Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #6

JohninMK wrote:Looks like she is flying the Turkish flag. Moscow said last week that it flying it was a courtesy at the discretion of the ship's Captain, not mandated in the Treaty.

Be a long time before we see her passing there again.

ult wrote:

JohninMK wrote:Looks like she is flying the Turkish flag. Moscow said last week that it flying it was a courtesy at the discretion of the ship's Captain, not mandated in the Treaty.

Be a long time before we see her passing there again.

lol. It's not a turkish flag. It's a flag of task force commander.

ult wrote:

JohninMK wrote:Looks like she is flying the Turkish flag. Moscow said last week that it flying it was a courtesy at the discretion of the ship's Captain, not mandated in the Treaty.

Be a long time before we see her passing there again.

lol. It's not a turkish flag. It's a flag of task force commander.

sepheronx wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Ivan the Colorado wrote:I'm personally not a fan of having troops risking their lives for a war that isn't ours. We are in Syria on the gesture of goodwill to Assad and the people of Syria. With all that said, it is understandable that in order to ensure a quicker victory there must be some presence on the ground. Russian military today is almost in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan or even the Russian Army in Chechnya. Russia's leadership isn't throwing away the lives of their soldiers anymore. As long as the troops come home alive and well, let them do their thing.

You're right, the Russian military today is in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan. It has nowhere near the ability to sustain that many troops far away at the bottom of Central Asia for over a decade, has nowhere near the resources, supplies, logistics, ammo at its disposal that the Soviet Army had, far less money and resources to spend on economically developing the region or even building up military and transport infrastructure all over the place.

Actually, it does.

Economics aside, which is actually very easy to handle and probably would bring in more money to Russia overall, there is so much leftovers from Soviet times, they are handing them over to Syrian military.  They have the personnel as well too.

Money?  Well, it is in the form of investments.  As well, they can also justify it under various training costs as they already have with the aircrafts.

Your statement is eerily similar to those who said Russia would not commit at all due to the very same issues.  Yet, Russia rebuilt an airfield, building another one now if rumors are correct, has dozens and dozens of planes, lots of people available, air defense systems, and logistical supply chain and what seems like a never ending supply of cruise missiles and bombs.  And they done it really cheap too from previous records.  Oh, and they made the movements in very short period of time, that got even the US in a bitch fit too.

So I would say you are quite wrong, as Russia has done quite a lot to prove us wrong.  They even rebuilt a repair plant quite quickly and with no word of it till it was finished.  Clearly money is readily available.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

ult wrote:

JohninMK wrote:Looks like she is flying the Turkish flag. Moscow said last week that it flying it was a courtesy at the discretion of the ship's Captain, not mandated in the Treaty.

Be a long time before we see her passing there again.

lol. It's not a turkish flag. It's a flag of task force commander.

Thanks, ult.

flamming_python wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Ivan the Colorado wrote:I'm personally not a fan of having troops risking their lives for a war that isn't ours. We are in Syria on the gesture of goodwill to Assad and the people of Syria. With all that said, it is understandable that in order to ensure a quicker victory there must be some presence on the ground. Russian military today is almost in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan or even the Russian Army in Chechnya. Russia's leadership isn't throwing away the lives of their soldiers anymore. As long as the troops come home alive and well, let them do their thing.

You're right, the Russian military today is in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan. It has nowhere near the ability to sustain that many troops far away at the bottom of Central Asia for over a decade, has nowhere near the resources, supplies, logistics, ammo at its disposal that the Soviet Army had, far less money and resources to spend on economically developing the region or even building up military and transport infrastructure all over the place.

Actually, it does.

Economics aside, which is actually very easy to handle and probably would bring in more money to Russia overall, there is so much leftovers from Soviet times, they are handing them over to Syrian military.  They have the personnel as well too.

Money?  Well, it is in the form of investments.  As well, they can also justify it under various training costs as they already have with the aircrafts.

Your statement is eerily similar to those who said Russia would not commit at all due to the very same issues.  Yet, Russia rebuilt an airfield, building another one now if rumors are correct, has dozens and dozens of planes, lots of people available, air defense systems, and logistical supply chain and what seems like a never ending supply of cruise missiles and bombs.  And they done it really cheap too from previous records.  Oh, and they made the movements in very short period of time, that got even the US in a bitch fit too.

So I would say you are quite wrong, as Russia has done quite a lot to prove us wrong.  They even rebuilt a repair plant quite quickly and with no word of it till it was finished.  Clearly money is readily available.

The USSR deployed over 100,000 troops in Afghanistan. Russia has at most 2% of that in Syria right now.
The amount of military infrastructure they built and operated there dwarfed Russia's current repair and reconstruction efforts in Syria. Not to mention the huge amount of civilian infrastructure that was built and restored in Afghanistan even while a war was raging.

