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Neither APFSDS rounds nor HEAT rounds are deflected by angled plate armour.
Only full calibre rounds are deflected by angled plate...
Only full calibre rounds are deflected by angled plate...
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T-90 Main Battle Tank
GarryB- Posts : 40553
Points : 41055
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Benya- Posts : 526
Points : 528
Join date : 2016-06-05
Location : Budapest, Hungary
GarryB wrote:Neither APFSDS rounds nor HEAT rounds are deflected by angled plate armour.
Only full calibre rounds are deflected by angled plate...
What happens then?
Werewolf- Posts : 5931
Points : 6120
Join date : 2012-10-24
Benya wrote:Arctic_Fox wrote:T-90M «Proryv-3»:
From Defence Blog.
Looks cool, but that bar-slat armor does not really eliminates that "shot trap" on the lower side of the turret front, at least it offers some protection against shaped charges like HEAT-FS shells or ATGMs/RPG grenades.
Some people never got over WW2...
Benya- Posts : 526
Points : 528
Join date : 2016-06-05
Location : Budapest, Hungary
Werewolf wrote:Benya wrote:Arctic_Fox wrote:T-90M «Proryv-3»:
From Defence Blog.
Looks cool, but that bar-slat armor does not really eliminates that "shot trap" on the lower side of the turret front, at least it offers some protection against shaped charges like HEAT-FS shells or ATGMs/RPG grenades.
Some people never got over WW2...
Sorry that I know a bit less about modern tank warfare than you, "Mr. Self-proclaimed Military Expert"
Werewolf- Posts : 5931
Points : 6120
Join date : 2012-10-24
There can not be shot traps for a few reasons in particular for exactly this or any russian tank.
They have not hard plate angled armor the incoming projectile would hit. It first hits ERA Tiles, which are very thin and soft and would not provide enough resistance to ricochet any fullbore round, which are not used anylonger. The ERA would only give an induced yaw to the incoming projectile (APFSDS) and bring it out of balance, which does not create a trapshot, neither giving it any advantage agaisnt the armor, but defeating it.
Other tanks could also not have shot traps only more or less visible weak spots like lower LOS to the turret ring, which all tanks have from some angles.
It just interesting to see people knowing some "terminology" such as trap shots but than continuing to use such terminology on forums. Do you got it from a video game or youtube?
They have not hard plate angled armor the incoming projectile would hit. It first hits ERA Tiles, which are very thin and soft and would not provide enough resistance to ricochet any fullbore round, which are not used anylonger. The ERA would only give an induced yaw to the incoming projectile (APFSDS) and bring it out of balance, which does not create a trapshot, neither giving it any advantage agaisnt the armor, but defeating it.
Other tanks could also not have shot traps only more or less visible weak spots like lower LOS to the turret ring, which all tanks have from some angles.
It just interesting to see people knowing some "terminology" such as trap shots but than continuing to use such terminology on forums. Do you got it from a video game or youtube?
Benya- Posts : 526
Points : 528
Join date : 2016-06-05
Location : Budapest, Hungary
A bit of 
Thanks for the info. Answers like this is what I would like to hear not, like this "Some people never got over WW2...", since it is a bit disrespectful.
A bit both. I play a lot of War Thunder (an online multiplayer game that features from Interwar (mid to late 20s and 30s) to early Cold War-era aircraft and tanks, and soon ships — No promotion intended, just mentioning — ). First heard about shot traps there when I was playing with tanks. I also heard about them in Youtube videos about tanks/tank warfare
Werewolf wrote:There can not be shot traps for a few reasons in particular for exactly this or any russian tank.
They have not hard plate angled armor the incoming projectile would hit. It first hits ERA Tiles, which are very thin and soft and would not provide enough resistance to ricochet any fullbore round, which are not used anylonger. The ERA would only give an induced yaw to the incoming projectile (APFSDS) and bring it out of balance, which does not create a trapshot, neither giving it any advantage agaisnt the armor, but defeating it.
Other tanks could also not have shot traps only more or less visible weak spots like lower LOS to the turret ring, which all tanks have from some angles.
Thanks for the info. Answers like this is what I would like to hear not, like this "Some people never got over WW2...", since it is a bit disrespectful.
