T-90 Main Battle Tank

9. Information-controlled suspension (whatever that means)

Would be active suspension... would automatically increase the range of wheel movement in shock absorbing on rough country, while on flat hard surfaces it would be hard to provide an optimum ride over different surfaces.

6 would be better called barrel reference system. It detects barrel droop and allows for it in the ballistic calculations to make sure barrel droop doesn't result in a miss.

Interestingly they are not showing the rear of the turret which can prove it got a rear turret bustle loader

The Side view above clearly shows there is a turret bustle, though what it contains is not totally clear.

The team that developed the black eagle joined UVZ when their company folded so if the requirements were for a smaller turret bustle that was more difficult to see and hit from the front then it is perfectly possible they might have simply implimented a much smaller autoloader that holds perhaps 5 rounds in two rows with perhaps an extra row top centre with 10 propellent stubs stacked end to end. 10 rounds of APFSDS rounds in the turret bustle plus 22 rounds in the under floor autoloader magazine with HE and HEAT shells would not be too much of a compromise in performance.
The original system was the full width of the turret and held 31 rounds which suggests two layers of 15 rounds, so 5 rounds shouldn't be a stretch.

The general conclusion when speaking at mp.net and from Gur Khan blog is that the rear turret bustle is just a place to keep ammo in a safe manner away from the crew , which is to say no loose ammo inside the turret , though it does not contain a new autoloader out there.

The T-90M already has a new autoloader that can fire newer longer APFSDS rounds , so you can expect that once the new autoloader round is over which is 22 round , the ammo in rear bustle need to be manually fed to the loader or just reload it for autoloader to take over.

I think this is the best part of T-90M deal it makes the tank so much safer , plus the other improvements like new gun , muzzle reference system , active suspension , K6 , TI sight for Gunner and Commander and other improvement is an icing on the cake.

What is just needs is a good active protective system else its among the best tank out there , certainly the best that Russia has now till such time Armata comes in.

I am very happy looking at how T-90 has come up from what we know now , I just need some more details on BMS and how the new commander/gunner work place looks.

If this is any thing to go by , The Arjun Mk2 officially is said to cost $8.2 million dollar per tank.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/08/antony-says-arjun-mk-ii-will-cost-rs-37.html

Actually 37 crore in indian Rs is $ 8.2 million

Garry can you explain in simple English how Active Suspension and Automatic Transmission Works ?

Test platform of barebone T-90 used for armour testing

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=163183

The T-90M already has a new autoloader that can fire newer longer APFSDS rounds , so you can expect that once the new autoloader round is over which is 22 round , the ammo in rear bustle need to be manually fed to the loader or just reload it for autoloader to take over.

I am not saying they are wrong, but compared to the turret ring autoloader a turret bustle autoloader is childs play... straight line ramming... no need to raise rounds and rotate them 90 degrees into position.

Very simply all they would need is an armoured door directly in line with the main gun, extend a tray from the turret bustle area to the breech of the gun, rotate the next free round in the autoloader and ram it through straight in to the gun. The two piece ammo means projectile and propellent charge in first and then rotate to the propellent stubs and load one of those, or the central position at the top could store all the propellent stubs stacked end to end (10 in total) with the rotary feeds positioning the penetrators from the sides.

They already fully developed the system and patented it in the Black Eagle, it wouldn't be rocket science reduce it from a 31 round system in the BE to a 10-15 round system in a smaller bustle.

To be brutally honest reaching into a turret bustle will not be easy without some sort of automated rack mount to push the rounds through, and it would be much easier to auto load or manually load them than try to load them into the floor mounted autoloader. Those things are 20kgs... get a 20kg bag of cement and put it in the back seat of your car... get in the front and try to reach back and grab a bag and put it on the dash board... isn't easy is it?

They will need some sort of assistance, some sort of automated rack that puts the rounds in a position where they don't have to reach too far for them... now if they are going to do that it is a small step to adding a tray to slide the rounds from the turret bustle area into the breach of the gun, so why not use a rammer too, and automate the rack storage in the bustle... it has already been designed remember and they hold the patents for it.

