+84
TMA1
ALAMO
Arkanghelsk
Krepost
Mir
Podlodka77
owais.usmani
ult
lancelot
limb
Kiko
magnumcromagnon
Rasisuki Nebia
lyle6
andalusia
LMFS
miroslav
xeno
ultimatewarrior
thegopnik
Rodion_Romanovic
miketheterrible
Labrador
mnztr
Ned86
franco
hoom
PapaDragon
walle83
KiloGolf
Hole
verkhoturye51
Tsavo Lion
Peŕrier
Singular_Transform
Arrow
Project Canada
Honesroc
Tolstoy
Singular_trafo
SeigSoloyvov
Isos
nastle77
slasher
Svyatoslavich
Big_Gazza
artjomh
Morpheus Eberhardt
JohninMK
GunshipDemocracy
Stealthflanker
RTN
jhelb
Kimppis
Dima
Werewolf
mack8
flamming_python
eridan
kvs
Zivo
sepheronx
max steel
Austin
chicken
par far
Mike E
KomissarBojanchev
Flyingdutchman
collegeboy16
etaepsilonk
navyfield
calripson
Vann7
George1
dionis
TheArmenian
Hachimoto
TR1
Viktor
GarryB
runaway
Admin
Russian Patriot
88 posters
Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion
GarryB- Posts : 40515
Points : 41015
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
I remember reading about that before I ever read about a Seawolf submarine so they were known publicly in the west when the Seawolf was built.
Austin- Posts : 7617
Points : 8014
Join date : 2010-05-08
Location : India
GarryB wrote:Some members claim they are no longer made and no longer in service...
The Akula in question is the oldest one and not upgraded yet so they do have 650 mm TT
Newer Yasen and even Indian Navy Akula INS Chakra does not have 650 mm TT , They are all standardised on 533 mm TT
George1- Posts : 18514
Points : 19019
Join date : 2011-12-22
Location : Greece
Nuclear submarine forces: non-combat losses
1. SSBN К-223 "Podolsk" pr.667BDR (PF)
2. SSBN K-433 "St. George the Victorious" pr.667BDR (PF)
There is information that “Podolsk” was written off as early as 2016, and “Victorious” a year later (reference 1), which seems to be true, since, from this time, the press service of the Ministry of Defense stopped publishing reports about training combat activity of both SSBNs. It is strange that even the slow-moving cruisers were not left on combat duty in the database before replacing them with Borei-A - a tender for unloading spent nuclear fuel with a deadline of 30.11.2019 (reference 2) does not give them that opportunity. Full utilization should be performed in 2021 (reference 3). Thus, the Pacific Fleet again remains with three “strategists” until the approach of two more 955А (at best, in 2020–2022). After their arrival, Ryazan will be written off, and the 25th division of the submarine will have to be content with four SSBNs, although in fairness (to achieve parity with the Federation Council) there should be seven of them.
3. SSN K-322 "Kashalot" pr.971 (PF)
Since 2003, it has been in conservation (for long-term storage) in the Amursky SZ (ref. 4). In January 2015, negotiations were underway to transfer K-322 to Indian leasing (ref. 5), which ended without result. The ASZ is not able to repair the “Kashalot” - the competence is lost, the plant barely copes with the corvettes, its status is lowered to the level of the builder’s “mosquito” fleet (MRK pr. 22800). There is no question of transferring the boat to the ZVEZ Zvezda or to the Zvezdochka CS, since they themselves are in a production stupor. Therefore, 2015 can be considered for the SSN a sort of a point of no return at sea as part of the Indian or Pacific Fleet naval forces.