Werewolf wrote:It just interesting to see people knowing some "terminology" such as trap shots but than continuing to use such terminology on forums. Do you got it from a video game or youtube?
A bit both. I play a lot of War Thunder (an online multiplayer game that features from Interwar (mid to late 20s and 30s) to early Cold War-era aircraft and tanks, and soon ships — No promotion intended, just mentioning — ). First heard about shot traps there when I was playing with tanks. I also heard about them in Youtube videos about tanks/tank warfare
GarryB- Posts : 40553
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Location : New Zealand
A shot trap is where an angled plate deflects the incoming round to hit a more vulnerable area... ie in this case if we were talking about actual angled plate armour instead of NERA or ERA then the angle of the armour might deflect a round downwards to hit the turret ring, which is always a vulnerable spot on any tank.
The problem is that only full calibre rounds are deflected by angled armour plate... HEAT rounds and APFSDS are not deflected, though angled armour does increase the actual amount of armour needing to be penetrated by the round so it is still useful.
The problem is that only full calibre rounds are deflected by angled armour plate... HEAT rounds and APFSDS are not deflected, though angled armour does increase the actual amount of armour needing to be penetrated by the round so it is still useful.
franco
franco- Posts : 7057
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Join date : 2010-08-18
The latest upgrade of the tank "Vladimir", created by Uralvagonzavod on "Breakthrough" - T-90M - will be armed not worse than the famous "Almaty was" told "Star" military expert Alexei Leonov.
- Tank T-90M on "Breakthrough" - a deep modernization of the "Vladimir", it will be 400 tanks faced by the Russian Army. The car will receive an upgraded 125-mm smoothbore gun 2A82-1M - the same as that of "Almaty was" - and a new fire control system, characterized by high accuracy, rate of fire and increased up to 900 shots resource - the expert said.
The gun that has a 17 percent greater muzzle energy and 20 percent more accurate tools German tank Leopard 2. Automatic loader allows the use of ammunition up to a meter in length - for example, designed for the "Almaty was" armor-piercing projectiles high power "vacuum".
Ammunition T-90M consists of 45 rounds in the autoloader and removable boeukladki aft tower. Depending on the assigned task tank can carry any of the ammunition in the machine for the urban battlefield, or a full supply for duels in open terrain. In addition to the upgraded gun shells "Vladimir" fired guided missiles "Invar" and "Invar-M" with a tandem warhead - at a distance of five kilometers they hit any foreign armored vehicles: a standing armed and promising.
For protection against enemy fire a tank equipped with a set of active and dynamic protection "Malachite" and the "Afghani". The lower part of the tower further cover Spaced Armour. The tank was installed a new fire control system "Kalina", integrated into the information management system for tactical level. Surveillance commander and gunner to effectively allow a lone goal to seek day and night, in place and in motion.
NOTE: no time line yet for modernization to start
- Tank T-90M on "Breakthrough" - a deep modernization of the "Vladimir", it will be 400 tanks faced by the Russian Army. The car will receive an upgraded 125-mm smoothbore gun 2A82-1M - the same as that of "Almaty was" - and a new fire control system, characterized by high accuracy, rate of fire and increased up to 900 shots resource - the expert said.
The gun that has a 17 percent greater muzzle energy and 20 percent more accurate tools German tank Leopard 2. Automatic loader allows the use of ammunition up to a meter in length - for example, designed for the "Almaty was" armor-piercing projectiles high power "vacuum".
Ammunition T-90M consists of 45 rounds in the autoloader and removable boeukladki aft tower. Depending on the assigned task tank can carry any of the ammunition in the machine for the urban battlefield, or a full supply for duels in open terrain. In addition to the upgraded gun shells "Vladimir" fired guided missiles "Invar" and "Invar-M" with a tandem warhead - at a distance of five kilometers they hit any foreign armored vehicles: a standing armed and promising.
For protection against enemy fire a tank equipped with a set of active and dynamic protection "Malachite" and the "Afghani". The lower part of the tower further cover Spaced Armour. The tank was installed a new fire control system "Kalina", integrated into the information management system for tactical level. Surveillance commander and gunner to effectively allow a lone goal to seek day and night, in place and in motion.
