes that would normally have a 76.2mm gun on it in the west are fitted with compact 100mm guns in Russia.

I am sure they will give careful consideration to all options and make a good choice... either way.

Well on ship od 1000t class additional 15t freed by guns and helo means more autonomy or more Kalibr containers

Gunship,

The model of the ship you posted earlier is unlikely to be built.

First of all it is an old concept that I have seen many years ago. It is a version of the Buyan-M corvettes and has similar displacement (950 T).

Furthermore, do not expect Naval Pantsir systems on stealthy ships. It will ruin the low RCS of the ships. Makes no sense.

And finally, the project 22800 is the one chosen to fill that niche.

Having said that, there will be a follow on to the Buyan series. I don't think the Russian MoD or designers are currently interested in revealing it (just like the pr.22800)

TheArmenian wrote:Gunship,

The model of the ship you posted earlier is unlikely to be built.

First of all it is an old concept that I have seen many years ago. It is a version of the Buyan-M corvettes and has similar displacement (950 T).

Furthermore, do not expect Naval Pantsir systems on stealthy ships. It will ruin the low RCS of the ships. Makes no sense.

And finally, the project 22800 is the one chosen to fill that niche.

Having said that, there will be a follow on to the Buyan series. I don't think the Russian MoD or designers are currently interested in revealing it (just like the pr.22800)

Iwas guessing about that this might be kinda look of 22800? Much stealthier then 12300 everybody was talking abotu as basis. WRT Pantisr-M sure is not stealthiest but IMHO this might depend on assignment - in case of working alone of escorting ships AD wiht 15km of ceiling is good to kill carrier of weapons not bomb or missile. anyway pozhyviom uvidim

Hmm but using small helo for air2air combat? I am not sure maybe for drone self defence but in case of Pantsir -M not really needed IMHO

A pod with wings that have R-73s, quad packs of Iglas, and gun pods would be useful for an air patrol version of the aircraft... it would basically just be a wing and perhaps extra fuel tank for the pod so it would not be that heavy and should have good speed and range and reasonable altitude performance.

Replace the R-73s with 7 shot 80mm rocket pods designed for light aircraft with that new laser aiming system they have developed for adding laser guidance to unguided weapons systems and you would have a useful little gunship.

Remember this is a patrol ship so it would be dealing with illegal fishing and smuggling and drug runners on all sorts of platforms.

This is what i meant about modular construction

I am familiar with the aircraft....

I remember calling it Thunderbird 2...

Well on ship od 1000t class additional 15t freed by guns and helo means more autonomy or more Kalibr containers

For a long range patrol/operations it is just as likely the extra 15 tons saved would just be used for more ammo... but the main issue would be that having a lighter gun sometimes means having to use more ammo to get the same effect they would have with a heavier weapon. As NATO found in Afghanistan having twice as much smaller calibre ammo can lead to the enemy changing tactics to render the lighter ammo ineffective by attacking from greater distances... or using larger calibre weapons to get a range advantage.

Of course for many missions it might not matter at all...

Furthermore, do not expect Naval Pantsir systems on stealthy ships. It will ruin the low RCS of the ships. Makes no sense.

I remember they mentioned that there were two versions of the new Pantsirs they were working on... one for upgraded existing types that was not very stealthy and another system perhaps more modular and stealthy.

in case of working alone of escorting ships AD wiht 15km of ceiling is good to kill carrier of weapons not bomb or missile. anyway pozhyviom uvidim

Also the range of 20-40km in the later models is very attractive for very small boats to defend themselves from helos and light aircraft... (means instead of just shooting down missiles they can take down aircraft before they launch... which is much more efficient...)