4. SSN K-331 "Magadan" pr.971 (PF)
From at least September 28, 2012, the boat was under repair with the modernization of Zvezda DVZ (according to some sources, from 03.2014 at the CS Dalzavod, which seems rather strange) (ref. 6). In 2015, it was reported that K-331 would return to the fleet by the end of the year (reference , but this did not happen, and in 2017 the name of the Magadan was assigned to the third submarine of Project 636.3, which will be built on the Admiralty shipyards for the Pacific Fleet (Ref. 9). What exactly happened to the atomic "Magadan" could not be clarified, but the very fact of the transfer of the name assigned to K-331 in 2001 by order of the commander of the Pacific Fleet (and not the boat commander on a proactive basis, as it happened in those years) suggests that it was preferred to to give up its repair in 2015.
5. SSN K-295 "Samara" pr.971 (PF)
In September, it will be five years from the day when Pacific Samara and Bratsk (K-391), passing along the Northern Sea Route aboard a Dutch transport vessel, arrived at the Zvezdochka CS for renovation with modernization, which was formerly the general director of the CSC and KGSC V. Nikitin signed up to perform for three years (reference 11). Otherwise, you will not call it a shame, but the repair of both boats has not yet begun (with the exception, perhaps, of selective fault detection). For almost five long years, they stood at the Zvezdochka (Samara) embankment, first in the White Sea Naval Base, waiting to be put on a solid foundation. In the end, they waited for the Indians, who came to choose the next 971, to take it on lease. There is information that negotiations are coming to an end, the price is agreed, it remains only to choose a boat - K-295 or K-391 (ref. 12). Hindus are experienced and skillful negotiators, and most likely they will choose Samara, which is 5.5 years younger than Bratsk, after which the CSSC will be engaged in its deep modernization with the replacement of a nuclear reactor, which is supposed to be completed in 2025. As a result we will lose another “Shchuka-B”, which we urgently need.
6. PLUB B-239 "Karp" pr. 945 (NF)
7. SSN B-276 Kostroma pr. 945 (NF)
The state contract for repairs with the modernization of two titanium SSNs was signed at the end of 2012. In the spring of 2014, Zvezdochka began preparations for the repair of Karp, which has been in the company since 1994. However, on February 24, 2015, before it started, the works were unexpectedly collapsed (only managed to unload nuclear fuel). The main reason for the termination of work is the high cost of modernization, commensurate with the cost of building "Ash" (surprisingly, this was not noticed when signing the contract). To date, the resumption of modernization "Karp" seems extremely unlikely (link 13, link 14, link 15). “Kostroma”, in general, never reached “Zvezdochka”, having stood all this time in its base in Vidyaevo. In general, the story of the SSN pr. 945 is very reminiscent of an adventure, started, most likely, by the leadership of the Center, with the aim to collect more orders without realizing the impossibility of their fulfillment.
8. SSN B-414 "Daniil Moskovskiy", 671 RTMK (NF)
B-414 is the least painful loss for our atomic subsurface. Having ceased to go out to sea 6.5 years ago (tentatively, from the end of 2012 - reference 16), this outdated generation 2-plus boat did not weaken the combat capability of the Northern Fleet too much. The absence of any hints at the possible restoration of technical readiness of “Daniel” (including in the tender documentation on the public procurement website) spoke for itself, and the announcement of the impending utilization of the SSN in 2021 (reference 3) did not cause the slightest surprise.
Conclusion
As a result, over the past few years, the nuclear submarine forces of the Russian Navy have lost at least eight submarines of Soviet projects. The number is not final - it may increase due to the limited capacity of our ship repair yards and the Olympic tranquility with which the commander-in-chief of the Navy and the military-political leadership of the country look at the nuclear crisis. Today, one can be quite confident in the combat readiness of only five multi-purpose SSNs - Severodvinsk (885, NF), Gepard (971.1, NF), Kuzbass (971, PF), Pskov (project 945A, NF) and Obninsk (project 671RTMK, NF), to a lesser extent, Nizhny Novgorod (Project 945A, NF). Another seven boats are under repair or awaiting repair - six pr. 971 and one pr. 671RTMK (ref. 17). Just think, the once great and mighty component of the general-purpose nuclear submarine fleet of the USSR has shrunk to 13 units, half of which are not on the move. The situation is aggravated by a ridiculous delay in the delivery of Kazan due to some auxiliary units and assemblies (ref. 18, ref. 20). Comrades, admirals, we need to urgently do something with this mess.
https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/203848.html
PapaDragon- Posts : 13467
Points : 13507
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
But hey, Russian Navy is about to consider to start working on design proposal for hypothetical aircraft carrier
Because that's what's important...
