Russian Navy: Status & News #2

I am not sure if this is true but...in this forum guys claim that 12800 is revoked by Almaz 12300... so not really corvette but more a missile boat. If this is true then I wonder why ASW protection is nto so important anymore for RN:

But there is also a revised draft number, etc. 12,300 won. 22800 from the CMDB Almaz.s VI> 500 t, with A-190 and CP for SPAR onyx. Diamond, in fact, was the developer of the Soviet pr. 1234, 1241, and has experience in the development of this class.

http://glav.su/forum/5-military/469/threads/928802-thread/



4xOnyx
1x100mm
1xPalma

But this is Scxoprion maybe 12800 is a bit bigger and can have containers for Clubs and ASW? Looks like green water bur good for Baltic, Black seas or Sakhalin protectvion

GunshipDemocracy wrote:But this is Scxoprion maybe 12800 is a bit bigger and can have containers for Clubs and ASW? Looks like green water bur good for Baltic, Black seas or Sakhalin protectvion

The Project 22800 will have a range of "thousands" of miles, and an endurance of 30 days. So they look to be something more than than a small missile boat.

I think it will be similar to Buyan-M missile corvettes, but better for deep sea operations than Buyans for Baltic, Northern and Pacific fleets. Caspian and Black Sea fleets will get Buyan-M ships.

Or enlarged Project 22160 patrol ship...

PapaDragon wrote:
Or enlarged Project 22160 patrol ship...

That would be best option IMHO - 22160 with fairly good ASW defenses (unlike Molnya or Buyan) - rest in containers.

BUT
http://tass.ru/en/russia/805257

"To keep the pace of ship construction, we’ll replace, for example, [Project] 11356 by building a new series of vessels - small missile ships, corvettes armed with cruise missiles - [Project] 22800. This work is being done today, and we hope that by the end of the year we’ll be able to lay down the first ship," Chirkov said at the St. Petersburg International Maritime Defence Show (IMDS-2015).

and


According to him, the new ships will be built in large series - 18 vessels as a minimum.

According to Chirkov, certain parameters of the new corvettes are already known, although the designing is not over yet. In particular, ships of Project 22800 will be equipped with Russian propulsion plants, their operating range will reach 1,000 miles and sea endurance - 30 days. They will have improved seaworthiness characteristics.

Here Scorpion 800t with Tunguska rockets

and here 460t version´s range is 2000miles...600t - 3500 miles
http://www.almaz-kb.ru/rus/catalogue/12300_1.php

Naval pantr post by k@llashniKoff
https://www.russiadefence.net/t4033p645-russian-military-photos-and-videos

ST. PETERSBURG (Sputnik) – Trials for Russia’s first reconnaissance flagship against US missile defense systems will begin in 2016, the head of the department of Russian state defense providers for the United Shipbuilders Corporation said Thursday.

“Plant trials…for the Ivan Khurs will be held in the third quarter of 2016 in accordance with the construction schedule. The ship is meant to provide communication and manage the fleet’s forces, conduct radio-electronic warfare, radio reconnaissance, and tracking of US missile defense systems,” Anatoly Shlemov told RIA Novosti.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20150702/1024111537.html#ixzz3eixfeA5T

I really think.. Russia needs to get rid of their big surface warships and have vast majority
their surface attack warships no bigger than a corvette. with as many sailors as possible.
Because surface navy is really vulnerable and exposed.. Can be seen from space its location
and even a cheap torpedo or two can sink a destroyer ,with hundreds of sailors ..  It will be
far better if Russia replace 1 Slava class.. for x10 patrol boats and then spread them.
That way is a major attack/accident or provokation happens.. that your warship is
attacked ,instead of losing 500 sailors , you lose just x12-x20.  Many mini warships /corvettes or extended range patrol boats can cover far more sea area and significantly raise the awareness of the radars ,by being in many places deployed.. instead of just one place like is the case of big warships.

Build a couple dozen of this warships

 

To do the offensive job of one destroyer.They could be armed with 1 or 2 Onyks missiles and
Igla-S or better man pads. They can be used as early warning system ,deployed withing 30km to 60km distance of an Aircraft carrier.. and monitor in case of any attack any enemy planes flying low or incoming torpedo or low flying missile. with their manpads could even intercept
cruise missiles way earlier than they get close to any major warships or aircraft carrier.

http://www.janes.com/article/41437/zelenodolsk-building-modular-patrol-ships-for-the-russian-navy

We only need to see how have been real life experience about Naval warfare.. Israel lost a top of the line destroyer to 2 egyptian patrol boats.. armed with Russian torpedos..  And Hezbolah wiped a modern Israeli corvette without even having a navy.. just launching a land to water chinese very cheap modified torpedo ,they got from IRAN. Then you have the british Navy, that lose a BIg warship by just 2 cheap anti-ship missiles launched by the argentian airforce launched from obsolete planes they have. They sneak into the British navy by flying low.