Handing over Soviet leftovers to the Syrian military? Well now, you said it yourself.
Compare handing over something lying around, to building all that stuff in the first place.

Never ending supply of missiles and bombs? Oh their supply is not never ending. Large, but it will run out. In fact most of them were built during that same USSR, again. It's not Russia's accomplishment on this count; to use those huge stockpiles for WW3 that you've inherited and would otherwise have to dispose of soon anyway.
But it's true that a good part of those munitions are modern ones that have been (and are being) produced by Russia.
In any case you should see how many ordnance the Soviet forces were dropping while they were fighting in Afghanistan. If we're to use just a crude calculation - then nearly 330 sorties per day. That's 3-4x more than what Russia is flying in Syria right now.

About the speed, yes that's right, Russia's actions were very quick, unexpected, and not very transparent.
Yet somehow I prefer the Soviet way - when the Politburo at least debated amongst themselves for an entire year before deciding to send our servicemen into harms way fighting in a foreign country.
Here it was like - that's it, we've decided, and now we've done it, case closed. No-one here even had time to form an opinion or get their bearings. All of a sudden we're committed with our own troops - to a civil war in a Middle Eastern country.

Note I'm not really criticizing the Russian campaign in Syria on anything in particular. It's meant to be on a different scale to the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan; in fact they explicitly want to avoid that experience by avoiding approaching anywhere near the commitment that was seen there. And the situation is quite different too, as is the mission for the Russian military.

Cyberspec wrote:@FP,

The current Russian Army is more efficient and nimble compared to the Soviet Army and it's only getting better....interesting that you forget to mention that the Western Armies are also a shadow of themselves compared to Cold War standards in terms of numbers....I find it comical it takes a coalition of several countries to muster a couple of squadrons....and these guys are going to conquer Russia and China

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Russian Navy chases off Turkish vessel impeding drill platform transit in Black Sea

...................According to the diplomat, Turkey should apologize for the attack on the Russian Su-24 aircraft, which resulted in the death of two Russian servicemen. The Turkish authorities are also expected to find and punish those responsible for the incident as well as pay damage compensation to the Russian side..........

CAIRO (Sputnik) — The Free Syrian Army is ready to provide Russia with data indicating positions of Daesh terrorists in Syria, head of FSA intelligence, Gen. Hossam Awak, told Sputnik on Monday.

"We have precise intelligence, documents, maps, and we can share them with the Russians so that their strikes on Daesh are more effective," Awak said.

Russian Warplanes Launch 30-40 Airstrikes Daily to Support Free Syrian Army
He believes that the information provided by Damascus is not accurate enough, which makes Russia's airstikes not as efficient as they could be.

"We really want to cooperate with the Russians in fight against Daesh on condition that their airstrikes hit solely Daesh targets," the general stressed.

Russia's Defense Ministry has repeatedly assured that all airstrikes on terrorist targets in Syria are carried out after thorough data checks and with high precision.

The Russo-Iranian Military Coalition in Syria may be Deepening
By Frederick W. Kagan, Marie Donovan, Paul Bucala
December 14, 2015

The Russo-Iranian military coalition in Syria may be deeper than many have believed. The Iranian armed forces appear to be allowing Russian aircraft to use their military airfields in support of combat operations over Syria. This development is remarkable: Iran is one of the most virulently anti-colonial regimes in the world, and yet it is allowing a former colonial power that had partitioned Persia with Great Britain to place military forces on its territory. But Russia likely requires access to an airfield in Iran to support its military operations in the region, and Tehran seems willing to permit it. Contrary to Western analysts’ arguments that Russia is marginalizing Iran in Syria or even driving it out, Russia appears to be more dependent militarily on maintaining a strong relationship with Tehran than has been previously thought.

Iranian fighters have been escorting Russian bombers as they transit Iranian airspace for some time, as can be seen in a video filmed and released by the Russian air force (reported by The Aviationist). Military aviation specialist Babak Taghvaei reports (as cited by The Aviationist) that Russian Tu-95MS Bear, Tu-160 Blackjack, and Tu-22M Backfire bombers have flown a southwesterly path through Iranian airspace since late November on their way to missions against rebel and Islamic state forces in Syria, flying southwest of Tehran, passing Esfahan and Ahvaz, and crossing over the Iraqi border north of Basra. Satellite imagery recently obtained and analyzed by AllSource Analysis now shows that advanced Russian combat aircraft have used Iranian Air Force bases to stage on the way to or from bombing runs in Syria at least once.

