S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Stealthflanker wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:

The NEBO-M can feed the data to the flap lid, and that can guide the missile, and the terminal phase it illuminate the target + collect the data from missile + command the missile to the target with the information from the NEBO-M and big bird.

The radar in the missile have better characteristic in the last ten km compared to the flap lid used as radar illuminator .

what do you mean "Radar in the missile" ?

and since we all know both SAGG and TVM are offshoots from SARH, it definitely needs a radar that work in the SAME band as what the seeker use to provide illumination.

All missile has S-400 a passive radar in the nose, few has active radar as well.

The illuminator is the flap lid.

Singular_Transform wrote:

All missile has S-400 a passive radar in the nose, few has active radar as well.

The illuminator is the flap lid.

Then i suggest you somehow arrange your sentence into something more understandable. It is hard to discern what you are trying to say.

No, only 9M96 and 40N6. and the former is not integrated.

48N6DM has no radar and ARH is not guided. Only 9M96 has active homing. There are no missiles on S-400 systems. The S-400 needs a radar engagement to guide the missiles. TVM is used in the terminal phase. Previously, the missile is directed by command. Read SOC posts.

If 48N6DM has no radar then how can the system TRACK VIA MISSILE?

9M96 missiles are indeed ARH so once near the target require no more assistance in the attack... TVM guided missiles are like a combination of command guided and SARH guided missiles... in 2008 the 48N6DM was tested and had added to its system as acquisition radars, the Protivnik GE the Gamma DE, and the Nebo SVU radars... the former two in L band and the latter in VHF band. In addition to these radars it has also had the Kolchuga M, KRTP-91 Tamara / Trash Can, and 85V6 Orion / Vega emitter locating systems added to the system in case any of the acquisition radars are being jammed.

The VHF Nebo being the ideal tracking radar as the stealth inherent in the design of stealth aircraft is negated by a system that can't see shaping features...

Then i suggest you somehow arrange your sentence into something more understandable. It is hard to discern what you are trying to say.

TVM guided missiles are like a combination of command guided and SARH guided missiles... so they have a nose mounted radar antenna, but receive the signal reflected from the target aircraft directed by the engagement or the acquisition radar, or an emitting target using a jammer.

GarryB wrote:


TVM guided missiles are like a combination of command guided and SARH guided missiles... so they have a nose mounted radar antenna, but receive the signal reflected from the target aircraft directed by the engagement or the acquisition radar, or an emitting target using a jammer.

The thing is that. He was basically saying that the 48N6 can do all the job without actually having illuminator.

No, what I think he was trying to say is that the missile has the receiving radar in its nose, but the illuminating radar can be almost anything.... part of stealth design is to shape the aircraft so that radar waves directed at it are reflected in all directions other than the one direction the signal came from... which suggests that if one battery uses long wave radar to detect a stealth target and directs an illuminating beam onto that target a missile coming from pretty much any other direction should be able to see the illumination beam and home in on it...

Mindstorm wrote:India will receive 5 regiments , therefore almost surely 10 divisions of 8 launchers and 4 transloaders each (i do not believe India will receive tri-divisions regiments) ;  16 ready launchers and 8 transloaders   for each regiements and obviously all other complements of bi-divisions regiments  

China will soon start placing their S-400 in Tibet. This means India will no longer be able to operate their Su-30MKI or any other fighter aircraft from their forward bases close to the border with China

The missile system is SARH , means the missile has a small phased array antenna in the nose, with the required electronics to work as passive radar.

Due to the radar equitation it work interestingly.

Say the main phased array radar is 2x2meter, the missile has 0.2x0.2m receiver.

So, the missile hundred times less sensitive for the emission than the radar.

So, if the radar can detect an F-35 from 70 km, then the missile can detect it from 7km.


So, if the F-35 is 200km away, then the Flap Lid radar can't see it, but if it receive the coordinates from a big bird/nebo-m then it can steer command the missile toward the target.
If the radar illuminate the target ,then the missile seeker will see it in the last 2.5 km, means if the NEBO-M can pinpoint the target into a km big box then the missile can found its target with the illumination of the flap lid.

