S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

GarryB wrote:Well if they are going to be reactivating a Soviet base there for Russia to operate from then S-400 would be part of the air defences the air base would be equipped with to protect it. That would be perfectly normal... just like Russia deployed S-400 to Syria to protect Russian forces there too.

As to how the US might react... who gives a fuck... if they want Russia to stay out of Cuba then they can get the fuck out of Europe.

Interview with Almaz chief designer P Sozinov

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=860&v=AlJHGRzxOu4&feature=emb_logo

Gas Dynamic Stirring that is being referred to is probably a tactic to defeat Hypersonic threat.

Blah blah blah... nice video of S-400 but couldn't understand a word he said...

GarryB wrote:Blah blah blah... nice video of S-400 but couldn't understand a word he said...

You can translate https://theopenmic.co/translate-youtube-videos/

Basically he was giving details about all the SAMs that are being rolled out.

What I found interesting was the topic about Gas Dynamic Stirring. Probably it's a tech to destroy hypersonic missiles.

jhelb wrote:

GarryB wrote:Blah blah blah... nice video of S-400 but couldn't understand a word he said...

You can translate https://theopenmic.co/translate-youtube-videos/

Basically he was giving details about all the SAMs that are being rolled out.

What I found interesting was the topic about Gas Dynamic Stirring. Probably it's a tech to destroy hypersonic missiles.

 Gas Dynamic Stirring is another name for thrust-vectoring, the Federation has long since mastered this technology, and Iskander-M (and now Kinzhal) has been described as having gas dynamic maneuvering rocket engines for years.

The S-500 is supposed to be able to work up to several hundred kms altitude...

https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5dabad325d636200af1101a4/ssha-i-tut-nas-obognali-sistema-pvo-kotoraia-prevoshodit-c400-i-c500-5e4c0381baec8f365f1ffc5c

How accurate is this assessment? IMO the kill ratio would be in favor of the S-400/500, as scoring a direct hit with 1 missile is a lot harder than with multiple fragments. Nukes can also be used, as with the PVO units around Moscow.

Russian Embassy in Delhi has just put out this interesting docu comparing Russian mil hardware with US- EU-Chinese competitors.

Hardware includes the #Su-57, #Okhotnik, #T-90M, #S-400, #IL-76. Ironically, many- HQ-9

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/1229350428258648071

Austin wrote:Russian Embassy in Delhi has just put out this interesting docu comparing Russian mil hardware with US- EU-Chinese competitors.

Hardware includes the #Su-57, #Okhotnik, #T-90M, #S-400, #IL-76. Ironically, many- HQ-9

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/1229350428258648071

"Not to mention air defense weapon system (S-400), which is capable of hitting high-speed targets at a range of 400km(40N6")

This officially ends the myth that 40N6 is a anti-awac, bomber,etc... Type of missile.

At 400km it will be very hard to hit an AWACS. Radar horizon is 9km altitude at 400km. Bellow that the radar won't see anything. The Awacs won't fly near an s-400 that high.

You can see in Syria how US or Israeli aircraft keep their distance of the russian S-400.

Best option against awacs is a su-57 with GCI armed with r-37 (400km) or r-77M(170-200km). Those missiles can be used at max range against such big aircraft and at those ranges the su-57 will not be detected by the awacs or detected too late to send its escort protect him. GCI means it will fly radar turned off so totally stealth.

Waiting that Awacs comes inside firing range of you air defence means you already lost the war. If the awacs can operate freely outside that then other ELINT can too and they will have good picture of your air defence position allowing them to destroy your forces.

In Russia, tests of individual elements of the S-500 air defense system are nearing completion



In Russia, tests of individual elements of the new generation S-500 anti-aircraft missile system are nearing completion. This was announced by the Director General of the Design Bureau of Special Engineering (part of the Almaz-Antey East-Kazakhstan Concern) Vladimir Dolbenkov in an interview with the Russian Defense magazine.

According to Dolbenkov, in the framework of the Triumfator-M development and testing department, individual elements of the latest S-500 Prometheus air defense system are being tested. The next step is to test the whole system.

(...) the company's specialists created the units of the latest generation of Triumfator-M mobile anti-aircraft missile system. (...) tests of the units of the anti-aircraft missile system are being completed: launcher, components of the multifunctional radar and missile defense system, equipped chassis for the combat control point, transport units for the early warning radar system

he declared.