They will likely need to develop a turret bustle auto loader for Armata too anyway.

If this is any thing to go by , The Arjun Mk2 officially is said to cost $8.2 million dollar per tank.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/08/antony-says-arjun-mk-ii-will-cost-rs-37.html

Actually 37 crore in indian Rs is $ 8.2 million

The good stuff is never cheap.

AFAIK regarding the gunner and tank optics the standard is for the gunners sight to pretty much be slaved to the turret because his job is to hit targets he is directed to hit by the commander. The gunner sight normally only moves about 60 degrees... 30 left and 30 right and allows him to have a look around the target area a little.
The commanders sight has 360 degree movement and he is looking for threats to the tank and targets to engage. When he spots a target he will push a button and the turret will traverse to point the gun at the designated target and he will tell the gunner to engage while he continues to look around for threats or targets. His high position also means he gets a better view of the terrain than the driver down in the hull so he will often direct the driver from cover to cover too.

Garry can you explain in simple English how Active Suspension and Automatic Transmission Works ?

Active suspension can be best described by the cars that have it. In some modern cars there is a highway button, a gravel button and a 4WD button. The highway button is for good roads with few or no bumps and results in a hard suspension setting suitable for long trips. Conversely the 4WD button softens the suspension so that the suspension will move further which tends to give a soft floating ride.
Active suspension means that the suspension automatically adjusts to the terrain you are travelling over. Hitting a rock with a hard suspension will result in what feels like an impact, whereas hitting a rock with soft suspension the vehicle will smoothly ride over it and you might not notice you hit anything.
Driving around with the wrong suspension setting can be uncomfortable... a highway setting on gravel will lead to a punishing ride where you feel every little bump and it feels like you are riding on corrugated iron. Having soft settings on motorways makes the vehicle feel like it is floating and bouncy.

An Automatic transmission is easy to explain... no clutch.
You either select drive and it automatically changes gear for you or you might be able to manually select a gear but there is no clutch pedal to apply.

Means gears can be closer together and less power is lost changing gears, and it makes it easier to drive.

Test platform of barebone T-90 used for armour testing

For comparison to what?

Wonder if they have a new armour structure in the T-90AM?

They must be working on something new for the Armata, so an early version might have been tested against this T-90 hull to see if it was worth adopting??

All just hopeful speculation on my part of course.

GarryB wrote:I am not saying they are wrong, but compared to the turret ring autoloader a turret bustle autoloader is childs play... straight line ramming... no need to raise rounds and rotate them 90 degrees into position.

Its possible that it has a autoloader at the rear , its also equally possible it doesnt have one , there are good reasons for both and I have heard both.

So we will need to wait till mid september to find out the specs once it reveled to public.

Actually 37 crore in indian Rs is $ 8.2 million
The good stuff is never cheap.

The problem for Arjun Mk2 is that its import content is high which affect cost , now the present Mk1 is using German MTU engine which is 1400 hp the MK2 uses a new Cummins Engine of 1500 HP since the tank is getting heavier from 58.5T to 62 T , Now the interesting part is Cummins has no experience in designing a tank engine so it would be green field project.

Now most of the import content for Arjun is Western in origin which tends to be any way costlier , it will have ERA K5 which is Russian in origin , plus other capabilities like Lahat missile firing and other big and small improvements makes it costlier.

Logistically two different engine will mean expensive to maintain it.

No wonder its cost more then $8 million per tank ,which when compared to say $2.5 million for present T-90 or even $4- 6 million for new T-90M will make the army think on mass production.

AFAIK regarding the gunner and tank optics the standard is for the gunners sight to pretty much be slaved to the turret because his job is to hit targets he is directed to hit by the commander. The gunner sight normally only moves about 60 degrees... 30 left and 30 right and allows him to have a look around the target area a little.
The commanders sight has 360 degree movement and he is looking for threats to the tank and targets to engage. When he spots a target he will push a button and the turret will traverse to point the gun at the designated target and he will tell the gunner to engage while he continues to look around for threats or targets. His high position also means he gets a better view of the terrain than the driver down in the hull so he will often direct the driver from cover to cover too.

