Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #3

Khepesh wrote:

BKP wrote:^Agree 100%. I'm over Ukraine. Novos deserve rrspect and support, but the rest aren't worth pissing on if they were on fire.

Forgotten so soon....

Point taken. Still, on the whole, I was extraordinarily underwhelmed by the level of resistance. Don't want to rehash or digress though, respectfully.

20 Euros a pop? Now that is how you boost a military budget...  

Monarchist wrote:

Желать поражения никто не станет. Но если оно ожидается по вполне объективным причинам, то почему бы не сказать это до того, как в заранее проигранную войну втянется максимальное количество сил и средств?
Для меня неприятие сирийской войны имеет совершенно практическое значение - много моих знакомых (и знакомых знакомых) уже уехали туда "добровольцами" (т.е. наемниками) и теперь работают в составе ЧВК в качестве пехотного "пушечного мяса". С соответствующими потерями. И мне искренне жаль, что лучшие и активнейшие русские люди погибнут, будут искалечены или просто прольют свою кровь без пользы для своего Отечества - лишь в угоду "пиар-задачам" по прикрытию ползучей капитуляции на Украине.


"Wanting defeat no one wants. But if it is expected for good reasons, why not say it before in advance that a lost war lured maximum amount of manpower and resources?
For me, the rejection of the Syrian war is quite practical value - a lot of my friends (and friends of friends) had already left to "volunteers" (ie mercenaries) and is now serving on the PMC as infantry "cannon fodder." With corresponding losses. And I'm really sorry that the best and most active Russian people will die, be maimed or simply shed their blood in vain for the Fatherland - just for the sake of "public relations tasks" to provide cover for a creeping surrender of the Ukraine." - Igor Strelkov

"Ага. "По-нашему" - это 4 года дожидаться, пока Асад потеряет 3/4 территории и половину населения, экономика будет разрушена "в хлам", а армия окажется не способна даже эффективно оборонять то, что еще осталось - т.е. когда Асад окажется на самом пороге катастрофы и без всяких надежд на конечную победу. И тут мы влезаем 50 самолетами, 26 ракетами и 2 тысячами людей (данные не мои - об этом пиндосы пишут) и заявляем, что сейчас "всех победю!" Т.е. силами, недостаточными даже для того, чтобы нормально поддержать статус-кво, не говоря уже о "военной победе".
Сейчас США и Саудиты подкинут боевикам побольше ПЗРК и ПТРК, боевики приспособятся к фактору постоянного присутствия в воздухе немногочисленной российской авиации и всё снова пойдет по накатанной... т.е. армия Асада снова уйдет в глухую оборону, периодически сдавая один важный стратегический пункт за другим - как все последние 2 года. "

"Yeah. "In our opinion" - a 4 year wait for Assad to loose 3/4 of the territory and half of the population, the economy will be destroyed "in the trash," and the army will not even able to effectively defend what is left - that is, when Assad is on the verge of disaster, and without any hope of ultimate victory. And then we get involved 50 aircraft, 26 missiles and 2 thousand people (data not mine - it Pindos write) and declare that now "all to win!" Ie forces, not even enough to properly maintain the status quo, not to mention the "military victory".
Now the US and the Saudis militants just settle more MANPADS and anti-tank systems, the militants adapt to factor constant presence in the air of a small Russian aviation again and everything goes according to that thumb ... Assad's army again goes on the defensive, occasionally renting an important strategic point after another - all of the past 2 years."

New comments from Igor Strelkov. Harsh, but very close to the truth.

Until you show me a live video of the good Tovarich Polkovnik stating these pontifications in public this post falls in with the rest of your posts which rank marginally below a steaming heap of bovine scatology.

auslander wrote:

Monarchist wrote:

Желать поражения никто не станет. Но если оно ожидается по вполне объективным причинам, то почему бы не сказать это до того, как в заранее проигранную войну втянется максимальное количество сил и средств?
Для меня неприятие сирийской войны имеет совершенно практическое значение - много моих знакомых (и знакомых знакомых) уже уехали туда "добровольцами" (т.е. наемниками) и теперь работают в составе ЧВК в качестве пехотного "пушечного мяса". С соответствующими потерями. И мне искренне жаль, что лучшие и активнейшие русские люди погибнут, будут искалечены или просто прольют свою кровь без пользы для своего Отечества - лишь в угоду "пиар-задачам" по прикрытию ползучей капитуляции на Украине.