The Flap lid can receive the data from the missile, and its can lead the other missiles to the precise position.

If the missile has active seeker, then it can see the target from 20km ( if everything is equal).
Means it can feed back the data to other missiles, back to the main radar, or can illuminate the target for other missiles/radars.

Singular_Transform wrote:The missile system is SARH , means the missile has a small phased array antenna in the nose, with the required electronics to work as passive radar.

uh no. The 48N6 or 5V55 still use a slotted planar array Or parabolic.

So, if the F-35 is 200km away, then the Flap Lid radar can't see it, but if it receive the coordinates from a big bird/nebo-m then it can steer command the missile toward the target.
If the radar illuminate the target ,then the missile seeker will see it in the last 2.5 km, means if the NEBO-M can pinpoint the target into a km big box then the missile can found its target with the illumination of the flap lid.

The Flap lid can receive the data from the missile, and its can lead the other missiles to the precise position.

If the missile has active seeker, then it can see the target from 20km ( if everything is equal).
Means it can feed back the data to other missiles, back to the main radar, or can illuminate the target for other missiles/radars.

Now this make more sense than your previous statement.

jhelb wrote:
China will soon start placing their S-400 in Tibet. This means India will no longer be able to operate their Su-30MKI or any other fighter aircraft from their forward bases close to the border with China

did S-400 in Crimea stop any flights over Black Sea?

Stealthflanker wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:The missile system is SARH , means the missile has a small phased array antenna in the nose, with the required electronics to work as passive radar.

uh no. The 48N6 or 5V55 still use a slotted planar array Or parabolic.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140403191712/http://old.raspletin.ru/press-centre/news/2008/080603/

SAM 48Н6Е3 and 48Н6Е2 with a range of 250 km and 200 km have the same layout and semi-active homing, working on targets with speeds up to 4800 m/s and 2,800 m/s respectively, and upgraded adaptive combat gear, specially designed to increase the efficiency of destruction of ballistic targets.

Rocket 48Н6Е3, 48Н6Е2 (Fig.3) single-stage solid propellant engine, made by the normal aerodynamic scheme, start - vertical ejection from the transport-launch containers.

miketheterrible wrote:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140403191712/http://old.raspletin.ru/press-centre/news/2008/080603/

SAM 48Н6Е3 and 48Н6Е2 with a range of 250 km and 200 km have the same layout and semi-active homing, working on targets with speeds up to 4800 m/s and 2,800 m/s respectively, and upgraded adaptive combat gear, specially designed to increase the efficiency of destruction of ballistic targets.

Rocket 48Н6Е3, 48Н6Е2 (Fig.3) single-stage solid propellant engine, made by the normal aerodynamic scheme, start - vertical ejection from the transport-launch containers.

Your point being ?

Im talking about MISSILE SEEKER antenna here not other stuff.

and clearly this is not Phased array or sort of it.

Have there been any news on S-400 deal with Saudi Arabia recently? I remember it was first reported as a done contract, then in some media it said it was a memorandum of understanding and that talks were ongoing to define everything. To this day I haven't seen any news about timetable of deliveries, cost of contract etc. Have some news slipped past me?

eridan wrote:Have there been any news on S-400 deal with Saudi Arabia recently? I remember it was first reported as a done contract, then in some media it said it was a memorandum of understanding and that talks were ongoing to define everything. To this day I haven't seen any news about timetable of deliveries, cost of contract etc. Have some news slipped past me?

Never heard any real negotiations about this. Let alone contract. KSA unlikely buys anything from Russia. IMHO Russia's best interest is in coordination crude prices with KSA and eventually let them invest in infrastructural projects (they cannot shut or take away highways or railroads)

GunshipDemocracy wrote:did S-400 in Crimea stop any flights over Black Sea?

Obviously because the Russian AF never used it to seal the air space.

Stealthflanker wrote:
Your point being ?

Im talking about MISSILE SEEKER antenna here not other stuff.

and clearly this is not Phased array or sort of it.