Thats correct , I think its called Hunter Killer System.

BTW i have read auto transmission or gear less would mean it would be expensive on fuel isnt it ?

BTW i have read auto transmission or gear less would mean it would be expensive on fuel isnt it ?

...miss a gear in a heavy vehicle and you often have to stop and start going up through the gears again because you lose your revs and momentum and it simply wont go into gear.

Auto transmissions often reduce fuel costs, and make driving much easier and much more efficient by preventing poor clutch skills losing power and revs.

Its possible that it has a autoloader at the rear , its also equally possible it doesnt have one , there are good reasons for both and I have heard both.

So we will need to wait till mid september to find out the specs once it reveled to public.

Well let me add one more reason.
If there is no autoloader in there, then this turret bustle is just extra space for equipment and ammo. If it is just that, why not just make it an external box for carrying extra ammo... it would be much simpler and cheaper. Any extra electronics could be stored in external boxes too much like the external fuel drums for long marches to the combat area.

Look at the distance from the rear of the extended turret area to the back of the bustle on the photo with the text on it... you would need the longest arms in the world to retrieve ammo back there...

GarryB wrote:

9. Information-controlled suspension (whatever that means)

Would be active suspension... would automatically increase the range of wheel movement in shock absorbing on rough country, while on flat hard surfaces it would be hard to provide an optimum ride over different surfaces.

And smother drive would also increase accuracy.

Going by what I've read on the Russian web, the turret bustle is a storage area for spare ammo and should also contain some other equipment. It's believed that the 'Armata' will have autoloader system based on the 'Black Eagle' system.

The T-90(A)M has a 'Sozvezdie-M2' unit (No:1 item on the above list) which could be part of a Brigade level C&C system

A couple more pics + a an earlier drawing (side view)



Source: http://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/274856.html?mode=reply&style=mine

All the pictures of T-90AM i have seen so far carefully hides the rear part ,I have yet to see a clear picture of turret bustle like the many of the frontal part i have seen.

The good part seems they have taken effort to cover the top part of the turret with K6

And smother drive would also increase accuracy.

Very true Viktor, the suspension will be working hard to make the ride as smooth as possible... this is good for the crew and reduces impacts for the electronics etc as well, but as Viktor points out it also makes it easier for the gun and sight stabilisation systems to keep optics and guns on targets while moving.

All the pictures of T-90AM i have seen so far carefully hides the rear part ,I have yet to see a clear picture of turret bustle like the many of the frontal part i have seen.

The picture you posted with the text on it is about the only side view I have seen, but then that is one of maybe 4-5 genuine photos of the real thing.

It is supposed to be revealed later this year at some show, so it will be interesting to see the spec board regarding how much ammo it carries.

The first talk about the T-90AM said that it had a new turret bustle autoloader. They never said it was as big as the one on the Black Eagle so there is no reason why a smaller turret bustle would preclude its existence.

One of the huge advantages of the Black Eagle autoloader was that handing individual stubs and projectiles into the turret hatches and putting them into the underfloor autoloader was slow and those combustable cases broke easily and were a serious fire risk.
The Black Eagle autoloader was designed to be removable so you went to the rear and a crane took off the empty autoloader and a new full autoloader was dropped into place like a rifle magazine and the vehicle drove back into battle.
The autoloader was basically an automated ammo rack that stored ammo horizontally so to load the gun would be set at a specific angle of elevation and the round was simply pushed from the turret bustle straight into the breach.

Similar autoloaders are used on 2S1 and 2S3 and MSTA I believe... basically because the ammo doesn't need handling... ie rotation, it is simply an autorammer from a mechanised ammo rack so a specific type of ammo can be rotated into position and rammed into the gun ready to fire.