"Wanting defeat no one wants. But if it is expected for good reasons, why not say it before in advance that a lost war lured maximum amount of manpower and resources?
For me, the rejection of the Syrian war is quite practical value - a lot of my friends (and friends of friends) had already left to "volunteers" (ie mercenaries) and is now serving on the PMC as infantry "cannon fodder." With corresponding losses. And I'm really sorry that the best and most active Russian people will die, be maimed or simply shed their blood in vain for the Fatherland - just for the sake of "public relations tasks" to provide cover for a creeping surrender of the Ukraine." - Igor Strelkov

"Ага. "По-нашему" - это 4 года дожидаться, пока Асад потеряет 3/4 территории и половину населения, экономика будет разрушена "в хлам", а армия окажется не способна даже эффективно оборонять то, что еще осталось - т.е. когда Асад окажется на самом пороге катастрофы и без всяких надежд на конечную победу. И тут мы влезаем 50 самолетами, 26 ракетами и 2 тысячами людей (данные не мои - об этом пиндосы пишут) и заявляем, что сейчас "всех победю!" Т.е. силами, недостаточными даже для того, чтобы нормально поддержать статус-кво, не говоря уже о "военной победе".
Сейчас США и Саудиты подкинут боевикам побольше ПЗРК и ПТРК, боевики приспособятся к фактору постоянного присутствия в воздухе немногочисленной российской авиации и всё снова пойдет по накатанной... т.е. армия Асада снова уйдет в глухую оборону, периодически сдавая один важный стратегический пункт за другим - как все последние 2 года. "

"Yeah. "In our opinion" - a 4 year wait for Assad to loose 3/4 of the territory and half of the population, the economy will be destroyed "in the trash," and the army will not even able to effectively defend what is left - that is, when Assad is on the verge of disaster, and without any hope of ultimate victory. And then we get involved 50 aircraft, 26 missiles and 2 thousand people (data not mine - it Pindos write) and declare that now "all to win!" Ie forces, not even enough to properly maintain the status quo, not to mention the "military victory".
Now the US and the Saudis militants just settle more MANPADS and anti-tank systems, the militants adapt to factor constant presence in the air of a small Russian aviation again and everything goes according to that thumb ... Assad's army again goes on the defensive, occasionally renting an important strategic point after another - all of the past 2 years."

New comments from Igor Strelkov. Harsh, but very close to the truth.

Until you show me a live video of the good Tovarich Polkovnik stating these pontifications in public this post falls in with the rest of your posts which rank marginally below a steaming heap of bovine scatology.  

I don't know what your problem is with me but I'm not making up these quotes.
He is posting on this forum and these topic regularly https://forum-antikvariat.ru/index.php/topic/219507-zapad-vs-vostok-ukrainy-8/page-354
https://forum-antikvariat.ru/index.php/topic/219606-blizhnij-vostok-siriyajemensaudovskaya-araviya-t/page-126
Strelkov posts under the nick Котыч.

I stand by what I wrote, show me a live video of the good Polkovnik speaking thusly.

Nice! SAA using Tochka's, Frog-7's, and Scuds against IS-SHAM:

Syrian missiles "Point" continues mercilessly destroy the terrorists

auslander wrote:I stand by what I wrote, show me a live video of the good Polkovnik speaking thusly.

https://forum-antikvariat.ru/index.php/topic/219606-blizhnij-vostok-siriyajemensaudovskaya-araviya-t/page-121

If you scroll down you can read it by yourself. It's up to you if you want to believe it or not.

Looks like the Northern Fleet's Yauza has been loaded with 'stuff', has joined the 'Syria Express' and is now southbound on the Med side of the Bosphorus.

Pretty hard hitting comment from Moscow in the last para

Airstrikes of US-led coalition on civilian facilities o the Syrian territory lead to increasing refugee flows to the European Union, Kartapolov went on to say.

"Over the last two weeks, we have provided enough video materials confirming the precision of [Russian] airstrikes. Our jets deliver airstrikes at facilities located outside of settlements," Kartapolov said.

"It is not in our rules to advise colleagues on where to deliver their airstrikes. However, on October 11, near the settlement of Tel-Alam, the coalition’s jets destroyed by airstrikes a thermal power plant and transformer substation," he added. As a result, hospitals and schools in Aleppo were left without electricity. Water pumping stations and sewage also stopped working which can be very harmful in the conditions of high temperatures.

