S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

1)How it will counter if these f-16 carry HARM , each F-16 can carry 4 HARMs , if these were 30 F-16 they could carry a total of 120 HARMs , that is 120 missiles moving at speed > mach 2 ?

Even if the S-400 battery was shut down at the time the Pantsir systems colocated with the battery can deal with 4 HARM speed threats each at one time... that means with 8 vehicles that is 32 targets that can be destroyed simultaneously and if they are detected and fired upon at max range because of the high speed of both weapons the Pantsir should get at least three volleys of missiles off before the HARMs get within 10km.

The S-400 battery wont be asleep however and the 450km range big missile can shoot down F-16s well outside the effective or even ballistic range of any model HARM.

So F-16s will be getting shot down well before they can even launch a weapon.

2)What is the minimum engagement altitude for the S-400. I do not think that Almaz-Antey has ever released a minimum engagement altitude for the S-400,but would expect it to be in the region of 10 m. ( If they fire HARM at ultra low altitude ?)

HARM would have its max range reduced by 75% if it flys at 10m or lower and at such an altitude it would not get any signal from the S-400 target battery and have nothing to home in on.

It would also be dramatically slower and its rocket motor much less efficient at such altitudes even if it could operate at such altitudes (which I highly doubt.)

3) I have seen no reports that the S-400 has the equivalent of a US-style 'launch on remote' capability, so the engagement radar would probably still have to be used ?

S-400 uses a datalink and could be directed to targets its own radars cannot see but platforms closer to the target can... ie an Su-30 or Su-34 could pass target data for the missile to find its target... obviously it is intended for AWACS style aircraft to do that but ships and other aircraft would be just as able.

4)we may seen the system's 92N6 engagement radar being used in a fairly aggressive manner to illuminate Turkish aircraft operating in the area. So the Turks (with a bit of help from other NATO nations?) may be able to devise flight patterns that will explore the tracking capabilities of the 92N6 ?

What? Sounds like you are talking about a naked mad man standing next to a pool of water at midnight exploring the ripple reflections of moonlight on his ass... what do you think he can learn apart from the fact that his ass needs a good wash.

5)In the 1960s the S-75 (SA-2) radiated all of its secrets - when the US finally acquired a 'Fan Song' radar, its EW community was delighted to discover that the SA-2 emulator it had devised for EW development purposes had reproduced the features and technology of the Soviet original in all but a few minor respects .The US / NATO / Israeli EW operators had actually assigned individual identities to specific Fan Song installations based on the dents on their antennas! When they moved they could follow them individually.

Old systems were custom made and very expensive and mostly hardware limited in terms of performance. the S-400 is modern hardware that will still get upgrades but it will be totally modular and software driven.

By your argument why would NATO need to listen at all considering the S-300 of the 1980s was made with a lot of western electronic components, and more importantly a lot of countries that operated S-300 systems are now in bed with NATO so the whole system can be assumed to be totally compromised... yet in tests and exercises and training it still seems to be a capable system...

Let's think logically here, what has a longer engagement range, HARM or S-400? And rocket for rocket, which has more, Pantsir-S1 or F-16? I also doubt the feasibility of a 30-plane formation all at once.

More importantly... how suspicious would a 30 plane formation be to an S-400 battery?

Keeping in mind the naval component can also assist by engaging some targets too.

How exactly I'm supposed to quote non-existent members here in my post ? Thats why I said doubts because I follow other forums too and there they haven't granted me posting rights yet , so whenever I read something strange or challenging i usually ask/ confirm those same questions here?

Perhaps he felt you were not being totally honest and that you might use the answers here on the other forum to make it look like you have better knowledge than you actually do... if you had been totally open to begin with these ideas would never have formed...

I have come across a few people who would ask me questions in a wind up sort of a way to get me to argue with them because they were having the same argument on another forum and they were basically using their opponents arguments against me so I would in effect be arguing for them on the other forum. I find such people very annoying.

Thanx for the heads up.

I already mentioned above I don't have posting rights on the other forum. That's why I asked it here otherwise I could have asked it there only. I only have viewing rights, by the way I've been confirming various claims made by others on how to counter specific Russian equipment on this forum,not to argue with other posters but only for my knowledge. You can check the other forum if you doubt my intentions.


I don't think it matters if your knowledge on military is mediocre, that's why I am here to learn.

max steel wrote:Radars and EW systems have multiple operating modes. The most commonly used mode is the training/peacetime mode which provides basic functionality. Then there are wartime/contingency modes which use sophisticated, closely guarded techniques.  NATO, like they couldn't have done the same thing with the S-400's stationed in Kaliningrad in a far more hostile SIGINT enviroment.