The new T-90AM has larger hatches which should make things easier, but having to reach into the back of a narrow turret bustle to get projectiles and propellent stubs to then load into an underfloor ammo bin and then load into the main gun sounds silly to me.
It would make more sense for the gunner to just manually load the rounds in the rear turret bustle... and to do that a flat tray could be built in to the bottom of the bustle so that you can slide open an armoured door that separates the crew compartment from the bustle, slide a tray from the bustle area to the breach of the gun and slide projectiles and stub rounds from the bustle straight into the gun tube and then retract the tray and close the door and then fire.
This would be in the centre of the turret directly behind the gun and to one side of the commander and the gunner so it wouldn't be very easy for either to reach back and get rounds... unless the armoured door is huge.

The turret is bigger, but is filled with more electronics and equipment so I doubt there is a huge amount of room in the turret.

GarryB wrote:It is supposed to be revealed later this year at some show, so it will be interesting to see the spec board regarding how much ammo it carries.

It will be shown 10 days from now

Check this http://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/274856.html?mode=reply&style=mine

The weight is now ~ 50 T

and this http://vpk.name/news/57202_tank_t90s_obnovlennaya_versiya.html

I cant wait to see new APFSDS and its new capabilities.

New pic



The turret resembles the Omsk designed 'universal turret'


but seems different from the older pic (this one still has the K-5 ERA on the turret)


From 2010

I cant wait to see new APFSDS and its new capabilities.

I agree.

The new rounds will have interesting performance.

Of course it would be interesting to see the new 150+mm calibre rounds developed for the T-95... even just the actual calibre.

Clearly they think they can get good enough performance from the 125mm gun so they don't have to go to the expense and problems of adopting a new larger calibre.

A 150+mm gun would make an auto loader necessary, and would greatly reduce the amount of ready to use ammo, so the individual rounds would have to be very effective.

Well the stats on the bottom picture on this page:

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2011/09/new-information-pics-of-modernized-t-90.html

Say there are 40 rounds in the T-90M (it calls the tank T-90M... which is as good a designation for it as T-90AM as the in service Russian model is called T-90A while the export model is called the T-90S) with 22 rounds in the autoloader... meaning there are 18 rounds stored elsewhere in the vehicle.

In the T-90A and T-90S these 18 rounds are stored beside the drivers position and in the turret.

If what we are calling the T-90AM has the same ammo load I would expect the 18 loose rounds not in the autoloader to be in the turret bustle and separate from the crew compartment.

This suggests there is only the underfloor autoloader.

It is fairly unlikely that they would hand load rounds into the auto loader... the time it would take they might as well hand load the bustle rounds.

I am however hoping that there is an autoloader in the turret bustle and that this data is wrong... especially if very long rod penetrators are to be used they will be long and heavy items to drag into the crew compartment and load.

BTW I have been thinking some more about the two choices the Russian Army has right now... ie either buying a tiny amount of T-90AMs just to keep production available and then ramping up production when the Armata becomes available, or buying lots of T-90AMs now and switching the production to Armata when it is ready.

They have stated they want about 2000 tanks in operational service and maybe 5-6,000 more in storage.
Now in each tank regiment for heavy brigades they are going to be replacing a lot of different vehicles with tank chassis, so I suspect their problem will be made worse.

A Heavy tank brigade will have tanks and tank based vehicles including IFVs, APCs, artillery, air support vehicles, command vehicles, recovery vehicles, etc etc etc and to be useful they all need to be based on the same chassis.

This means that for every T-72 upgraded as a tank there are going to be a large number of other vehicles based on the T-72 chassis that will operate alongside the T-72s.

Perhaps the goal could be Relict ERA and slat armour on T-72 chassis with existing engines and transmissions till they are worn out and then replace them with new V-93 engines of the T-90AM as the "non tank vehicles" in the heavy brigades and also the 5-6,000 tanks in reserve and start producing numbers of T-90AMs now to use in active units till production switches over to Armata...