The preliminary tests of the most important elements of the S-500 - the radar system (RLC) and the multifunctional radar station (radar) - were reported in April last year. The final stage of radar testing took place on the basis of the 185th Center for combat training and combat use of the airborne forces, located in the Astrakhan region.

As Russian Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko said earlier, according to the plans of the Ministry of Defense, preliminary tests of the system will begin in 2020. The state armament program provides for the S-500 air defense system to be put on combat duty since 2025, however, the pace of testing can confidently say that the system will enter service sooner.

S-500 - a new generation of air-to-ground air-defense systems - a universal complex of long-range and high-altitude interception with increased missile defense potential. The system being developed by JSC "Concern EKR" Almaz-Antey ", will be the basis of a unified national system of air and missile defense (AD-PRO), produced in Russia. The complex can be easily integrated into a single system with SAM previous generations and other models produced in Russia.

According to the available information, the minimum set of equipment for the S-500 Prometheus will consist of a combat control station with an automatic control system (ACS), a radar complex, a multifunctional “backlight” radar and up to 12 launchers Nowok anti-aircraft missiles on the basis of tractors BAZ or MZKT.

https://topwar.ru/169454-v-rossii-zavershajutsja-ispytanija-otdelnyh-jelementov-zrs-s-500.html

JohninMK wrote:

dino00 wrote:

"Not to mention air defense weapon system (S-400), which is capable of hitting high-speed targets at a range of 400km(40N6")

This officially ends the myth that 40N6 is a anti-awac, bomber,etc... Type of missile.

Why? Its not a myth, it is still one of its functions and a pretty important one at that.

OK trying to hit fast aircraft at that distance is a good objective but the ability to generate enough fear to keep the enemy force multiplier assets that you mention at least 400km away is a very vital and probably more valuable task.

The myth was that the 40N6 was only useful against awacs, etc...type of targets.

Isos wrote:At 400km it will be very hard to hit an AWACS. Radar horizon is 9km altitude at 400km. Bellow that the radar won't see anything. The Awacs won't fly near an s-400 that high.

You can see in Syria how US or Israeli aircraft keep their distance of the russian S-400.

Best option against awacs is a su-57 with GCI armed with r-37 (400km) or r-77M(170-200km). Those missiles can be used at max range against such big aircraft and at those ranges the su-57 will not be detected by the awacs or detected too late to send its escort protect him. GCI means it will fly radar turned off so totally stealth.

Waiting that Awacs comes inside firing range of you air defence means you already lost the war. If the awacs can operate freely outside that then other ELINT can too and they will have good picture of your air defence position allowing them to destroy your forces.

If an AWACS is flying below that height it is nearly useless = mission achieved (for the S-400).

If an AWACS is flying below that height it is nearly useless = mission achieved (for the S-400).

Why ? At 7 or 8km it can still see far away. Only things flying very low further away than 400km won't be seen.

Anyway, AWACS are overrated. Their detection range is not enough anymore even against su-30 armed with r-77-1 there is little they can do. A su-35 with r-37 is impossible to intercept for its escort.

Doesn't the S-400 battery get fed data from other longer range ground radars or even A-50 or fighter radars, so forcing AWACS and tankers back further than 400km? Thus making them even more useless, as you say.

The AWACS will never go above enemy territory if the friendly forces have achieved total air supremacy or at least destroyed all the top fighters. It will stay at 100-150km from the front coordinating the interception of enemy fighters.

Do you really think a boeing or a A-50 emmitting shit tons of radar signals could survive more than 2 minutes obove a land full of anti air ? Certainly not.

Apart from AWACS, air tankers have been a brilliant, if expensive, way of keeping the West's short range aircraft in combat against their foes of the last decades. But when facing an enemy with S-300/400 and long range AAM having predominantly short range aircraft that will have to go a long way to refuel becomes a serious issue. That factor is of course on top of the risk created by the enemy having good performance SAMs deployed all over the place.

Same for the tanker. They will refuel above friendly territory. The best thing russia could do is use more r-37 and shot at any big target 300km it sees near the front line. That would destroy f16 or f35 hopes of reaching their targets.

But IMO, looking at how russian army are turning their eyes to small drones, they will use suicide drones against awacs and tankers when they are parked in the airport. Or kalibr.