1. From the distances standpoint the type of the seeker doesn't matter. But it is easier to understand the working of it by think about it like a portion of the big engagement radar.
2. I am sure up to the millennium they used mechanically steered seekers ( radar receivers) , but in the past 5-15 years they moved over to electronically steered phased array antenna design ( by 99% chance). That decrease the weight of the electronics, and they started to use them on the Soyuz capsules, so I presume they mass produce those computers / receivers for SAMs as well.


OF course the open literature doesn't show the most recent missile models.

Stealthflanker wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140403191712/http://old.raspletin.ru/press-centre/news/2008/080603/

SAM 48Н6Е3 and 48Н6Е2 with a range of 250 km and 200 km have the same layout and semi-active homing, working on targets with speeds up to 4800 m/s and 2,800 m/s respectively, and upgraded adaptive combat gear, specially designed to increase the efficiency of destruction of ballistic targets.

Rocket 48Н6Е3, 48Н6Е2 (Fig.3) single-stage solid propellant engine, made by the normal aerodynamic scheme, start - vertical ejection from the transport-launch containers.

Your point being ?

Im talking about MISSILE SEEKER antenna here not other stuff.

and clearly this is not Phased array or sort of it.

Which 48N6 model is that?

miketheterrible wrote:[

Which 48N6 model is that?

That is the early 48N6. for S-300PMU-1.

Even then the latter model won't have phased array seeker. your missile diagram should have "FAR" (Russian term for Phased Array) for you to claim it has. I don't really speak Russian but in missile diagram you provided it clearly mention "RADIOLOKATSIONNYYe GOLOVKI SAMONAVEDENIYA" or Radar Homing Heads. Nothing specifics on antenna type.

The missile system is SARH , means the missile has a small phased array antenna in the nose, with the required electronics to work as passive radar.

A phased array antenna would be pointless on what is basically a SARH antenna...

Due to the radar equitation it work interestingly.

Say the main phased array radar is 2x2meter, the missile has 0.2x0.2m receiver.

So, the missile hundred times less sensitive for the emission than the radar.

So, if the radar can detect an F-35 from 70 km, then the missile can detect it from 7km.

The reduced detection range is because the energy is redirected in all directions except the direction it came from, which means if you direct a beam of radar waves at a target and launch a missile on a high trajectory to maximise missile range, the radar antenna in the missile will be viewing the target from a different angle than the radar emitter so the fact that the radar emitter can barely see the reflections has nothing to do with what the missile sees... it should be able to see the target from much greater ranges...

So, if the F-35 is 200km away, then the Flap Lid radar can't see it, but if it receive the coordinates from a big bird/nebo-m then it can steer command the missile toward the target.
If the radar illuminate the target ,then the missile seeker will see it in the last 2.5 km, means if the NEBO-M can pinpoint the target into a km big box then the missile can found its target with the illumination of the flap lid.

The Flap lid can receive the data from the missile, and its can lead the other missiles to the precise position.

If the missile has active seeker, then it can see the target from 20km ( if everything is equal).
Means it can feed back the data to other missiles, back to the main radar, or can illuminate the target for other missiles/radars.

Your logic is flawed because you are treating the radar receiver in the missile nose and the transmitting radar on the ground as being the same as an ARH system located where the transmitting radar actually is located.

In fact the TVM creates what is called a bistatic radar where the transmitting radar and receiving radar are separate but the receiving radar is moving closer and closer to the target during the interception.

The Missile does not need to detect reflections from the target on launch... it can be command guided to the near vicinity of the target using passive radar sources as well as long wave radar sources and only guide for the last few kms using the target illuminated with a radar beam...

and clearly this is not Phased array or sort of it.

Of course it is not... a dish type assembly is all it needs to look for the emitted radar signal reflected from the target...

There is no need to scan with an active signal to find the target... just move the dish until you get a strong return and that is where the target is.

IMHO Russia's best interest is in coordination crude prices with KSA and eventually let them invest in infrastructural projects (they cannot shut or take away highways or railroads)

Totally agree there...

Obviously because the Russian AF never used it to seal the air space.

If the Chinese use S-400 to shoot down Indian aircraft, that would be an act of war...