Considering the number of non tank vehicles needing tank chassis I think their might be a shortage of spare T-72s... 5-6,000 upgraded T-72s sounds like too many to me because for every one of those tanks there will be several tank like vehicles that will need tank chassis in the heavy brigades.

How many tanks are there in a tank brigade?

How many other vehicles are there?

What is the ratio of tanks to non tanks in a tank brigade?

If it is 8 to 1 then for 2,000 active tanks that is 16,000 tank based vehicles... which sounds like a lot.

The upgraded T-90 will have to undergo state tests before it's considered for service and how much it will cost. My guess is that it will enter service (in limited numbers) since the upgrades were introduced taking into account Min Def complaints/suggestions. But it's primary role is to enhance UVZ export offering.

Garry,

a tank bgd has about 100 tanks
a MR bgd has about 31-45 tanks

An article about the new T-90 in which the presence of a BMS is confirmed.....also some info on whether the Russian Army will order the new tank

In the modernized T-90AM, which UVZ-Nizhny Tagil are going to offer to the military, ammunition is not in the main compartment of the tank, but in a special isolated compartment at the rear of the turret. According to the authors, this line-up significantly increases the chances of crew survival in case of detonation of ammunition.

In addition, the tank is equipped with a new set of armor, "Relict" which is able to protect the tank from the majority of HEAT projectiles and missiles, a remote-controlled machine gun and a more powerful main gun.

Armorers hope that the military will approve of the refurbished tank.

- We expect to show the vehicle at the 8th international exhibition of arms, military equipment and ammunition, which will begin in Nizhny Tagil on September 8. We hope the new vehicle will be to the liking of the millitary - said the representative of the plant.
The Defense Ministry agreed that if the new tank removed most of the complaints about the T-90, it will order at Uralvagonzavod. However, the upgraded machine has turned out much more expensive than the original.

- We have not seen it yet, but confused by the high price. Of course, if it’s as good as reported, we will take the decision to buy – said to "Izvestia", the representative of the Land Forces of Russia.

One of the main advantages of the new tank is its integration into a unified system of tactical-level control – ESU-TZ (my comment: Constellation-M2). In this system, from the command post directly on the tank commander’s display will be transferred the enemy's coordinates.

Due to the panoramic sight which rotates 360 degrees, the tank commander and gunner are able to control all the space around the machine. In other tanks this was not possible.

However, some experts expressed doubts about the prospects of buying a new car by the Ministry of Defence as its head Anatoly Serdyukov has repeatedly said that before the advent of a fundamentally new machine, known as "Armata", the army should upgrade those tanks that are already in service in the armed forces.

However, an expert on armored vehicles, chief editor of "Arsenal" Victor Murakhovski, said in an interview to "Izvestia" that increase survivability of the new machine and its integration with ESU-TZ is a significant advantage over conventional T-90.

- Potential of an updated T-90 has increased significantly, and its mass production is necessary. We need to update the fleet of tanks right now, without waiting for the emergence of a fundamentally new car, "Armata" not to create a gap between tank generations - says Murakhovski


Source: www.izvestia.ru via http://www.militaryparitet.com/teletype/data/ic_teletype/12014/

Actually that is a very important aspect I didn't consider... when you decide to introduce a new C4IR system the system is only as good as the implimentation.

In other words the new T-90AM has an extended turret to allow for the net centric communication and control systems and BMSs.

An upgraded T-72 will need a new turret to take the new systems too.

If I can put it in computer terms they have a stack load of PCs but most are pentium 2s. They have some brand new computers being developed right now, but they are not ready yet, so in the mean time they have put together a temporary upgrade of the existing system that is not exactly cheap.

So lets say they have a lot of Pentium 2s (T-72s et al) and a few Apple graphics workstations (T-80s) that are good as they are but a dead end because they intend to go from 32 bit computing to 64 bit computing with the T-90AM. The Armata will be a 128 bit computer, but it is not ready yet.