Because that's what's important...
GarryB- Posts : 40515
Points : 41015
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Work on a new carrier has nothing to do with problems putting submarines into service, and to be honest all the subs in the world wont be much good if a country like the US or the UK for that matter might decide to block waterway access for ships that are either Russian or are trading with Russia... you need surface ships to deal with that... and to have a substantial global presence.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4888
Points : 4878
Join date : 2014-08-25
Location : Melbourne, Australia
Conclusion
As a result, over the past few years, the nuclear submarine forces of the Russian Navy have lost at least eight submarines of Soviet projects. The number is not final - it may increase due to the limited capacity of our ship repair yards and the Olympic tranquility with which the commander-in-chief of the Navy and the military-political leadership of the country look at the nuclear crisis. Today, one can be quite confident in the combat readiness of only five multi-purpose SSNs - Severodvinsk (885, NF), Gepard (971.1, NF), Kuzbass (971, PF), Pskov (project 945A, NF) and Obninsk (project 671RTMK, NF), to a lesser extent, Nizhny Novgorod (Project 945A, NF). Another seven boats are under repair or awaiting repair - six pr. 971 and one pr. 671RTMK (ref. 17). Just think, the once great and mighty component of the general-purpose nuclear submarine fleet of the USSR has shrunk to 13 units, half of which are not on the move. The situation is aggravated by a ridiculous delay in the delivery of Kazan due to some auxiliary units and assemblies (ref. 18, ref. 20). Comrades, admirals, we need to urgently do something with this mess.
Has the author "forgotten" the 971s Pantera and Tigr? Plus Leopard is due to be back in service by end of this year after modernisation (incl Kalibres) with Volk to follow. Dunno what the status is with Vepr whose upgrade was reported as being completed by end 2017. Maybe active but unannounced for some reason?
If those 3 are in service in the next year or two that will be 7x of the 971s, pls the Nerpa is set to return after expiry of the lease to India in 2022. Now add the 1x 885 and 7x 885Ms, plus the 8x 949As and the Belgorod/Kharbarovsk. Now for SSKs, add the various 12x active 877s and 6+3 636s.
Its not the USN, but its not a joke either. That force deployed to guard Russias home waters would be pretty formidable. Sure, it would be better if Kashalot, Madagan, Samara & Bratsk were all upgraded, but they might be the worse 4 of the 971 fleet and sidelined to save cash for better use elsewhere.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13467
Points : 13507
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
They haven't laid down or ordered a single new submarine in years, their existing fleet is slowly but surely expiring, production capacities sit idle and Navy is wasting time on pointless vanity side-projects
If they think situation is bad now just wait until current production gap kicks in several years down the road, it will make 90s look like the good old days
Singular_Transform- Posts : 1032
Points : 1014
Join date : 2016-11-13
There are 4 Borei , 5 Yassen and 1-3 Belgorod class submarine in manufacturing.
It is over ten in production.
Considering that the target time between laid down and launch is 4 years, and maximum 2 submarine can be expected to launch each year they have to start to laid down new submarine in 2021 if they manage to launch the current ones two each year in 19-20-21.
But c'mon, in 2017 - two submarine , 18-0 , 19-at least 1 , maximum 3.
It gives one submarine / year average speed, not that bad considering the USA managed to make around 1 Virginia/year since 2003.
And Russia makes three classes of submarines, not one like the USA.
It is over ten in production.
Considering that the target time between laid down and launch is 4 years, and maximum 2 submarine can be expected to launch each year they have to start to laid down new submarine in 2021 if they manage to launch the current ones two each year in 19-20-21.
