Project 22160 Bykov-class patrol ship

The Russian navy orderd a ocean going patrol ship and that is what they recieved. No point to complain about it now.

If they want Air and land attack capabilities you have Buyan, Karakurt and Steregushchies.

caveat emptor wrote:

walle83 wrote:

Then just order more 20380s insted.

The whole point of the 22160 was to create a medium sized vessel that could free up larger vessels from pirate fighting and sea patroling.

Exactly. If you add VLS cells and Tor,  it is not a patrol ship anymore.

but as real life proved those ships need AAD in every case. Can it be a corvette? well not without all 4 diesels but then why not especially that this ship is significantly cheaper then 20380.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

caveat emptor wrote:

walle83 wrote:

Then just order more 20380s insted.

The whole point of the 22160 was to create a medium sized vessel that could free up larger vessels from pirate fighting and sea patroling.

Exactly. If you add VLS cells and Tor,  it is not a patrol ship anymore.

but as real life proved those ships need AAD in every case. Can it be a corvette? well not without all 4 diesels but then why not especially that this ship is significantly cheaper then 20380.

You need to add more capable radar and electronics. Big chunk of cost for 20380 is Zaslon radar. And you'll lose long patrol range. A lot of space for this ship was intended for extra supplies it needs during deployments.

caveat emptor wrote:
You need to add more capable radar and electronics. Big chunk of cost for 20380 is Zaslon radar. And you'll lose long patrol range. A lot of space for this ship was intended for extra supplies it needs during deployments.

The question is how much range ship would lost vs. range of 20380. Same with price - 20380 used to cost (6bill rubles) vs 2billions Rubles for 22160. Would it still be that different after mounting all this extra avionics? idk.

Or better we will see how plans regarding 22160 evolve.


22160 will get Tor anyway this was already stated by Russian navy.

Exactly. If you add VLS cells and Tor, it is not a patrol ship anymore.

True, but if they moved the helicopter hangar back to closer to the rear the middle section could be left free for modular use for a range of options... perhaps a second helicopter, or a launch structure for extra missiles, or some sort of EW station, or even a naval infantry section with troops accomodated for use in the helicopter deployment and also zodiac type roles or divers.

The current use with the pad at the rear with a flat open space that has to be kept clear to get the helicopter to and from the pad from the hangar is not very efficient in terms of the use of space.

You could flatten the tops of each side of the corridor and have the surface of the corridor as a lift, so instead of a rear mounted pad and a long corridor and then a hangar in the front of the ship you could move the helicopter out of the hangar and while in the corridor raise it up a deck level and have the helicopter pad as part of the corridor. That would leave the entire rear of the ship where the helicopter pad is currently located for a range of options including missiles or speed boats or containers etc etc.

Either way... they ordered the boats and they approved the designs and they have decided they don't want any more... not a big deal.... that sort of thing happens.

The point is that the fact that they are testng TOR on these vessels suggests they are making a new less bulky model designed for operations on smaller lighter vessels... the cold launch and cheap command guided missiles are ideal for 360 degree coverage no matter when the launch tubes are located.

The extra cost of the AESA radars will likely pay off with better situational awareness and the new mini TOR missiles for anti drone use will equally be valuable too, though obviously some sort of mass produced laser anti drone system would be valuable too.

Saying not every Russian ship needs to be an air defence vessel ignores Russian Naval and Army policy on air defence... which is not to ignore it and leave it to the Air Force to solve.

The new 10-20kg missiles for self defence to be used in enormous numbers might be fitted to all sorts of land, sea, and air platforms.

SERGEY KOTOV (4th unit of the class) is now part of the Navy:

Patrol ship "Sergey Kotov" (serial number 164) is the fourth project 22160 ship built for the Russian Navy, and the second one built at Zaliv Shipbuilding Plant LLC in Kerch.

Ships of this class were projected as OPVs, but they are used as full-scale light frigates. They lack a sonar suite, more powerful radar, ECMs, and better AA defence. Mounting army Tor in place of a helo is stupid.

Ships of this class were projected as OPVs, but they are used as full-scale light frigates. They lack a sonar suite, more powerful radar, ECMs, and better AA defence. Mounting army Tor in place of a helo is stupid.

It is only for testing to see if such ships are stable enough for a clean launch... if it works out OK they will have to integrate the electronics and sensors on the boat... likely by adding AESA radar antennas to the ship structure... then TOR launch bins can be placed on most parts of open deck... but not on the Helicopter pad of course so the helicopter can continue to be used.

It was just simpler and cheaper to use a ground based TOR system on a TOR tracked vehicle chassis but with the wheels and tracks removed and tied down with cables on the tie down points that helicopter pads all have.

GarryB wrote:
It is only for testing to see if such ships are stable enough for a clean launch... if it works out OK they will have to integrate the electronics and sensors on the boat... likely by adding AESA radar antennas to the ship structure... then TOR launch bins can be placed on most parts of open deck... but not on the Helicopter pad of course so the helicopter can continue to be used.

It was just simpler and cheaper to use a ground based TOR system on a TOR tracked vehicle chassis but with the wheels and tracks removed and tied down with cables on the tie down points that helicopter pads all have.

answering previous posts
a) not TOR but AAD Resurs. Not much I could find except it can use same missiles a sPoliment Redut but has shorter range (28km ) according to info form YT. Same missiles:
9М96Е and 9М100Е. He also said thet they work on extending the range (since 9m96 has longer range anyway)

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11745375




b) this RIA article doenst mention any chopper removal so chopper may stay however UAV imho can be an option.


3) YES sonar and Paket would be a nice add on for sure. Let's wait for next upgrade decisions

let's see whether those plans will materialize?