Just because an S-400 is deployed doesn't mean anyone will learn about all its features and operating modes.The S-400 will likely operate in strict EMCON rules. 92N6 radar which i believe would be the most interesting part for ELINT may only radiate if need arise. Most of the time it won't radiate and stay in standby.

Most of the early warning will come from already existing radar.


I've more doubts , help me out pointwise :

1)How it will counter if these f-16 carry HARM , each F-16 can carry 4 HARMs , if these were 30 F-16 they could carry a total of 120 HARMs , that is 120 missiles moving at speed > mach 2 ?

2)What is the minimum engagement altitude for the S-400. I do not think that Almaz-Antey has ever released a minimum engagement altitude for the S-400,but would expect it to be in the region of 10 m. ( If they fire HARM at ultra low altitude ?)

3) I have seen no reports that the S-400 has the equivalent of a US-style 'launch on remote' capability, so the engagement radar would probably still have to be used ?

4)we may seen the system's 92N6 engagement radar being used in a fairly aggressive manner to illuminate Turkish aircraft operating in the area. So the Turks (with a bit of help from other NATO nations?) may be able to devise flight patterns that will explore the tracking capabilities of the 92N6 ?


5)In the 1960s the S-75 (SA-2) radiated all of its secrets - when the US finally acquired a 'Fan Song' radar, its EW community was delighted to discover that the SA-2 emulator it had devised for EW development purposes had reproduced the features and technology of the Soviet original in all but a few minor respects .The US / NATO / Israeli EW operators had actually assigned individual identities to specific Fan Song installations based on the dents on their antennas! When they moved they could follow them individually.  

Countermeasures aganist HARM and similar missiles are:

1. imitators of radar radiation, they even exist as separate countermeasures

2. active protection systems

3. MAWS paired with "dead man switch", but that would work aganist ALARM

4. Full sized decoy targets of the system paired with decoy emitters

5. SHORAD



"The “Gazetchik-E” (34Ya6E) radar defense system is designed to defend radar systems against anti-radar missiles (ARM) by briefly deactivating transmission based on commands from an independent ARM detector, combined with the use of diversionary devices in the radar system frequency range, as well as aerosol and dipole jamming of ARM guidance systems with self-guided thermal, TV, and active RF heads. "

So it basically has:

1. Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) to detect inbound ARMs.
2. Chaff dispenser to defeat MMWI weapon seekers.
3. Aerosol (smoke) generator to defeat electro-optical seekers / sensors.
4. Decoy emitter operating in the band of the defended emitter.





KRTZ-125-2M Decoy system (Belarus):





Serbian soldiers placing their imitator in 1999. they were mostly produced from refubrished parts from anti ship missiles and retired MiG21 radars.

announcment for Regiment No 11 - obviously St. Petersburg, as long expected
http://www.interfax.ru/russia/481385

rambo54 wrote:announcment for Regiment No 11 - obviously St. Petersburg, as long expected
http://www.interfax.ru/russia/481385

Yandex

Moscow. November 25. INTERFAX.RU - Two sets of the latest anti-aircraft missile systems (SRCS) long range s-400 "Triumph" entered service connection of the aerospace defence forces of the Western military district, stationed in the Leningrad region, have informed "Interfax" on Wednesday the head of the press service of the district Colonel Oleg Kochetkov.

hahaha i mean really???
you can tell those statements are stupid.
any gathering of 10-20-50-etc... f-16 by turks would get noticed by satelites ,su-27s , or other intell ,and then- its tactical nuke time.
Russia just needs 1 iskander at hmeihim (which it probably secretly has there already) ,and 1 tac nuke from its vaast reserves and- ooops there goes the turkish base before fighters even take-off. Even Moskva cruiser could have a tactical nuke onboard - we just dont know.

Study russian doctrine -it allows for use of tac nuke weapons if conventional forces are overwhelmed ,and combine it with preemptive strike concept and there you go.!

Massing so many fighters  would be a clear signal that turkey is about to escalate and murder many more russian soldiers ,so why not go full war anyway.
Even if they achieve their goals and somehow surprise and destroy s-400, by the time they land back nuclear tipped Iskander ,which is impossible to intercept by medium AD turkey has ,will be catching up. seriously...roasted turkey anyone??