But c'mon, in 2017 - two submarine , 18-0 , 19-at least 1 , maximum 3.
It gives one submarine / year average speed, not that bad considering the USA managed to make around 1 Virginia/year since 2003.
And Russia makes three classes of submarines, not one like the USA.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13467
Points : 13507
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Singular_Transform wrote:There are 4 Borei , 5 Yassen and 1-3 Belgorod class submarine in manufacturing
It is over ten in production.....
Belgorod was one-off, there is one Khabarovsk-class in production but that's it
10 in total
Problem is downtime: there were no new subs ordered or laid down in nearly a decade and they already have 3 empty slots on production line (Kazan, Knyaz Vladimir, Belgorord) and soon to be 4 (Khabarovsk)
Singular_Transform wrote:But c'mon, in 2017 - two submarine , 18-0 , 19-at least 1 , maximum 3...
There will be no more in 2019 and one that was launched was spy sub not combat sub
Singular_Transform wrote:...And Russia makes three classes of submarines, not one like the USA.
USA builds subs in regular intervals and without decade long gaps
Hole- Posts : 11115
Points : 11093
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
First priority is strategic deterrence = Borei (Bulava) Belgorod/Khabarovsk (Poseidon) and Yassen (Kalibr/Zircon).
Besides that coastal defence is important, to keep enemy carriers/amphibious ships and subs away = Kilos and Ladas.
Until 2025/27 there will be:
8 Bulava carriers (3 Borei + 5 Borei-A)
4 Poseidon carriers (Belgorod + 3 Khabarovsk)
7 Kalibr/Zircon carriers (1 Yassen + 6 Yassen-M)
12 new build Kilos
around 12 older, modernised Kilos
up to 12 Ladas
Plus 6 - 8 Pr. 949 (some modernised) and 10 - 12 Pr. 971 (some modernised)
Maybe there will be new orders for Borei-A and Yassen-M(?) subs beginning in 2020/21. The new Borei-A´s would replace the old Pr. 667BRDM subs.
According to current plans the first Husky will be laid down in 2023. From 2025 onwards the serial production will start. Giving the smaller size and lower prize of these subs the Navy could order 2 - 3 a year. That means between 2030 and 2035 they could receive 10+ subs which will be enough to replace the old Pr. 971 boats.
Besides that coastal defence is important, to keep enemy carriers/amphibious ships and subs away = Kilos and Ladas.
Until 2025/27 there will be:
8 Bulava carriers (3 Borei + 5 Borei-A)
4 Poseidon carriers (Belgorod + 3 Khabarovsk)
7 Kalibr/Zircon carriers (1 Yassen + 6 Yassen-M)
12 new build Kilos
around 12 older, modernised Kilos
up to 12 Ladas
Plus 6 - 8 Pr. 949 (some modernised) and 10 - 12 Pr. 971 (some modernised)
Maybe there will be new orders for Borei-A and Yassen-M(?) subs beginning in 2020/21. The new Borei-A´s would replace the old Pr. 667BRDM subs.
According to current plans the first Husky will be laid down in 2023. From 2025 onwards the serial production will start. Giving the smaller size and lower prize of these subs the Navy could order 2 - 3 a year. That means between 2030 and 2035 they could receive 10+ subs which will be enough to replace the old Pr. 971 boats.
Hole- Posts : 11115
Points : 11093
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
PapaDragon wrote:
USA builds subs in regular intervals and without decade long gaps
First Columbus will be laid down in 2035. That´s a 38 year gap between two SSBN classes.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13467
Points : 13507
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Hole wrote:PapaDragon wrote:
USA builds subs in regular intervals and without decade long gaps
First Columbus will be laid down in 2035. That´s a 38 year gap between two SSBN classes.
And continuous line of SSNs in the meantime
Don't bring USN into this discussion, it just makes VMF look like clowns
Singular_Transform- Posts : 1032
Points : 1014
Join date : 2016-11-13
PapaDragon wrote:Hole wrote:PapaDragon wrote:
USA builds subs in regular intervals and without decade long gaps
First Columbus will be laid down in 2035. That´s a 38 year gap between two SSBN classes.