"I think that it is unlikely that our partners did not know that the thermal power plant worked only eight hours per day. Airstrikes were delivered for several days, and on October 11, the power station was completely destroyed. One might het an impression that someone is deliberately destroying infrastructure in settlements, thus making the life of local population impossible. Because of that, civilians leave these settlements after losing living conditions and increase the refugee flow to Europe," Kartapolov noted.

http://tass.ru/en/world/829582

magnumcromagnon wrote:Nice! SAA using Tochka's, Frog-7's, and Scuds against IS-SHAM:

Syrian missiles "Point" continues mercilessly destroy the terrorists

good to seen them being used for a while i thought they had run out of ammo for them, Tochka's are decent enough not the most accurate, FROG-7 aren't that useful due to high inaccuracies and they risk killing civilians with FROG-7, its a real shame nobody has ever offered upgrades to FROG-7, extending the range to at least 120km, and improving accuracy to down to 50m CEP and i am sure anyone who has then would be up for upgrading them.

The R-17 Elbrus kinda grind my heart.. well because it can't really handle point target, it need VTO upgrade with Aerofon warhead.

The Tochka however is very decent.

Stealthflanker wrote:The R-17 Elbrus kinda grind my heart.. well because it can't really handle point target, it need VTO upgrade with Aerofon warhead.

The Tochka however is very decent.

I suspect they would use BM's on rather extensive sized IS-SHAM compounds, and for point targets they would take aerial bombardments from CAS aircraft.

Someone with clout is calling BS on the downed drone story:

The producer of Orlan drones, St. Petersburg Technological Center, issued a statement of their own, which said that “the photos of the allegedly downed drone published on social media with reference to the Turkish General Staff look more like a poorly-staged informational provocation.”

The company stressed that “it’s definitely not an Orlan” present in the pictures being published on social media. It qualified this, saying that “Russia doesn’t make UAVs with such gliders.”

‘Provocation’: Russian drone maker refutes claims Turkey downed its UAV

PapaDragon wrote:


New comments from Igor Strelkov. Harsh, but very close to the truth........

So according to him Russia should keep wasting money on ungrateful genocidal Ukrainian Nazis?

I beg to differ. F*ck Ukraine and f*ck this loudmouth. He's done his job and now is the time for him to STFU and park his ass on the bench until further notice.

Ukraine is a corpse, no point wasting money on corpses, just wait until it decomposes and then you start fresh.

Igor strelkov is a patriotic Russia make no mistake..
and he is good military too..

His problem however is the lack of vision about what Russian enemies are trying to do..
The problem with Ukraine is that a war they cannot win... in an acceptable form.. It Russia
goes invade Ukraine.. you know what the Americans will do? start sending European mercenaries but also ISIS through POland-Ukraine borders.  Russia will be in a very difficult
position that half the population will be hostile or potentially hostile to Russia. and the last
thing Russia wants is to have to deal with Euromaidans 3.0 in Ukraine and have to deal with that.. No way..  Strelkov only think in military terms.. but completely discard the Political and Economical impact of any operation.

Russia will NEVER invade Ukraine..is a no  no.. the only way such invasion could happen will be
if Russia was 100% sure ,that 90% of its population at least welcomes it..(or even an 80% will be ok) as was Crimea.. Invading a country where half the population will be bitching about Russia being there.. blaming Russia for their economic problems and later Russia not only be isolated from Europe business (what US wants) but also have to pay the pensions of millions in Ukraine too? US gets the young people , university students and Russia get the sick and old people? no thanks..and so and so. and this is not mentioning the samsom option.. that whenever Americans feels they will lose control of Ukraine ,to Russia they will destroy it... Ukraine have many nuclear reactors thy have to had already plans to destroy Ukraine nuclear reactors in a way that Russia invasion is blamed for it...So later Russia will have to spend a fortune as they had to do in chernobile cleaning the radiation..  No thanks.. . Better for Russia to avoid being pulled inside Ukraine at any cost.. and only keep a minimal proxy force standing as they do with Donbass to force kiev negotiate and listen the right of minorities and return Ukraine to a democracy.

IF ukraine disband it have to be under american control.. so later Ukrainians realize it was a
terrible mistake to ever wanting to join the EU..that they were ALL cheated, fooled and used by Americans and the EU only to create problems and weaken Russia.. and not because the EU or US was really interested in them.