One such combat aircraft, a Russian Su-34 “Fullback” strike fighter, was seen on the main parking apron of Shahid Nojeh Air Base in the northwestern province of Hamedan, Iran on November 23, 2015 and remained there for at least two days. An Il-76 “Candid” transport aircraft arrived likely in the afternoon or evening of November 24. Both had departed by December 5, according to AllSource analysts.

The Su-34 is an advanced fighter-bomber with a range of 2,500 miles (with a full weapons load) that is capable of aerial refueling. It is reportedly capable of attacking four targets simultaneously and can fire air-to-air missiles as well as air-to-ground ordnance. Its cockpit is armored to allow it to engage in close air support operations like the U.S. A-10. It supposedly has a greatly reduced radar cross-section, making it harder to detect and track, and advanced radar and avionics.

The timing of the aircraft sightings suggest that the Su-34 may have developed mechanical trouble, landed at Shahid Nojeh Air Base, waited for the Il-76 to arrive with maintenance equipment and/or personnel, and promptly left. AllSource analysts have not seen indications that Russian aircraft have used this air base at other times, although Taghvaee’s graphic shows two Russian Il-78 tanker aircraft on stand-by based out of Hamedan (without offering any evidence for that claim, however).

Shahid Nojeh Air Base, however, offers certain advantages if Tehran’s aim is to conceal the active support it is giving to Russian military operations from its own territory. Although Iran has many airfields on the flight-path of Russian planes flying to and from Syria, Shahid Nojeh is a purely military airfield with no civilian element, and it is located well away (about 50 km) from the nearest significant population center, Hamedan Province’s capital, Hamedan City. It is ideal for providing covert ground support to Russian combat missions.

The base itself is otherwise relatively unremarkable and strategically unimportant. English- and Farsi-language bloggers have noted that it has housed the 31st TRS (Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron) and the 31st TFS (Tactical Fighter Squadron) with RF-4 and F-4 D/E Phantom fighter-bombers. Iranian news footage indicates that the F-4s flew out of the base as of mid-2014. The base does not appear to have an organic complement of F-14s, for example, or of any of the Soviet-made aircraft that make up the relatively more advanced elements of Iran’s air force arsenal. The base is nevertheless quite large with a 15,000-foot runway, extensive taxiways, and multiple hangars and bunkers—all seemingly in good repair. It is an ideal facility for Russian aircraft to stage from.

In addition to highlighting the irony of the Islamic Republic of Iran, a fiercely anti-colonial state, in allowing a former imperial power to re-establish bases on its terrain, this incident also shows the degree to which Russia needs a strong relationship with Iran to continue significant military operations in Syria without dramatically expanding its footprint there. Vladimir Putin has been using aircraft and naval vessels from Russia and the Caspian and Mediterranean Seas to attack targets in Syria in order to demonstrate his ability to project force over long distances. He could not sustain the intensity of the air campaign he is now waging in Syria without assets such as the long-range bombers and fighter-bombers that remain based in Russia, however. Shifting those bombers—like the intercontinental-ranged and nuclear-weapons-capable Blackjack—to Syria would be extremely provocative. It would also expose those airframes to attack by rebels who are often able to come within rocket and artillery range of the Latakia airfield at which they would be based.

Putin therefore requires a clear and reliable air corridor from Russia to Syria. That corridor must transit Iranian airspace, given the rising tensions between Russia and Turkey. But the flights are long, and prudence requires the ability to set aircraft down on the way to or from their runs into what is, after all, a dangerous combat zone. Some sort of agreement for at least in extremis landing and maintenance operations in Iran is therefore necessary. This fact increases Russia’s dependence on Iran and suggests that there will be limits to the degree to which Putin can afford to antagonize Iran’s leaders in pursuit of his own policies and interests in Syria.

ult wrote:

JohninMK wrote:.............
There will be volunteers and units fighting round the block for postings there, especially at this time of year.

Assume the armchairs/TV/surround sound area is for officers! My father was in the RAF and when we were in Singapore the armchairs in the Officers Mess moved outside on the balcony and downstairs for the open air cinema. That was the life!

JohninMK wrote:

ult wrote:

There will be volunteers and units fighting round the block for postings there, especially at this time of year.

Assume the armchairs/TV/surround sound area is for officers! My father was in the RAF and when we were in Singapore the armchairs in the Officers Mess moved outside on the balcony and downstairs for the open air cinema. That was the life!

"We really want to cooperate with the Russians in fight against Daesh on condition that their airstrikes hit solely Daesh targets," the general stressed.

Cyrus the great wrote:

It's nice to see that American officials are now admitting that Russia's intervention is having an effect on the ground. It will take time, but thanks to the Russians, the Syrians will get their country back.