And continuous line of SSNs in the meantime
Don't bring USN into this discussion, it just makes VMF look like clowns
Virginia is not comparable to the Yassen, that is like compare a destroyer to a frigate.
And the shipyard performance is quite good, looks like they managed to fix the production line just now.
And again, they have 10+ ship in the process, and many more waiting modernisation.
The metal cutting/assembly is easy, the hard bit is to make and integrate all of the complex systems.
And as it seems the Kazan now float ...
PapaDragon- Posts : 13467
Points : 13507
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Singular_Transform wrote:...And as it seems the Kazan now float ...
And has to be back in dry dock again because assembly was all over the place
Also, they had to rush replacement of components with untested local products because those euro-loving morons designed strategic naval asset around imported equipment
If you are dumb enough to do something like that then at least have common sense to buy required amount for entire series plus spares before starting construction
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4888
Points : 4878
Join date : 2014-08-25
Location : Melbourne, Australia
PapaDragon wrote:
it will make 90s look like the good old days
Now you're just being a twat... FFS...
PapaDragon- Posts : 13467
Points : 13507
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Big_Gazza wrote:PapaDragon wrote:
it will make 90s look like the good old days
Now you're just being a twat... FFS...
For pointing out numbers? Sure, let's go with that if you want to.
Still doesn't change a thing about Russian Navy hitting a critical and perhaps even terminal bottleneck before long.
Singular_Transform- Posts : 1032
Points : 1014
Join date : 2016-11-13
PapaDragon wrote:Singular_Transform wrote:...And as it seems the Kazan now float ...
And has to be back in dry dock again because assembly was all over the place
Also, they had to rush replacement of components with untested local products because those euro-loving morons designed strategic naval asset around imported equipment
If you are dumb enough to do something like that then at least have common sense to buy required amount for entire series plus spares before starting construction
These comment just showing that you have no clue how the manufacturing happens.
They need no more than 8 sub in manufacturing if they want to make twice as much submarine than the USA in each year.
The current manufacturing speed is very impressive anyway.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4888
Points : 4878
Join date : 2014-08-25
Location : Melbourne, Australia
PapaDragon wrote:Big_Gazza wrote:PapaDragon wrote:
it will make 90s look like the good old days
Now you're just being a twat... FFS...
For pointing out numbers?
No, for being relentlessly pessimistic and pushing a narrative... here's an example:
Problem is downtime: there were no new subs ordered or laid down in nearly a decade and they already have 3 empty slots on production line (Kazan, Knyaz Vladimir, Belgorord) and soon to be 4 (Khabarovsk)
You must be joking????
5x Yasens laid down between 2013-17. 5x Borei laid down between 2012-16. Khabarovsk laid down in 2014. 8x Varshavyanka laid down between 2010-17. Lets also add another 8x export 636.1 between 2012-18 (not for Russian service, but still built in the "antiquated, shoddy and collapsing" Rusky shipyards).
BTW the accursed Seppostani continuum don't build SSKs, so ignoring them when comparing US and Russian build rates is at best careless, at worse its downright deceitful. US still builds a lot more than Russia, but thats to be expected from a ruthless global hegemon that needs to leverage the planets wealth and resources in a failing bid to shore up the ticking timebomb of debt inflation and excessive financialisation of a failing economy.
As for RuN sub numbers, when the Yasens enter service, and the 3x 971s under active repair re-enter the fleet, the relative strength of RuN SSN force will be hugely greater than its current level. But no.... you'd prefer to run around with yer arse in yer hands screaming about the how sky is falling...
Yasen + modernised Akulas + Husky to follow (when ready), plus Oscar carrier-killers and a pair of Sierras. Sounds like a reasonable defense force to me. The last thing Russia needs is to adopt US style global megalomania and the savaging of national financial health that it brings. Russia is on the right path these days, and they don't need to repeat the mistakes of the (Soviet) past.