They don't even need to use it. Russia has 4 su-30 + is sending 10-12 more su-27sm/30 (Since the accident I think there is always 1 or 2 equipt and ready to fight. Turkish air bases must be well watched by spies, special forces and satelites). All this, with the 30 S-400's missile and Pantsir can easily deal with 20-30 f-16.

Maybe not shoot all of them but at least 10-15, the others will return to their homebase.

Turkey's ballistic missiles e.g. Yildirim 2/3 are also a significant threat which S-400 capabilities may be needed for...???

mutantsushi wrote:Turkey's ballistic missiles e.g. Yildirim 2/3 are also a significant threat which S-400 capabilities may be needed for...???

To my knowledge Yildirm 3 is not in service.

How to counter attacks on S-400s?

In time of "peace" or undeclared war.. the engagement rules are different
than in times of war..  In "peace" times the enemy will benefit more with Russia
engagement rules.. because Turkey or US can fly near Syrian border..or inside Syria
in the case of Americans. and backstab Russian plane when its looking into another direction..
or get very close to a military base.. etc..

In time of war all Change. you cannot measure S-400s capabilities fully now..
because there is not yet war between Russia and Turkey or US or Both. So Russian
enemies could try to backstab Russia again..  in theory for example Israel could fly in lebanon
close to Russia and help guide a missile to hit them..

In a time of war..a no fly zone will be created not only in Syria but also in the hostile territory attacking Russia. This give a huge advantage because the S-400s can shot down Turkey planes before they can launch a missile.  Tomahawks cruise missiles can be jammed its GPS guidance.
Ballistic missiles intercepted by S-400..   and if Electronic counter measures and S-400s fail..
for whatever reason.. lets say overwhelmed in a surprise attack... Russia have decoys.. that can fool enemy missiles into hitting the wrong target. Then you have Russian Airforce and Syrian
Airforce that will pushing away any NATO plane or Israeli plane from any dangerous plane.
COmbat planes also need to "Stand its nose still" pointing at the target it want to destroy.
Or AWACS do the same.  If an attack happen ,the plane can be retaliated so it lose the aiming.

Is similar to the TOW missile.. you need to guide the missile until it hits the target.. but if a tank round quickly locate the hostile attack..it can quickly find the source and blow up the hostile attacker before it leads the missile to its intended target.  So any NATO plane or AWAC will be now fully aimed in the cross hairs of Russian planes..and S-400s, so if they launch any missile at Russia.

Russian defenses to harm will be S-400s,Pantsirs,Electronic Warfare,Decoys ,and Russian airforce. It will be impossible for any NATO plane to attack with an air to surface missile Russia base..without being blow up.. by Russian airforce.. because you can't engage in combat a plane even less do maneuvers ,while guiding a missile towards a military base.

So is not impossible but neither it will be easy if Russia do things right... the major problem
Russia face is Syria territory that 50% of it is occupied by terrorist. So Russian military bases
could be shelled by artillery. Or NATO special forces in terrorist controlled zones.. could
help to guide missiles.  but it will be crazy if Any Modern Sane nation attack Russia military base. the retaliation will be a nuclear strike.. So is not the style of Americans to be in the frontline in any war. They instead will preffer to use turkey and the terrorist they give weapons.

So Syria is one of the worse places in the world to deploy S-400s and defend them.
Because is surrounded by enemies..the country is small and if that wans't enough bad
half of it controlled by terrorist. So it will be a real test for Russia to defend Syria airspace
under so extreme environment.

You even have British BIG Radars just 100km from Russia base.. in Cyprus east.. the territories.
So UK can help guide missiles from Cyprus.. and then Israelis planes can fly freely up to 60km near the Russian base using Lebanon airspace. then have Turkey electronic warfare in Syria border..You need big territory in your control with flat terrain.. to better take advantage of your missile range.. Mountainous terrain are blind spots. that any airforce can use to hide from RAdars. So Syria is not an ideal place to defend its airspace.. to make things worse Russia don't have more military bases ,something that a big airforce patrolling can help.


All said Syria is not ideal the enviroment for Russia to create a bullet proof defense..but still Russia can defend it..and make it very costly for any agressor.. Specially from Cruise missiles that use GPS guidance..since Russia can block GPS.

30 Turkish fighters would be a turkey shoot... forgive the pun.

Such an appealing target... wait till it crosses the Turkish Syrian border and then waste them with S-400 missiles... they wont even see them coming...