NOTE: no time line yet for modernization to start
George1- Posts : 18524
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Location : Greece
According to Leonkov, Russia is going to upgrade 400 T-90 battle tanks to the T-90M level.
https://sputniknews.com/military/201701211049856690-t-90m-armata-cannon-russia/
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
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They are going to put the 2A82/82M on these tanks but because of hull floor they will have to keep same autoloader (thus same rounds).
This only means that hull will get stretched or gutted. More weld feuds to come
This only means that hull will get stretched or gutted. More weld feuds to come
franco- Posts : 7057
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Priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!^^^^^^^^
Viktor- Posts : 5796
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KoTeMoRe wrote:They are going to put the 2A82/82M on these tanks but because of hull floor they will have to keep same autoloader (thus same rounds).
This only means that hull will get stretched or gutted. More weld feuds to come
Please explain? Why would it be impossible to place a upgraded autoloader that would be able to accommodate 200mm longer rods?
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
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Viktor wrote:KoTeMoRe wrote:They are going to put the 2A82/82M on these tanks but because of hull floor they will have to keep same autoloader (thus same rounds).
This only means that hull will get stretched or gutted. More weld feuds to come
Please explain? Why would it be impossible to place a upgraded autoloader that would be able to accommodate 200mm longer rods?
Let me help you with a visual aid.
This is the current Carousel system, for obvious reasons you can't without rebuilding the hull, use elongated trays. The MS solves some of the memory problems by transferring the relevant electronics on turret.
But having a 20 cm longer warheads means that the rounds will not be able to move to the breech in the current size specifications on the hull and that a hull stretching or gutting will be forced upon. Unless the autoloader goes back to T-80 solutions (which again will be difficult for a 20 cm longer warhead).
Basically, this means NEW Autoloader with new rolling rammer instead of chain rammer as now. Don't worry I'm not dissing UVZ, just saying some statements are a bit more complicated than what they seem.
KomissarBojanchev- Posts : 1429
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Does the lack of new shells mean that the proryv 3 will have the same penetration as the T-90MS?
Also isnt 5km already to little for a modern ATGM. lahat has 8km+ range since the early 2000s.
Also isnt 5km already to little for a modern ATGM. lahat has 8km+ range since the early 2000s.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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KomissarBojanchev wrote:Does the lack of new shells mean that the proryv 3 will have the same penetration as the T-90MS?
Also isnt 5km already to little for a modern ATGM. lahat has 8km+ range since the early 2000s.
The question is how will the Lahat be guided at 8+ km? Merkava tanks optics wont reach that far so it is kind of pointless. Reason for the ATGM on the T-90 and others is optics really do not extend more than 5km so no point putting on something just for the sake of it so it sounds cool.
If the autoloader cannot handle longer rounds that are newer, then it wont get them. Big thing about the 2A82 cannon is that it has far more pressure than the 2A46 and so much higher in kenetic energy. So even standard rounds can do more damage.
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
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KomissarBojanchev wrote:Does the lack of new shells mean that the proryv 3 will have the same penetration as the T-90MS?
Also isnt 5km already to little for a modern ATGM. lahat has 8km+ range since the early 2000s.
Lahat has 8Km by being guided from a different post than the tag in the Merkava. Basically the Lahat is just the AGM-114 scaled down and modified for multiple platforms. Russia already has a technology that is exactly equivalent in the Hermes seeker. Cut out the booster stage and you have a 1.6m long/ 130mm rocket with FF ability. And then you have the usual problem with the autoloader. Do you see the problem now?
GarryB- Posts : 40553
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It is a shame that the 125mm uses two piece ammo where the APFSDS round has a lot of extra propellent on it.
If it did not have that extra propellent then you could give it a rear turret bustle that just carried APFSDS penetrators. That would mean even if penetrated then it would be no risk of fire to the crew and you could put as many long rod penetrators in there as you liked.
The main threat to the crew of ammo being hit is when HE rounds explode... which detonates everything at once with obvious lethal results for the crew.
Having APFSDS rounds in the turret bustle exposed to enemy fire but separated from the crew by an automated loading system that only opens when passing rounds in to the gun would minimise the risk to the crew... allow rather more ready to fire rounds of ammo with much longer penetrators to be carried.