GarryB- Posts : 40515
Points : 41015
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Papa... comparing any near future date to the serious economic collapses of the 1990s is stupid... Russia technology is in nothing like the state it was then... it had inherited some stuff from Soviet times and found a lot of the stuff they made was built from components now made in foreign countries like the Ukraine and Belarus and the other former soviet states.
The situation even today means they have near western level equipment and in some cases better than average western equipment, and higher and higher percentages of materials and components are Russian made.
In fact the majority of American military material is not made and cannot be sourced from US manufacturers because US companies have outsourced production to cheaper labour offshore... they don't even have tent fabric made in the US...
At current levels and based on current agreements Russia needs about 500 SLBM warheads, and they have easily enough SSBNs to carry those... everything else the navy does is gravy right now... but in the near future they want to expand it to reach around the world for trade and economic reasons mainly and a cruiser or a 20K ton destroyer send a much clearer message than the suggestion that their might be an SSGN lurking around the place...
The situation even today means they have near western level equipment and in some cases better than average western equipment, and higher and higher percentages of materials and components are Russian made.
In fact the majority of American military material is not made and cannot be sourced from US manufacturers because US companies have outsourced production to cheaper labour offshore... they don't even have tent fabric made in the US...
At current levels and based on current agreements Russia needs about 500 SLBM warheads, and they have easily enough SSBNs to carry those... everything else the navy does is gravy right now... but in the near future they want to expand it to reach around the world for trade and economic reasons mainly and a cruiser or a 20K ton destroyer send a much clearer message than the suggestion that their might be an SSGN lurking around the place...
kvs- Posts : 15849
Points : 15984
Join date : 2014-09-11
Location : Turdope's Kanada
Big_Gazza wrote:PapaDragon wrote:Big_Gazza wrote:PapaDragon wrote:
it will make 90s look like the good old days
Now you're just being a twat... FFS...
For pointing out numbers?
No, for being relentlessly pessimistic and pushing a narrative... here's an example:
Problem is downtime: there were no new subs ordered or laid down in nearly a decade and they already have 3 empty slots on production line (Kazan, Knyaz Vladimir, Belgorord) and soon to be 4 (Khabarovsk)
You must be joking????
5x Yasens laid down between 2013-17. 5x Borei laid down between 2012-16. Khabarovsk laid down in 2014. 8x Varshavyanka laid down between 2010-17. Lets also add another 8x export 636.1 between 2012-18 (not for Russian service, but still built in the "antiquated, shoddy and collapsing" Rusky shipyards).
BTW the accursed Seppostani continuum don't build SSKs, so ignoring them when comparing US and Russian build rates is at best careless, at worse its downright deceitful. US still builds a lot more than Russia, but thats to be expected from a ruthless global hegemon that needs to leverage the planets wealth and resources in a failing bid to shore up the ticking timebomb of debt inflation and excessive financialisation of a failing economy.
As for RuN sub numbers, when the Yasens enter service, and the 3x 971s under active repair re-enter the fleet, the relative strength of RuN SSN force will be hugely greater than its current level. But no.... you'd prefer to run around with yer arse in yer hands screaming about the how sky is falling...
Yasen + modernised Akulas + Husky to follow (when ready), plus Oscar carrier-killers and a pair of Sierras. Sounds like a reasonable defense force to me. The last thing Russia needs is to adopt US style global megalomania and the savaging of national financial health that it brings. Russia is on the right path these days, and they don't need to repeat the mistakes of the (Soviet) past.
The often cited "fact" that the USSR "bankrupted" itself with military spending is a western myth. Capitalist economy metrics are used to evaluate a command economy
with the predictable BS conclusions. The USSR could allocated any amount of resources to any set of tasks without any price costs. That is what a command economy
does. It operates by directive and not prices and payments. The ruble was a nominal voucher for controlling the distribution of consumer goods, food, etc. Costs imbalances
and inflation in command economics appear as shortages and low quality. There was no indication that the 1980s USSR military was a burden that it could not bear.