The radar antenna in the missiles is most likely not an array... passive or active.

GarryB wrote:If the Chinese use S-400 to shoot down Indian aircraft, that would be an act of war...

My point was if a war breaks out between China & India. China can use the S-400 to seal Indian airspace in North & North East India. Consequently India will not be able to operate the Su 30MKI, Mig 29UPG or any of their front-line aircraft.

Will India deploy its S 400 to do the same to China ? That's another scenario. My point was only about China using S 400 to seal Indian airspace.

jhelb wrote:
Will India deploy its S 400 to do the same to China ? That's another scenario. My point was only about China using S 400 to seal Indian airspace.

and Indian S-400 would seal Chinese one. But there is no way any war breaks between India and China in foreseeable future. There is no business case in this.

GarryB wrote:Of course it is not... a dish type assembly is all it needs to look for the emitted radar signal reflected from the target...

There is no need to scan with an active signal to find the target... just move the dish until you get a strong return and that is where the target is.

Just one comment here, modernized R-77 will receive an AESA seeker in order to improve reliability of the lock during hard end game manoeuvres. I guess the same would eventually apply to a SAM...

Depends on the missile.

They already operate such guidance systems. 9M96 for instance has an active radar system.

Many long range missiles don't benefit that much from it because low power output that can be provided from the APU means less power to do much and possibly easier to jam anyway. Having a very powerful ground based system tracking enemy aircraft and providing the guidance for the missile, is a very good structure. Especially in heavy EW environment.

miketheterrible wrote:Depends on the missile.

They already operate such guidance systems. 9M96 for instance has an active radar system.

Many long range missiles don't benefit that much from it because low power output that can be provided from the APU means less power to do much and possibly easier to jam anyway. Having a very powerful ground based system tracking enemy aircraft and providing the guidance for the missile, is a very good structure. Especially in heavy EW environment.

Less power output is tture, but as the missile get closer the intensity of the signal growing by the fourth power.

Just one comment here, modernized R-77 will receive an AESA seeker in order to improve reliability of the lock during hard end game manoeuvres. I guess the same would eventually apply to a SAM...

That is perfectly logical as mass production of AESA elements should reduce their cost and make them much cheaper to deploy very widely, but such an antenna fitted to an old missile is more problematic.

R-77 missiles are all ARH, so an AESA seeker doesn't change anything as it is a transmitter and receiver... you are just changing from one type of ARH antenna to a newer more capable one.

If you were to attach an AESA seeker on an R-73 or R-27E then there are bigger problems because neither have ARH guidance so you would need to do rather more than just add an ARH AESA seeker array.... you would also have to replace all the guidance equipment for ARH guidance equipment for the new antenna to work.

It would also be the same for older S-300 and S-400 missiles that previously used TVM guidance to replace it with ARH guidance.

We know they can do it because the newer missiles have ARH guidance, and the R-27 has rather more internal space than the R-77 so in fact they could put the seeker and electronics of the R-77 into the R-27 and likely have room for more rocket fuel or a bigger warhead or both.

They would all become ARH missiles with an initial command guidance phase to get them close to their targets...

There is no reason why they could not be given the capability to see the illumination of a SARH radar because the Bistatic design actually works rather well... so despite being an ARH upgrade it could still operate passively in an SARH mode so the ground based radar illuminates the target while the missiles passively home in on the signal... if something goes wrong it can try to use its own ARH radar of course, but using TVM the target wont know where the incoming missile is coming from until it gets very close... it also wont know how many missiles are coming and from which direction... ground based missiles near the target could also be launched at the illuminated target... even though it is stealthy...

Will India deploy its S 400 to do the same to China ? That's another scenario. My point was only about China using S 400 to seal Indian airspace.

So India should buy a lot of S-400 batteries and lots and lots of missiles...

Less power output is tture, but as the missile get closer the intensity of the signal growing by the fourth power.

They clearly think having a range of options is best... S-400 systems are not cheap and they could have easily fitted them all with ARH if they wanted to... the ARH sensor off the R-37M would do... the 200km and 250km S-400 missiles are huge.