Blow out panels in the roof could be used to redirect any propellent fire away from the crew compartment and other ammo....
If it did not have that extra propellent then you could give it a rear turret bustle that just carried APFSDS penetrators. That would mean even if penetrated then it would be no risk of fire to the crew and you could put as many long rod penetrators in there as you liked.
The main threat to the crew of ammo being hit is when HE rounds explode... which detonates everything at once with obvious lethal results for the crew.
Having APFSDS rounds in the turret bustle exposed to enemy fire but separated from the crew by an automated loading system that only opens when passing rounds in to the gun would minimise the risk to the crew... allow rather more ready to fire rounds of ammo with much longer penetrators to be carried.
Blow out panels in the roof could be used to redirect any propellent fire away from the crew compartment and other ammo....
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
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GarryB wrote:It is a shame that the 125mm uses two piece ammo where the APFSDS round has a lot of extra propellent on it.
If it did not have that extra propellent then you could give it a rear turret bustle that just carried APFSDS penetrators. That would mean even if penetrated then it would be no risk of fire to the crew and you could put as many long rod penetrators in there as you liked.
The main threat to the crew of ammo being hit is when HE rounds explode... which detonates everything at once with obvious lethal results for the crew.
Having APFSDS rounds in the turret bustle exposed to enemy fire but separated from the crew by an automated loading system that only opens when passing rounds in to the gun would minimise the risk to the crew... allow rather more ready to fire rounds of ammo with much longer penetrators to be carried.
Blow out panels in the roof could be used to redirect any propellent fire away from the crew compartment and other ammo....
You could actually do it the AMX-140 way. Crew doesn't touch the ammo at all unless you reload rack. Direct armored funnel from bustle to breech.
That's just a design constraint. With the new semi-oscillating turret on the T-95 that I hope integrated in the T14, the rounds will be whole. But even with the current space if they manage to move most electronics out of the ring, then there would be more space. How much more space...that's another question.
Also Object 640 did the exact same thing. Stretched Hull, plus rack. So if the Rack was proven a liability on the battlefield, you could go back to a traditional autoloader and have space for longer rounds.
Cheetah- Posts : 139
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So, i came across this video today (from mid 2016) of a T-90 that has supposedly taken a few hits somewhere in Syria.
Forget about the second half of the video.
I was wondering if the damage seen in the video has been created by RPGs or other HEAT type rockets, or if it is from some large calibre gun.
I know that the gaping hole in wheel at the start of the video seems akin to the damage caused by a rocket but the damage to the Shtora dazzlers seems more like it's just been shot up with a gun.
In any event, looks like it's taken a beating and is still soldiering on. good on it.
Forget about the second half of the video.
I was wondering if the damage seen in the video has been created by RPGs or other HEAT type rockets, or if it is from some large calibre gun.
I know that the gaping hole in wheel at the start of the video seems akin to the damage caused by a rocket but the damage to the Shtora dazzlers seems more like it's just been shot up with a gun.
In any event, looks like it's taken a beating and is still soldiering on. good on it.
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
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Roadwheel shot is RPG/SPG, Hit on Shtora I sdifficult to asses, looks like 12.7. But TIS has been blown away. Pretty much gone head on in a strong point. The rest looks like a lot of small calibble and schrapnel.
George1- Posts : 18524
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T-90A in Syria
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2679257.html
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2679257.html
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3919
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That land is Opuk Crimea. Look it up if you do not believe me.
If I remember right this is an older thing been there since like 2015
If I remember right this is an older thing been there since like 2015
PapaDragon- Posts : 13474
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George1 wrote:T-90A in Syria
..............
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2679257.html
I honestly can't believe that there are people out there who think that this could be from Syria
Those two would be dead from heatstroke before first photo would have been snapped
Arctic_Fox- Posts : 158
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T-90MS:
George1- Posts : 18524
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So Russian Army will receive T-90M.
AFAIK its a modernized of T-90A.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2808456.html
Anyone can find more info on contract? Number of tanks, modernization of old T-90As or new built T-90M?
AFAIK its a modernized of T-90A.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2808456.html
Anyone can find more info on contract? Number of tanks, modernization of old T-90As or new built T-90M?