Even a low flying drone that could hug the sea surface can sink a destroyer..

This means that when it comes to navy ,you can be far more effective with more cheaper,smaller and more mobile warfare. I really consider having a Huge Warship a big Risk.. like putting all your eggs in one basket..  One destroyer for Pacific and another for Northern sea should be enough if Russia see a need to travel far away of its land... the rest should be patrol boats and corvettes very well armed.  You could have for example small corvettes with Ka-52 naval hellicopters armed with Onix missiles. And it could be very economically cost /effective ,more than building many destroyers with thousands of sailors.

THere is also the aspect of politics.. the political cost of any president losing a destroyer in any small war conflict will be very high.. one lucky cheap torpedo or a mine in the right place ,can send to the button of the sea a kirov class cruiser,losing many hundreds of sailors. The major unrest you will get in your cities will be the worse part.. compare that of losing a patrol boat with just 10 sailors.. vs  losing a kirov class with near 800 sailors. Huge difference. If both can launch an Onyks missile..then why bother building Big warships ,if small patrol boats can use the same weapons. Patrols Boats does not need S-400s.. Hellicopters launching Decoys and counter jamming electronics will fool any missile.   All said.. I really think Russia Navy should
be mostly made as a purely offensive navy ,using fast mobile patrol boats and corvettes ,in companion with Ka-52 attack hellicopters.  Intead of having One Mistral warship.. having 16x
patrol boats like the above picture could have the same offensive capability on the sea. Is not like Russia will invade any nation ever far away of its land..that will need a Mistral carrier to transport tanks.

naval artillery shooting range in Ryjevka (St. Petersburg area).

Vann... getting rid of all the big ships is like getting rid of all the big planes, or getting rid of the big SAMs and just having MANPADS...

You lose a lot of capability if you get rid of the big things and the whole system becomes rather less effective... and it doesn't make it cheaper...

You are actually describing a very old reality - witness the Bismarck. But it is not really a question of "large ships", it is a question of "second best" when it comes to naval warfare. In naval warfare, there is little value in being second best. One needs to be preeminent. The reality for Russia is the US Navy, not to mention the addition of allied navies, is vastly superior to the Russian navy in numbers. Large Russian surface ships would be sunk very quickly in an all out confrontation, the only impediment to doing so would be the risk of nuclear escalation. Second best navies always get the most bang for their buck asymmetrically (witness German submarine warfare in both world wars). Russia should allocate its naval expenditures accordingly.

From 2020 5th gen nuclear subs will enter production

- SSBN
- SSGN

with the same body and a nuclear reactor. Basically a same sub but with different "addons"

http://lenta.ru/news/2015/07/03/submarine/

Reconnaissance ship to monitor US missile defense system to begin tests in 2016


Tests of the leading reconnaissance ship of the 18280 “Ivan Khurs” project, intended to monitor the US missile defense system, will begin in 2016, director of the state procurement department of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), Anatoly Shlemov told RIA Novosti on Wednesday.


He takes part in the International Maritime Defense Show in St Petersburg with the USC delegation.
He added that the main feature of the ships of this project is the high level of automation and integration of systems.


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Russian Helicopters showcases renewed production of amphibious Mi-14PS

During the 7th International Maritime Defence Show (IMDS 2015), which is being held in St. Petersburg from 1 to 5 July 2015, Russian Helicopters (part of State Corporation Rostec) showcasing potential plans for the renewed production of the unique amphibious Mi-14 helicopter. This multirole helicopter can land and taxi on water, and also take-off from water.

Mi-14 helicopters were developed by the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant and produced by Kazan Helicopters from 1973 to 1986. Both enterprises are a part of Russian Helicopters. Where there is interest from potential customers, the company is ready to upgrade the amphibious helicopter with the latest technologies and re-start production.

This helicopter can significantly expand the range of search and rescue operations for the emergency services, and can also be operated by the Navy.

Russia's Techmash is developing a new paint for its Arctic-bound military ships and submarines which feature upgraded stealth characteristics. Russia's Polymer Material Scientific Research Institute, part of Techmash group, is developing a new paint for its strategic cruisers and submarines in the Arctic. Russian ships currently use imported paints made in Finland, China and the US. The newly developed paints, including Argof, are considerably cheaper than their imported analogues and meets the Ministry of Defense's requirements for noise insulation and reduced radar visibility.