Project 22160 ships are planned to be strengthened with "Caliber" and "Resurs" air defense systems

The head of "Ak Bars" Mistakhov: the ships of project 22160 can be reinforced with "Caliber" and air defense systems "Resurs"

MOSCOW, July 8 - RIA Novosti. Project 22160 patrol ships of the Pavel Derzhavin type are proposed to be modernized and installed on them with the Caliber missile system and the Resurs anti-aircraft missile system (SAM), Renat Mistakhov, general director of the Ak Bars shipbuilding corporation, told RIA Novosti on Saturday.
Earlier, a number of media outlets reported on the fleet's loss of interest in continuing the series of Project 22160 patrol ships based on the experience of their use in a special operation. However, in 2022 it was reported that the series could be continued. Moreover, it was proposed to equip the ship with strike and anti-aircraft missile systems.

"The designer, in accordance with the result of the construction of the "patrolman", as well as with the proposals and requirements of potential customers, upgraded and updated a number of parameters and replaced some systems. The upgraded version of the project 22160 ship was supplemented with guided missile weapons and the Resurs multi-channel anti-aircraft missile system ", Mistakhov said.

According to him, interest in this project is relevant in connection with the use of a modular concept of weapons.
"In order to promote this project, law enforcement agencies needed to work out and present the appearance of the ship with a specific installation of weapons, systems and complexes on it," the agency's interlocutor added.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11745375

Those upgrades are more than necessary. At least the air defense. Adding the Kalibr would also make it more versatile. As is this ship is less capable than the Karakurt corvette at like double the weight.

lancelot wrote:Those upgrades are more than necessary. At least the air defense. Adding the Kalibr would also make it more versatile. As is this ship is less capable than the Karakurt corvette at like double the weight.

I agree there I just wonder why do they have to install Resurs not Pantsir? As for originally planned 22160 as a patrol ship it is ok but now situation forces to weaponize her. The fun is that in original design there was place for both VLS foreseen AFAIK. With such a long range and good buoyancy IMHO could be a nice alternative to have light corvette instead of extended Buyan class.

lancelot wrote:Those upgrades are more than necessary. At least the air defense. Adding the Kalibr would also make it more versatile. As is this ship is less capable than the Karakurt corvette at like double the weight.

this class is Offshore Patrol Vessel, if you want more Karakurts, then simply buy more Karakurts

AMCXXL wrote:this class is Offshore Patrol Vessel, if you want more Karakurts, then simply buy more Karakurts

Does not matter. It is not survivable against modern drones. Which even insurgents might be able to get.
In the Black Sea, where these ships are, several nations have these kinds of drones. Including Ukraine.
They already slapped Tors on the helicopter platform in an attempt to mitigate this issue. But that is clearly suboptimal.

b) this RIA article doenst mention any chopper removal so chopper may stay however UAV imho can be an option.

Someone here said the Tor launch strapped to the helicopter pad would replace the Helicopter... I replied they just used the helicopter pad for testing because it it is a flat open area on the ship with tie down points for helicopters that could be easily used to strap the TOR vehicle down for testing with no modification other than removing the wheels and tracks.

I wonder if they are developing a mini Redut launcher for small vessels that can only take the two smaller missiles (the short range 9M96 and the 9M100) which would allow them to reduce the number of decks space it would take up.

Conversely a new Redut system that is even deeper would allow full sized S-400 missiles to be carried too on larger vessels (250km and 400km range missiles).

[quote="GarryB"]

I wonder if they are developing a mini Redut launcher for small vessels that can only take the two smaller missiles (the short range 9M96 and the 9M100) which would allow them to reduce the number of decks space it would take up.

sound like definition of Resurs to me...

AMCXXL wrote:

lancelot wrote:Those upgrades are more than necessary. At least the air defense. Adding the Kalibr would also make it more versatile. As is this ship is less capable than the Karakurt corvette at like double the weight.

this class is Offshore Patrol Vessel, if you want more Karakurts, then simply buy more Karakurts

Karakurts are have 40% of range and 25 % of 22160 autonomy and are designed to short hit and run missions. 22160 can patrol like corvette and during the war. You dont really need offshore patrol ships during the war. Perhaps as Grisha replacement wouldn't be so bad after all.

5th ship of class, VIKTOR VELIKY was launched earlier this year.
It is now being towed through the river network to ST. Petersburg for completion.

MOSCOW, August 29. /TASS/. Project 22160 patrol ships, four of which have joined the Black Sea Fleet and two others are under construction will be upgraded, Ak Bars Shipbuilding Corporation Head Renat Mistakhov told TASS on Thursday.

"The plans envisage modernizing these ships through the upgrade of air defense systems and the installation of missile armament. Their structural design allows for that," he said.

Replying to a TASS question about whether a series of Project 22160 patrol ships would be continued, the Ak Bars CEO said that it would be slightly modified.

"Their current layout may not remain at all. The baseline ship is modular. It is more of a peacetime vessel. But it can be used as the basis to mount new equipment and new armament," the chief executive said.

"Historically, ships of this Project were primarily built to fight piracy when we ensured safe shipping under international law and escorted vessels past Africa in order not to send large ships there. This series was built precisely for that," Mistakhov said.

"This is why, we explain to all that as of today these ships are designated to demonstrate the Russian flag. They have all the necessary for that. These ships are noticeable, small in size, feature good seagoing properties and a long range of operation. They were intended to be built before 2010 when we experienced problems and ensured safe shipping. However, they entered service after 2014, closer to the time of the special military operation," he explained.

Project 22160 blue-water patrol ships are the first Russian ships based on the modular armament concept.

https://tass.com/defense/1835691

VIKTOR VELIKY in the Baltic being demagnetized and getting ready for sea trials.