New Turkish EW System Hardly a Threat to S-400


Turkey deployed its newest electronic warfare (EW) system near the border with Syria, according to the Turkish daily Milliyet.According to the newspaper, the system, called Koral and manufactured by the Turkish corporation ASELSAN, is an analogue of the Russian Krasukha EW system and is meant to counter the Russian S-400 Triumf surface-to-air missile deployed at the Hmeymim airbase in Syria.


"Koral is a ground-based EW system, and in order to effectively counter surface-to-air missiles, especially the kind of missiles that the S-400 uses – missiles that are specifically designed to withstand enemy electronic countermeasures – you need air-based EW systems," Mikheev told media. "You need the analogues of our Rychag or Khibiny systems, and Turkey has nothing of that kind. Obviously, the US has such systems, but it doesn’t export that kind of equipment even to its NATO allies."

( Really US had Khibiny and Rychag equivalents ? )

Mikheev also remarked that it would be imprudent to underestimate the Turkish EW equipment designers, though much of the Koral’s capabilities remain unknown as it was only presented to the public this year.



Meanhile : S-400 Missile Systems Successfully Test-Fired

max steel wrote:New Turkish EW System Hardly a Threat to S-400


Turkey deployed its newest electronic warfare (EW) system near the border with Syria, according to the Turkish daily Milliyet.According to the newspaper, the system, called Koral and manufactured by the Turkish corporation ASELSAN, is an analogue of the Russian Krasukha EW system and is meant to counter the Russian S-400 Triumf surface-to-air missile deployed at the Hmeymim airbase in Syria.


"Koral is a ground-based EW system, and in order to effectively counter surface-to-air missiles, especially the kind of missiles that the S-400 uses – missiles that are specifically designed to withstand enemy electronic countermeasures – you need air-based EW systems," Mikheev told media. "You need the analogues of our Rychag or Khibiny systems, and Turkey has nothing of that kind. Obviously, the US has such systems, but it doesn’t export that kind of equipment even to its NATO allies."

( Really US had Khibiny and Rychag equivalents ? )  

Mikheev also remarked that it would be imprudent to underestimate the Turkish EW equipment designers, though much of the Koral’s capabilities remain unknown as it was only presented to the public this year.



Meanhile : S-400 Missile Systems Successfully Test-Fired

if you are to believe in Pentagon claims.. or US experts from aviation week website..
They have told US EW is about 10% of Russia achievements in Electronic warfare. That
Russia EW is way advanced. But no idea if their claims are correct or not. but it looks like
Russia have been more successful with it. Since they advertise their as best in the world.
all the way to jamming Aegis defense . At least Russian media claims.  it also was claimed
by voltaire.net that Russia jammed Patriot missiles in Turkey from the germans team and why they were removed to be improved.

Someone posted a voice video of Aviation week ,staff when were discussing the Russian last
Expo of military equipment in 2015.. where EW of Russia was present and so far they told it was way ahead of American EW equipment. and those are people that usually are biased towards American hardware.

So when it comes to electronic warfare ,is kind of funny that the biggest propaganda i have seen
comes from American sources ,like Aviation week or Pentagon experts.. so maybe they know something. And if you mix that with Russia advertising ,that say is the best in the world.. then you end with both sides American and Russians agreeing that Russia have more advanced EW than NATO.

NATO breedlove general even in public told was shocked with EW by Russia used in Ukraine.
how serious threat was the Russian jamming capabilities to their NATO forces. So it looks like
indeed Russia do have an edge there.

Aegis was never jammed. Be real.

max steel wrote:Aegis was never jammed. Be real.

...Meanwhile NATO's very own Ben Hodges is on record saying that Russian ECM assets utilized in Ukraine was "Eye Watering"...It should also be pointed out that Murmansk-BN was deployed in the Crimean based BSF back in 2014.

https://twitter.com/Missilito/status/540047595419496448

Check aegis thread . Ukraine's joint exercise comment has nothing to do with aegis ship buzzing. Fanboys exist on both the sides.

max steel wrote:Check aegis thread .  Ukraine's joint exercise comment has nothing to do with aegis ship buzzing. Fanboys exist on both the sides.

Keep dreaming, you still haven't disproved what I've stated.

Vann7 wrote:In time of war all Change. you cannot measure S-400s capabilities fully now..

So if the S-400/S-500 hits an incoming ICBM armed with a nuclear warhead(Trident etc) what happens then? Is the nuclear warhead destroyed completely?

jhelb wrote:

Vann7 wrote:In time of war all Change. you cannot measure S-400s capabilities fully now..