"We are currently developing a paint with improved characteristics, for ships which will work in the conditions of the Far North," the institute's chief Andrei Golubev said. Golubev added that this includes paint for strategic cruisers deployed in the Arctic; it is manufactured at the Ural plant in the Russian city of Solikamsk.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150704/1024203715.html#ixzz3ewKnVSIk

The new tanker for the Navy to "Eastern shipyard"

"Vostochnaya Verf" (Vladivostok) is building a small sea tanker project 03182.

http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/64652/

Great contributions guys....especially the Armenian and Papa Dragon

Here's something interesting from the 'Airbase' forum....(Multifunction?) MFI Radar System (X, S and L band)

Third Kirov class "Admiral Lazarev" in docks for refit and modernization

zg18 wrote:Third Kirov class "Admiral Lazarev" in docks for refit and modernization

As far as I know, recently it was decided that it will be scrapped.

Svyatoslavich wrote:As far as I know, recently it was decided that it will be scrapped.

It`s from shipyards stockholder report.

Guess we will wait and see.

Good Article on how Russian Submariner forces pair up , it seems they wont last much again numerically superior US Subs and ASW unit , just managing to destroy 25 % US naval forces and loosing most combat capability in bargain.

Another interesting aspect is protection of SSBN forces with conventional submarine of Kilo types

Theater of one actor - Underwater US Navy feels superior even on our shores

Austin wrote:Good Article on how Russian Submariner forces pair up , it seems they wont last much again numerically superior US Subs and ASW unit , just managing to destroy 25 % US naval forces and loosing most combat capability in bargain.

Another interesting aspect is protection of SSBN forces with conventional submarine of Kilo types

Theater of one actor - Underwater US Navy feels superior even on our shores

I'm pretty sure size of entire Russian Navy is less than 25% of US Navy so no surprise there...

Austin wrote:Good Article on how Russian Submariner forces pair up , it seems they wont last much again numerically superior US Subs and ASW unit , just managing to destroy 25 % US naval forces and loosing most combat capability in bargain.

Another interesting aspect is protection of SSBN forces with conventional submarine of Kilo types

Theater of one actor - Underwater US Navy feels superior even on our shores

That's where the restart of modernized Mi-14 production and the modernization and re-introduction of existing Mi-14s comes in.
These helicopters will be able to protect Russia's waters at greater ranges from land than the current land-based Ka-27s can.

For further out, virtually all of the latest corvette/frigate/destroyer designs have helicopter pads where Ka-27s ASW variants will be based (in some cases Ka-31s or Ka-27s CSAR variants will be based on them instead).
There's a new class of helicopters to replace the Ka-27 family & derivates apparently under development.

Il-38s have recently been receiving upgrades to the Il-38N standard.
Later on they will probably be replaced by the proposed Il-114MP aircraft.

The Tu-142s will stay put for the time being; I should note that some of these are not old aircraft at all; they were being built all the way up to 1994; with the M3 variant being built since 1985.
All Tu-142s are supposed to be upgraded to M3M standard by 2020.
In the longer-term, they may well be replaced by PAK-DAs, or perhaps something else entirely; like a variant of the MS-21 or Tu-201.

The article doesn't mention the Be-12s; probably since they have only started to be returned to service last year and are only in service in the Black Sea Fleet - but they are another component of ASW.
Right now they are undergoing repairs at the Beriev plant in Taganrog and in a recently-ressurected facility in the Crimea.
They will probably be in service for another 5 or so years; at which point the question of their replacement will become very accute.
Originally, the A-40 was designated for their replacement, however the MoD later rejected the A-40 program; at which point there was talk of the Il-38s replacing them. However, the Il-38 being a similarly old aircraft that's no longer in production, not in service in large numbers, and not to mention without any amphibious landing capabilities - this plan never made much sense.
The latest news suggests that the MoD has rethought its decision and decided it needs the A-40s after all as Be-12 replacements (http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20140719/1016726869.html), and possibly to replace some Il-38Ns in other fleets too.

flamming_python wrote:

Austin wrote:Good Article on how Russian Submariner forces pair up , it seems they wont last much again numerically superior US Subs and ASW unit , just managing to destroy 25 % US naval forces and loosing most combat capability in bargain.

Another interesting aspect is protection of SSBN forces with conventional submarine of Kilo types

Theater of one actor - Underwater US Navy feels superior even on our shores

That's where the restart of modernized Mi-14 production and the modernization and re-introduction of existing Mi-14s comes in.
These helicopters will be able to protect Russia's waters at greater ranges from land than the current land-based Ka-27s can.