The case of syria is even more complex.. you have there an externally instigated huge sectarian war ,fueled by US and its allies.. So Russian army will be in huge risk of being shot from behind by the same Syrian army ,that is some traitors infiltrated in the Syrian command and the government.. Why Russia cannot have a ground invasion.. aside that the War in Syria is far from Russia ,so not easy to defend and could cause Russia into a war with Turkey but also Israel at very least.

magnumcromagnon wrote:Someone with clout is calling BS on the downed drone story:

The producer of Orlan drones, St. Petersburg Technological Center, issued a statement of their own, which said that “the photos of the allegedly downed drone published on social media with reference to the Turkish General Staff look more like a poorly-staged informational provocation.”

The company stressed that “it’s definitely not an Orlan” present in the pictures being published on social media. It qualified this, saying that “Russia doesn’t make UAVs with such gliders.”

‘Provocation’: Russian drone maker refutes claims Turkey downed its UAV

WHO CARES! Not at you magnumcromagnon or anyone on the thread. But seriously, whatever it was, it was a small reconnaissance drone that looks to be completely expendable. Be it Russian, Syrian, Iranian, or Turkish-bought-from-404. Why the obsession in the media...

OminousSpudd wrote:
WHO CARES! Not at you magnumcromagnon or anyone on the thread. But seriously, whatever it was, it was a small reconnaissance drone that looks to be completely expendable. Be it Russian, Syrian, Iranian, or Turkish-bought-from-404. Why the obsession in the media...

Because there is a Full scale war in the west for winning public opinion to their side in progress..

So their anti Russian propaganda is very important... if they want to kick Russia
from the middle east. And showing any news that could be used as Russia illegally doing something could help justify any future aggression of Turkey on Russia ,like shoiting down one of their planes..

Said in another words.. Americans are planning ,seeking to shot down of Russian planes..
they are trying to do it in a way that could be justified that the public opinion will be on
their side.  All this hostilities are aimed at Russian citizens opinions about their nation help to Syria..and it aims to create unrest in Russia and weaken the support for Putin.
if for example a Russian pilot killed by Turkey.. you will have one part of the society demanding revenge.. and another demanding Russia to leave Syria.. and another part demanding for war against Turkey.. ie.. a divided society..

Without public support you cannot start a war and be immune to mistakes or any single failure. With public support people will fight to the last man in the country even if that means millions. without public support a president will be kicked from power at the first warship or combat plane destroyed. US and its coalition wants to use Turkey as a spear against Russia..but for that to happen public support is need first.

So all Americans /and coalition needs to do is start producing drones that looks like Russian
and shut it down themselves inside Turkey and later say Russia invaded their airspace.. to continue creating Public Support for a very limited confrontation with Russia.. ie.. Shut down any plane who is flying inside Syria near their borders under the pretext that invaded their airspace.

All US and NATO hostile actions in Syria against Russia..all of them are aimed at Putin and Russian citizens. They are not seeking to start world war 3 with nuclear weapons.. but instead
to kick Putin from power and create unrest in Russia. and the best way to do that is to get
many Russians killed in Syria.. several combat planes shutdown.. Is political warfare ,and not really military tactics what they doing. Because Shooting down one Russian plane will not
defeat Russia military..but it will seriously damage Putin image depending on what he do next.
if he counter attack and shut down a turkey plane or if he just leave without defending Russia .

People will be surprised how important is public opinion in wars.. and conflict.. Is everything..
even for dictators or fascist regimes like Turkey or Israel is important. Because their armed
forces will not show the same support if they feel what they doing is really wrong. In short the drones incident is nothing more than NATO provocations to artificially win public support against Russia. and to help Erdogan public support in Turkey.

So all the borders conflicts between Turkey against Russia.. all the show for 3 seconds of invading their airspace.. is all a provocation.. is dirty politics.. that have no other goal
than to gain public support world wide against Russia.. People might not like Turkey but all will agree that they have the right to defend their airspace. All this border conflicts are nothing more
than manipulation games of public opinion.. like the Orlan producer told.. is a provocation.