They can either upgrade the Pentium 2s with basic upgrades which will be cheaper and probably quicker, but might send a message to UVZ that the Army is too cheap to fund high tech innovations so be conservative and keep the costs down in future.
The other option is to go for the T-90AM which will introduce multicore CPUs and 64 bit computing and will allow real netcentric practise and use through a significant portion of the Army quickly so that when Armata comes on line it can replace upgraded T-72s... the Armatas will not be cheap, so the old plans of the T-90 forming the back bone of the army tank force with the T-95 forming an elite minority could still be realised.

The firm that makes the BMS says it's working on integrating it into the T-90 and T-72. I don't think you need a new turret though.

Recent press release

http://www.sozvezdie.su/news/r1_p/razrabotku_ptk_dlya_bronemashin_v_sostave/

Comments made about the turret enlargement of the T-90AM turret in addition to the turret bustle was that all the new electronics and communications equipment required the extra space.

I think despite the fact that an upgraded T-72 is cheaper than a T-90AM the T-90AM is a better tank and the existing numbers of T-72 would make them more useful as other heavy vehicles in a T-90AM heavy brigade with their turrets in storage.

When the Armata enters production they could replace the T-72 based vehicles and tanks first... there is no way they could make a total of 8,000 T-90AMs so a mixed fleet of T-90/T-72upgraded tanks by 2015 is a given, and by then the price of the T-90AM will have gone down, though there would likely be a T-90AM2 by then with newer stuff that includes stuff developed for the Armata that will improve commonality between the two types.

Ok some interesting information on T-90AM izvestia.

http://www.izvestia.ru/news/499070

Uralvagonzavod improve the survivability of crew T-90

In a modernized T-90AM, which Nizhny Tagil gunsmiths are going to offer a military man, ammunition not available in the shell of the tank, but in a special isolated compartment at the rear of the tower.According to the authors, this arrangement greatly increases the chances of crew survival in case of detonation of ammunition.

If a traditional line-up between rounds and the crew there is no obstruction, there is ammunition separated from the people of armored bulkhead capable of withstanding an explosion - said the representative Uralvagonzavod.

In addition, the machine is equipped with a new set of armor, "Relic," which is able to protect the tank from the majority of HEAT projectiles and missiles, remote-controlled machine gun mount that can shoot through the near zone, and a more powerful gun.

Armourers hope refurbished tank will like the military.

We expect to show the car at the 8th international exhibition of arms, military equipment and ammunition, which will begin in Nizhny Tagil on September 8. We hope she will like the military - said the representative of the plant.

The Defense Ministry agreed that if the new tank removed most of the complaints about the T-90, it will order at Uralvagonzavod. However, the upgraded machine has turned out much more expensive than the original.

Of course, if he is so good, how about a talk, we will take the decision to buy - said, "Izvestia", the representative of the Land Forces of Russia.

One of the main advantages of the new tank in terms of military began its integration into a unified system of tactical-level managers - Yeosu TK. In this system, from the command post directly on the display will be transferred to the commander of the enemy's coordinates, which you can use one finger to fire.

Due to the panoramic sight which rotates 360 degrees, the tank commander and gunner are able to control all the space around the machine. In other tanks was not possible.

However, some experts expressed doubts about the prospects of buying a new car by the Ministry of Defence as its head Anatoly Serdyukov has repeatedly said that before the advent of a fundamentally new machine, known as the "Armata", the army should treat those tanks that are already in service in the armed forces.

However, an expert on armored vehicles, chief editor of "Arsenal" Victor Murakhovski, said in an interview to "News" that increase survivability of the new machine and its integration in Yeosu TK is a significant advantage over conventional T-90.

We need to update the fleet of tanks right now, without waiting for the emergence of a fundamentally new car, "Armata" not to create a gap between generations tank - says Murakhovski.

So Yeosu TK looks like a hunter killer system where the commander designates the target which gets offloaded to the gunner which can hit the target by flick of a button.

So its not a BMS that T-90AM has but a true Hunter Killer System ?

Oh sorry I misread it , the target are designated from command post , so i think if Yeosu TK can co-ordinate with all the tanks and the command post then its a true BMS