So if the S-400/S-500 hits an incoming ICBM armed with a nuclear warhead(Trident etc) what happens then? Is the nuclear warhead destroyed completely?

S-500 will have SABM capabilities, S-400 has some TABM capabilities. Destroying a nuclear ballistic missile is all you need, to prevent it from detonation, the hazard after that is getting rid of it and the cleaning up radioactive material and pollution that was created with the explosion.

I am not so sure about how safe such interceptions are not creating the opposite result of what is indented. I don't think that a nuke and its core can become a critical mass without an intended detonator of its design. I would assume that detonation from outside will not result in a critical mass and nuclear explosion.

Several S-400 air defense systems put on combat duty in northwest of Russia — official

The S-400 Triumph is a Russian-made long/medium-range surface-to-air missile system designed for dealing with all current and in-development aircraft and aerospace-launched weapons

MOSCOW, December 10. /TASS/. The S-400 Triumph air defense missile systems (NATO reporting name: SA-21 Growler) have been put on trial combat duty in the northwest of Russia, spokesman for the Western Military District Colonel Igor Muginov said on Thursday.

"Several S-400 Triumph long-range air defense missile systems have been put on trial combat duty today," he said.

The S-400 Triumph is a Russian-made long/medium-range surface-to-air missile system designed for dealing with all current and in-development aircraft and aerospace-launched weapons. The Triumph destroys aerodynamic targets (e.g. cruise missiles and tactical and strategic warplanes) at a range of 400 km and ballistic threats (battlefield ballistic missile warheads travelling at a speed of 4.8 km/s) at 60 km. The S-400’s radars have a 600-km target acquisition range and its 48N6E3 missiles engage aerodynamic targets at an altitude of 10-27,000 m and ballistic ones within the 2-25,000-m altitude bracket.

New anti-aircraft missile regiment of S-300PM on combat duty in the archipelago of Novaya Zemlya.

















http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1620448.html

Aegis was never jammed. Be real.

AEGIS couldn't tell the difference between an ascending Airbus A320 and a descending F-14 Tomcat...

So if the S-400/S-500 hits an incoming ICBM armed with a nuclear warhead(Trident etc) what happens then? Is the nuclear warhead destroyed completely?

A nuclear warhead is a complex arrangement of explosive charges design to energetically force several lumps of fissile material together rapidly with a huge amount of force. Damage it with an external explosion and a nuclear explosion is very unlikely. Some localised radiation issues where the payload falls but rather less of an issue than if the missile had reached its detonation point.

Korotchenko: the Russian armed forces may soon receive the first experimental examples of the s-500


http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151211/1340323272.html

MOSCOW, 11 Dec — RIA Novosti. Russia's armed forces will soon receive the first samples of the newest anti-aircraft missile system s-500, believes the member of the public Council of the defense Ministry, the famous military expert Igor Korotchenko.
"Huge attention is paid to the creation of a system of aerospace defense. Sounded figures associated with the increased pace of supplies to the aerospace defence forces of Russia anti-aircraft missile systems long-range s-400. On completion of the tests and the first experimental use of s-500", — he told journalists on Friday on the results of the expanded Board of the Ministry of defense of the Russian Federation.

Korotchenko also noted that "today the Russian Armed forces demonstrate remarkable progress by the end of 2014-2015. This is one of the best armies in the world, which can guarantee the security of our country for the next few decades".

Earlier it was reported that the start of operation and Jogging duty s latest generation, according to preliminary estimates, scheduled for 2017.
S-500 belongs to a new generation of antiaircraft missile systems "earth-air". It is a universal complex long-range and high-altitude interception with increased potential missile defense and is able to intercept ballistic missiles. Promising air defense missile system capable of hitting not only ballistic, but also aerodynamic targets (aircraft, helicopters and other air targets), as well as cruise missiles.
S-500 has a radius of 600 kilometers and will be capable of detecting and simultaneously hit up to 10 ballistic supersonic targets flying at speeds up to 7 kilometers per second, as well as to be able to defeat warheads hypersonic missiles. According to its characteristics s-500 will significantly exceed standing armed with s-400 and its us competitor, the Patriot Advanced Capability-3.

yum yum

PAC-3 competitor to S400. Are ya kidding?

max steel wrote:PAC-3 competitor to S400. Are ya kidding?

Nothing else to compare to when comparing such air defense systems from US. PAC-3 is supposed to be such a system and it apparently is a giant failure overall as well (as you mentioned in earlier threads on Yemen conflict).