There were plenty of resources and people left to run the rest of the economy. And any figure you see estimating the size of the military in the USSR's GDP is not
credible since it is based on estimating prices. I have seen a figure of 30% of the USSR's GDP being allocated to the military. This figure is complete nonsense. It
would imply that over 25% of the population was working for military industrial complexes. That is between 1 and 4 and 1 in 3. That does not agree with any first
hand experience I or my relatives have in the USSR. And even if by some fluke this number was real. I don't see how that would undermine the USSR. The USSR
was fully capable of automating production lines and did not need 100% of its working age population to man production lines. It is clear to me that all the "bankruptcy"
claims are pure BS based on a total lack of understanding of the Soviet economy and its actual "costs" for doing any economic activity.
The USSR was brought down by rot from the top. Soviet elites felt themselves too poor compared to their western equivalents (which is an indication that the USSR
of the 1980s was not all that bad) and set out to regime change themselves in the guise of perestroika that bootsrapped a capitalist parasite class (which included
Khodorkovsky and Berezovsk) that was sitting and waiting for the inevitable privatization and shock therapy voodoo. The notion that the USSR accumulated some
sort of debt from its military "expenditures" (no such thing) is utterly absurd. The only way it could have "bankrupted" itself would have been for the military economy
to crowd out the civilian economy. There is precisely zero evidence for this having happened.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4888
Points : 4878
Join date : 2014-08-25
Location : Melbourne, Australia
kvs wrote:
The often cited "fact" that the USSR "bankrupted" itself with military spending is a western myth. Capitalist economy metrics are used to evaluate a command economy
with the predictable BS conclusions. The USSR could allocated any amount of resources to any set of tasks without any price costs.
It's not a question of "price" costs. Its about "opportunity" costs. Using resources and manpower on building a huge submarine fleet means that you can't use those resources for purposes that improve your peoples lives. An aircraft carrier doesn't generate economic returns, while a new train line does.
The USSR didn't put enough attention to improving the lives of its citizens (mainly because of the belligerent threat of the US) and people became disillusioned into thinking the grass was greener on the other side (it wasn't, unless you like being a serf working to enrich a selfish ruling class of elitist c_nts).
kvs- Posts : 15849
Points : 15984
Join date : 2014-09-11
Location : Turdope's Kanada
Big_Gazza wrote:kvs wrote:
The often cited "fact" that the USSR "bankrupted" itself with military spending is a western myth. Capitalist economy metrics are used to evaluate a command economy
with the predictable BS conclusions. The USSR could allocated any amount of resources to any set of tasks without any price costs.
It's not a question of "price" costs. Its about "opportunity" costs. Using resources and manpower on building a huge submarine fleet means that you can't use those resources for purposes that improve your peoples lives. An aircraft carrier doesn't generate economic returns, while a new train line does.
The USSR didn't put enough attention to improving the lives of its citizens (mainly because of the belligerent threat of the US) and people became disillusioned into thinking the grass was greener on the other side (it wasn't, unless you like being a serf working to enrich a selfish ruling class of elitist c_nts).
I do not agree. The USSR did produce consumer goods and produced them in needed amounts and with the right characteristics. It is
yet another western propaganda trope that Soviet goods were all crap. Shiny crap is what you have now totally dominating western
markets.
As with food shortages, consumer goods shortages were deliberately engineered to facilitate regime change. I already posted on the
dumping of food in massive amounts during the late 1980s. The same thing happened with consumer goods. So this was not a natural
outcome from both policy and capacity of the USSR command economy. It was pure intrigue and corruption. When the authoritarians
in charge decide to change economic systems, there is nothing the grass roots can do but go for the ride. People think that
revolutions are easy and spontaneous. No, they are expensive and organized. Nobody was organizing any resistance to Gorby's
perestrokia since it was supposed to make people's lives better. The whole system fell apart too fast for any organized resistance
to the shock therapy economics that came after 1991. People were confused about the source of the shortages and the crisis.