You contradicting yourself. An AWACS has to stay away from enemy territory but still can see wide enough even if flying low? No. If it has to fly low enough to avoid being detected by the S-400 radars and have to keep a wide distance to the frontline then it is totaly useless to guide own fighter jets flying over enemy territory which is the main purpose of an AWACS.

By the way the 40N6 missile has it´s own active radar head so it just needs some data of the whereabout of an AWACS, which can be achieved by passive ELINT systems, to find and hit it.

I never say low but under radar hirzon of the enemy radar. At 400km from the s-400 it need to be only bellow 9km in alritude. Above 4-5km it will still see far away, at least 4th generation fighters without jamming.

You need to understand that the s-400 and other radars can't be deployed in enemy territory so they will always be behind the front line and safe from potential artillery. That's the weak spot of an IADS, the geographical limits of deploying radars where enemy can play with altitude to surprise you and destroy slowly your IADS.

US never planed to send an awacs and fighters deep inside enemy territory where sukhois and migs operate in huge numbers. That's true for 3rd world countries with 5 or 6 mig but not against China or Russia. The Awacs will operate at same distance from the front as the S-400. They are not hardwares you can hide. The same way you propose to find awacs with ELINT you can find the s-400 and pass data to awacs to stay in safe zone.

Some s-400 can wait in ambushes but the front will be scanned by optics, stalites and drones putting them in danger.



Maybe A-50U can guide active radar missiles but I doubt normal a-50 or fighters could guide them. Never heard of. I heard french frigates can control weapons of rafales to use it against targets designated by the frigate and about e-2 guided some SM missiles but in the very last variant.

At 400km it will be very hard to hit an AWACS. Radar horizon is 9km altitude at 400km. Bellow that the radar won't see anything. The Awacs won't fly near an s-400 that high.

The radar from an AWACS aircraft travels enormous distances... generally as a rule of thumb more than three times the detection range of the system it is easy to detect because the radar itself detects targets at the detection range which is doubled because the radar waves travel out to the target and have to travel back to the antenna for a detection to be made.

An AWACS plane could be sitting on a runway... if its radar is operating and it is doing its job of AWACSing then the S-400 will detect the emission and be able to triangulate its location accurately enough to determine range and launch a missile. Being ARH missiles they don't need line of sight... they just need to know where to look... and a 400km range ballistic missile moves at over mach 7... proven in Desert Storm with modified Scud missiles... so a steeply diving missile moving at more than 1km/s which may or may not be using its own radar from directly above to detect targets... one second before impact it will be a spot above you... one second later impact... even if you saw it two seconds before impact... which would be damn impressive because nose on it will be smaller than a basket ball at more than 2km range... what sort of evasive action could you perform in a 747?  None. You can't dodge it... even in a fighter plane if you immediately pulled hard on the flight stick and pulled a 12 g turn the missile would still be close enough for its 150kg warhead of HE and metal fragments would shower your aircraft and turn it into a burning sieve...

Best option against awacs is a su-57 with GCI armed with r-37 (400km) or r-77M(170-200km). Those missiles can be used at max range against such big aircraft and at those ranges the su-57 will not be detected by the awacs or detected too late to send its escort protect him. GCI means it will fly radar turned off so totally stealth.

AWACS planes emit radar waves and are easy to detect.... just like HQs and Comms centres on a battlefield... just monitor the cellphone network traffic and you will work out the area the bad guys are and then monitor foot traffic and individual cell transmissions and you will quickly work out which building to hit... AWACS... airborne warning (radar) and control (command and communications)...

Waiting that Awacs comes inside firing range of you air defence means you already lost the war. If the awacs can operate freely outside that then other ELINT can too and they will have good picture of your air defence position allowing them to destroy your forces.

Tracking down AWACS can be done with no emissions by an S-400 system in stealth mode.... they wont know it is there unless they see the single missile launch... and then it will move away... back into the IADS it is a part of...

S-400s and soon S-500s will also soon roam around the worlds oceans too... S-500s will not be cheap but a 600km range shot at an AWACS would be worth a missile...

HATO uses AWACS aircraft to coordinate attacks and operations so it wont be held back deep in friendly territory... it needs to be up in enemy territory looking for enemy aircraft and ground forces to coordinate attacks and resources... imagine an anti radiation version of Kinzhal hanging under a MiG-31... a Mach 9 2,000 km range anti AWACS weapon....      