And Russia better be prepared to be attacked by Turkey Airforce or by their air defenses..even if they dont enter Turkey airspace.  NATO need to create a buffer zone inside Syria where the terrorist not bombed.. World wars do not happen with just one plane  shut down.. is all this provocations that we will continue to see from US-Turkey .. of  air space "violations" are provocations carefully calculated and planned to cause maximum damage to the enemy leaders without engaging into a war. So Turkey will never bomb the Russian port of tartus or Russian base in latakia .that will be real war.. and with the world public opinion against them..but to shot down a combat jet that they could claim was "invading" their airspace is a different story .

This is why US political elite.. Pentagon generals and NATO leaders..and its allies
whenever they talk about Russia..they always use the words.. "Russian Aggression" "Russian Invasion" , they are manipulators charlatans..trying to get world public opinion against Russia
using disinformation tactics.. All this NATO language and provocations are Psychology warfare
that aims exclusively at manipulating international public opinion..to their favor..by demonizing and isolating Russia.   Is not world war 3 what they want.. IF they wanted that..they will simply start attacking Russia warships without any reason. Their provocations is purely aimed
at Russian leadership and Russian society , is to damage Putin image and create Russian society unrest the ultimate goal. So Russia is forced to leave middle east and no longer resist the US empire.

Oh no, moderate rebels are in trouble...

Western alarm grows over future of Aleppo

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/8f81a0a8-7288-11e5-bdb1-e6e4767162cc.html#axzz3om78EiOW

All air strikes should concentrate on Kafr Nabodah and take that town. It would be a big morale hit to insurgents.

ultron wrote:All air strikes should concentrate on Kafr Nabodah and take that town. It would be a big morale hit to insurgents.

Looking at those maps with lot of space inhabitated and lot of ISIS controlled territory, the best way to demoralize not just ISIS but US and Israel funders aswell is by just going full in and use two FOAB's at the same time at two locations. The entire ME terrorists and the West will remember that day, when russia rung the bells to heaven and blew them sky high.

magnumcromagnon wrote:Someone with clout is calling BS on the downed drone story:

The producer of Orlan drones, St. Petersburg Technological Center, issued a statement of their own, which said that “the photos of the allegedly downed drone published on social media with reference to the Turkish General Staff look more like a poorly-staged informational provocation.”

The company stressed that “it’s definitely not an Orlan” present in the pictures being published on social media. It qualified this, saying that “Russia doesn’t make UAVs with such gliders.”

‘Provocation’: Russian drone maker refutes claims Turkey downed its UAV

As the Brazilian saying goes, Turkey is poking the bear with a short stick.

Vann7 wrote:

OminousSpudd wrote:
WHO CARES! Not at you magnumcromagnon or anyone on the thread. But seriously, whatever it was, it was a small reconnaissance drone that looks to be completely expendable. Be it Russian, Syrian, Iranian, or Turkish-bought-from-404. Why the obsession in the media...

Because there is a Full scale war in the west for winning public opinion to their side in progress..

So their anti Russian propaganda is very important... if they want to kick Russia
from the middle east. And showing any news that could be used as Russia illegally doing something could help justify any future aggression of Turkey on Russia ,like shoiting down one of their planes..

Said in another words.. Americans are planning ,seeking to shot down of Russian planes..
they are trying to do it in a way that could be justified that the public opinion will be on
their side.  All this hostilities are aimed at Russian citizens opinions about their nation help to Syria..and it aims to create unrest in Russia and weaken the support for Putin.
if for example a Russian pilot killed by Turkey.. you will have one part of the society demanding revenge.. and another demanding Russia to leave Syria.. and another part demanding for war against Turkey.. ie.. a divided society..

All US and NATO hostile actions in Syria against Russia..all of them are aimed at Putin and Russian citizens. They are not seeking to start world war 3 with nuclear weapons.. but instead
to kick Putin from power and create unrest in Russia...

Maybe I'm a dope, but this seems... possible. The logic seems sound, like the kind of ruthless, out-of-the-box head f*ckery the West excels at. But, there is still the thorny problem of actually shooting down an SU-30. They keep saying things like "we can shoot down your planes for these airspace violations," but can they really? Saying is one thing, doing is another.

But, what about the money angle as it pertains to the arms trade? If they did manage to shoot down an SU, how would that effect Sukhoi's rep with potential buyers? As a side-note,  can you image the boards ("brah, I told you those fancy airshow moves didn't count for sh*t")?