For further out, virtually all of the latest corvette/frigate/destroyer designs have helicopter pads where Ka-27s ASW variants will be based (in some cases Ka-31s or Ka-27s CSAR variants will be based on them instead).
There's a new class of helicopters to replace the Ka-27 family & derivates apparently under development.

Il-38s have recently been receiving upgrades to the Il-38N standard.
Later on they will probably be replaced by the proposed Il-114MP aircraft.

The Tu-142s will stay put for the time being; I should note that some of these are not old aircraft at all; they were being built all the way up to 1994; with the M3 variant being built since 1985.
All Tu-142s are supposed to be upgraded to M3M standard by 2020.
In the longer-term, they may well be replaced by PAK-DAs, or perhaps something else entirely; like a variant of the MS-21 or Tu-201.

The article doesn't mention the Be-12s; probably since they have only started to be returned to service last year and are only in service in the Black Sea Fleet - but they are another component of ASW.
Right now they are undergoing repairs at the Beriev plant in Taganrog and in a recently-ressurected facility in the Crimea.
They will probably be in service for another 5 or so years; at which point the question of their replacement will become very accute.
Originally, the A-40 was designated for their replacement, however the MoD later rejected the A-40 program; at which point there was talk of the Il-38s replacing them. However, the Il-38 being a similarly old aircraft that's no longer in production, not in service in large numbers, and not to mention without any amphibious landing capabilities - this plan never made much sense.
The latest news suggests that the MoD has rethought its decision and decided it needs the A-40s after all as Be-12 replacements (http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20140719/1016726869.html), and possibly to replace some Il-38Ns in other fleets too.

I am more worries on submarine count.

The article only assumes that US submarine is the danger but I would even add Brits and French in there after all they are nato.

Russia faces a formidable SSN force when you count the Virginia's/Seawolf/LA , Brits Astute Class SSN and the new French SSN , they combined eventually makes for around 40 Top Notch SSN.

Compare to Russian Submarine Fleet of upgraded 6 Akula , 2 Sierra-2 , 4 Oscar and 7 Yassen.

Barring Yassen I wouldnt bet my life on the others in facing a formidable SSN fleet.


I am not sure even if the Sierra-2 are getting upgraded , any confirmation ?


The Kilos are just good for Coastal Brown Water , I doubt Kilo can operate below Arctic Ice so protecting the SSBN via Kilo does not make sense , Russian SSBN operate only below Arctic.


I can just hope that the Akula/Sierra/Kilos would end up defending the Surface Fleet/SSBN while Oscar and Yasen would be sent to hunt NATO CBG and SSBN Fleet.

The best case possible for Russia is all the SLBM would be launched by Borei before NATO/US SSN would hunt and Kill her down.

I think Akula/Sierra/Oscar would be swallowed by US/NATO SSN/ASW fleet while the Yasen has best chance of surviving but how long is any bodys guess.

The Goal would be to get all the SLBM/ICBM out of the silos ASAP before catastrophe strikes , which is like 5-10 minutes a nuclear strike is initiated on Moscow.

Most NATO SSBN operate near Russian waters Barrents etc that needs less than 10 minutes for their SLBM to reach critical target.

So 3-5 minutes is what the Stragetic Forces and SSBN forces have after that there is just disaster and hoping and praying Dead Hand could do something

Well Russia announced a new nuclear submarine class aimed at protecting SSBN groups; the so-called 4th generation subs (or was it 5th generation?).

Russian SSBNs can be anywhere in the world's oceans; there is no neccessity in them being located in the Arctic.

You suggest that finding them is a simple task or something that can be reasonbly assured within a certain amount of time.
There is absolutely nothing certain when it comes to hunting SSBNs.
Moreover, SSBNs can potentially launch their full complement of ballistic missiles very quickly if need be.

flamming_python wrote:Well Russia announced a new nuclear submarine class aimed at protecting SSBN groups; the so-called 4th generation subs (or was it 5th generation?).

Russian SSBNs can be anywhere in the world's oceans; there is no neccessity in them being located in the Arctic.

You suggest that finding them is a simple task or something that can be reasonbly assured within a certain amount of time.
There is absolutely nothing certain when it comes to hunting SSBNs.
Moreover, SSBNs can potentially launch their full complement of ballistic missiles very quickly if need be.

Exactly. Mixed between boreis and delta 4's, they can be anywhere. Add to that, Russia I believe has been the only one to prove they can launch their ssbms in salvo submerged.