As for today, Russians got lucky that they got "tyrant" Putin. No system can stay functional without the right people in charge.
This is not understood by the vast majority of the humans on this planet. They have swallowed the BS that magical self-regulating
political and economic systems exist. In the real world we have the total farce of the "checks and balances" in the USA. The
rot is permeating the whole system and it is now a self-defeating joke. Only if key positions are staffed by people who do their
jobs and can do them well that you get functional systems. This is a real challenge when most people are easily tempted by money
and will cheat to get it if they have a chance. And it is even worse, since corruption is an organized crime like process where
there is a slow infiltration of compromised and networked individuals in key positions. There are no checks and balances for such
decay.
When Putin leaves the scene, Russia may get some bureaucratic nobody who will not engage in the required "tyranny". And things can
go south just as fast if not faster as in the case of the USSR during the late 1980s.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13467
Points : 13507
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Big_Gazza wrote:kvs wrote:
The often cited "fact" that the USSR "bankrupted" itself with military spending is a western myth. Capitalist economy metrics are used to evaluate a command economy
with the predictable BS conclusions. The USSR could allocated any amount of resources to any set of tasks without any price costs.
It's not a question of "price" costs. Its about "opportunity" costs. Using resources and manpower on building a huge submarine fleet means that you can't use those resources for purposes that improve your peoples lives. An aircraft carrier doesn't generate economic returns, while a new train line does.
The USSR didn't put enough attention to improving the lives of its citizens (mainly because of the belligerent threat of the US) and people became disillusioned into thinking the grass was greener on the other side (it wasn't, unless you like being a serf working to enrich a selfish ruling class of elitist c_nts).
USSR didn't tank because they were investing in nuclear deterrent (it was one thing they were mostly smart about) they tanked because they were wasting money and resources on overbloathed and redundant conventional military
They already had nukes but they still wasted money on huge pointless conventional force that they would never get to use because whole thing would have gone nuclear anyway
They should have just put nuclear component on 24/7 hair trigger alert, make sure other side knows the score, disband everything but basic conventional units and redirect the money into economy
But they didn't do that because they had idiotic irrational fear of nuclear war while Americans were never afraid to press the red button on moment's notice, better dead than red and it paid off big time
Instead of accepting reality and focusing on welfare of their people they were just coward pussies who thought that some tanks would stop the inevitable
They should have put responsibility for Armageddon on other side and moved on with their lives, instead they telegraphed their weakness and were called on their bluff
Nuclear submarines are part of naval component that keeps you safe not some overpriced bathtubs that do nothing of relevance and are just sending message that you don't plan on pulling the trigger when it matters
Singular_Transform- Posts : 1032
Points : 1014
Join date : 2016-11-13
[quote="PapaDragon"]
And then what's about USA?
They spent 7-10% of GDP for military back then, for conventional military mainly.
Big_Gazza wrote:kvs wrote:
The often cited "fact" that the USSR "bankrupted" itself with military spending is a western myth. Capitalist economy metrics are used to evaluate a command economy
with the predictable BS conclusions. The USSR could allocated any amount of resources to any set of tasks without any price costs.
And then what's about USA?
They spent 7-10% of GDP for military back then, for conventional military mainly.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13467
Points : 13507
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Singular_Transform wrote:PapaDragon wrote:Big_Gazza wrote:kvs wrote:
The often cited "fact" that the USSR "bankrupted" itself with military spending is a western myth. Capitalist economy metrics are used to evaluate a command economy
with the predictable BS conclusions. The USSR could allocated any amount of resources to any set of tasks without any price costs.
And then what's about USA?
They spent 7-10% of GDP for military back then, for conventional military mainly.
What about it?
The moment they try to use it is the moment world ends. Simple as that.
If they want everything to go up in flames that would have been out of USSR's hands (and it was)
Live your life and let fate decide, same thing I would advise current Russia.