Running wild with that idea, is it possible they could use an F-22 for the shoot-down, then claim it was accomplished by a mere Turkish F-16? I don't know, maybe that's too far fetched. Also, it's a double-edged sword. Any such plot would be extraordinarily high-risk for the plotters, and it could completely backfire. But, then again, there's a lot a stake in all of this, and the West is already highly committed in both money and reputation. And, it feels its preeminent geopolitical position in the ME is at risk. Factor all of that in, and who can say for sure what they might be desperate enough to try?

But, maybe it doesn't have to be quite as drastic as bringing down an SU-30. If they brought down 24s for 25s, that could be enough to start more substantial contention about this support effort within Russian society itself. Of course, the 30s guard those other planes, so you're forced to figure that dealing with them would be very hard to avoid.

Sure they can shoot down a Su-30SM....problem (for them) is what happens after.

A lot of this is politics, PR and posturing

Hmmm    Pretty sure this unit exists, but unclear how much info in the link is true and how much speculation and rumours

"Slavic Corps" returns to Syria

The private military company does not advertise publicly. She's not in reference books and registers. Among the devoted she is known as "PMC Wagner." Until recently, the main force of this formation took part in the armed conflict in the breakaway Luhansk People's Republic, now there is a relocation to Syria.




PMC Wagner - one of the most secret units fighting in NovoRosija. Commanders and fighters never give interviews, photograph with Ukrainian trophies do not appear in social networks, they are not mentioned in the official release of LPR and DPR. Informally referred to as "cleaners".

Wagner and his team are credited with shooting of chief of staff of the 4th Brigade DPR Alexander Bednov (Batman), undermining the brigade commander "Ghost" Alexei Brain, disarmament brigade of special purpose "Odessa", the repression among the "Cossacks", and are known to operate in the eastern Luhansk region.

The commander of the formation according to the Ukrainian media is said to be a Russian officer. Deputy commander of the Interior Ministry of the Russian group of forces in the North Caucasus, the former commander of the special forces unit "Vityaz" (Interior Forces) - Colonel Eugene Wagner.

However...

Colonel Eugene Wagner of internal troops has nothing to do with the same name PMCs. The man with the call sign "Wagner" did not serve in the Ministry of Interior, but in the Spetznas GRU of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia.

Last place of service - the commander of one of the individual sections of the second separate brigade of Spetsnaz GRU, which is stationed at Pskov. He was discharged as a lieutenant colonel. He worked under contract with the Moran Security Group, guarded court in hazardous areas from pirate attacks. In September 2013, together with the "Slavonic corps' first visited Syria.

More here (some of it confusing)

http://www.fontanka.ru/2015/10/16/118/

I wonder if these guys had something to do with this

Ahrar a-Sham commanders assassinated at ‘fake’ Homs checkpoint
http://syriadirect.org/news/ahrar-a-sham-commanders-assassinated-at-%E2%80%98fake%E2%80%99-homs-checkpoint/

Turkey can attempt to attack a Russian plane.. using American help ,for example rail gun from Turkey could do that.. or lazer weapons.. such things cannot be jammed.. or maybe with a missile that is highly resistant to jamming.. if they had one.. nobody knows.. what is clear however is that US and its allies will use their best technology (if that is what is required) , to try to shot down a Russian plane..and later claim "it was violating their airspace".  

And Russia will have the option of following a diplomatic pattern and face NATO humilliation..
Or engage in a retaliation ,and shot down a turkey plane.. in the process.  Something as simple
as a drone fill with tnt.. could be detonated close to a Russian plane ...the west does not have any ethics or rules..  or an Alqaeda pilot detonate his plane with 1 ton of tnt.. near a Russian plane. if they really desperate.  

So Russia be really prepared to keep distance of Turkey ,US and its coalition planes and be ready
to evade any missile fired at them.. if they fly close to their border, because they could try it..
with the pretext that Russia "violated its airspace" .  Is all a dirty politics ,game of provocations to try to damage Russian Airforce Image and damage Putin support in Russia for the Syrian war.

I will not be surprising if the NATO parrot secretary general is on meetings with Turkey with
erdogan ,with US airforce generals.. planning how to try to shot down a Russian plane.. and do it in a way that can be seen as Russia violating Turkey airspace. It was the pentagon top man
that recently was threatening Russia with really "bad luck" of their planes shutdown soon..and
terrorist attack in Russia.. If that is not hostile and language of mafia gangs and criminals
then no idea what could be..