JSTARS and AWACS are integral parts of HATO.... they feed targets and commands into the western war machine to direct it where to go and where not to go... take away such force multipliers and countries like Malaysia and India can easily beat US pilots when it is one on one... because although well trained US pilots are nothing special... they have excellent support from assets like JSTARS and satellites and AWACS platforms to direct and coordinate their moves to make them look good.

The myth was that the 40N6 was only useful against awacs, etc...type of targets.

Because of the range involved most targets will be big.... B-52s, AWACS, JSTARS, and of course inflight refuelling aircraft and transport types will be most vulnerable... but coming down at mach 7 there wont be any chance of dodging such a weapon without jammers and decoys and a seriously good ESM suite...

Interestingly from above even a B-2 probably wont be stealthy...

Why ? At 7 or 8km it can still see far away. Only things flying very low further away than 400km won't be seen.

At 2km altitude it wont see 400km as you point out due to the radar horizon, but the radar signals it is emitting will continue travelling thousands of kms... making locating the AWACS pretty straight forward for ELINT and SAMs and other assets...

Anyway, AWACS are overrated. Their detection range is not enough anymore even against su-30 armed with r-77-1 there is little they can do. A su-35 with r-37 is impossible to intercept for its escort.

They are going to be in trouble, but new technology might change things with newer radar designs like photonic radars etc...

The AWACS will never go above enemy territory if the friendly forces have achieved total air supremacy or at least destroyed all the top fighters. It will stay at 100-150km from the front coordinating the interception of enemy fighters.

That is close enough for the 250km range S-400 missiles to hit them... and the 140km range S-350s could have a go as well...

Do you really think a boeing or a A-50 emmitting shit tons of radar signals could survive more than 2 minutes obove a land full of anti air ? Certainly not.

That is what we are saying... but HATO relies on their AWACS platforms for command control and coordination... it is their C4IR mobile base of imperialism...

But IMO, looking at how russian army are turning their eyes to small drones, they will use suicide drones against awacs and tankers when they are parked in the airport. Or kalibr.

Maybe a bundle of Kalibr or Iskander delivered suicide drones for those targets on the ground... and cratering munitions so any that survive can't get airborne...

You need to understand that the s-400 and other radars can't be deployed in enemy territory so they will always be behind the front line and safe from potential artillery. That's the weak spot of an IADS, the geographical limits of deploying radars where enemy can play with altitude to surprise you and destroy slowly your IADS.

Not true... Russia can deploy a wide range of high flying aircraft that can collect target data on low flying threats deep in enemy territory and emitting platforms like AWACS wont even need that... they give their own positions away through normal use.

Some s-400 can wait in ambushes but the front will be scanned by optics, stalites and drones putting them in danger.

Radar and radio silent S-400 batteries operating near borders can be covered by multiple overlapping systems from S-350 and BUK-M3 through Pantsir-SM and TOR-M3... when a HATO AWACS scans for targets 200km behind the front line the S-400 truck can launch a missile or two and then withdraw... HATO does not have an unlimited number of AWACS aircraft and when they start bursting into flames they will disappear from the battlefield pretty quick... either like a face mask delivery during a pandemic or in flames...

Maybe A-50U can guide active radar missiles but I doubt normal a-50 or fighters could guide them. Never heard of. I heard french frigates can control weapons of rafales to use it against targets designated by the frigate and about e-2 guided some SM missiles but in the very last variant.

The new model fighters are part of the network... the Su-30 was used to provide target data for a MiG-31 with the old short range radar for an R-37M launch of 300km. The S-400 400km range missile uses ARH like the R-37M and does not need and could not get a lock on target before launch anyway... all they need is information about where the target is and they look for them themselves as they approach the target area provided by another platform... or in the case of an AWACS target... its own emissions.

The Su-57 could probably use Link 12 L band emissions from the AWACS to locate it and launch an attack totally passively...

That is the primary problem of HATO... it is geared towards being the Imperial shock troops of the US 1% oligarchs... smashing small countries to make very rich people richer...

If they honestly believed China and Russia were the threat they would be spending their money totally differently...

New Tiksi anti-aircraft missile regiment using S-300PS anti-aircraft missile systems

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3978462.html