Isos wrote:You are wrong. US ships would be at total disadvantage against China in south China sea. They have to keep more than half of their subs for China.
Russia isn't at disadvantage in terms of number since they also have SSKs. US has only 50 or so subs.
Russian subs won't fight in the atlantic anyway. Maybe when they will get 50 SSN and a decent number of carrier for air support, but not before.
This has nothing to do with coastal defence and all with big power competition in the world ocean, Russia does not need Tsirkon armed SSNs to defend their territory. They are repeating that they will use those to retaliate against US proper if they cross the line and that they will ask the navy to increase their role in face of the current hostile environment, plus are doing everything they can to develop their blue fleet navy.
LMFS wrote:...plus are doing everything they can to develop their blue fleet navy.
I'd have to dispute that. They are building a fleet to defend home waters and to perform A2AD to prevent the USN from being able to operate carrier and amphibious forces in their near abroad. The ships they are currently building lack endurance for open ocean power projection. Their naval doctrine will remain defensive and require surface naval assets to operate within range of land based support such as air superiority, long range strike and surveillance.
If the Murkans are stupid enough to want a piece of the Russian Navy they will need to come within range of the Bears claws. IMHO the Russian ability to escalate within their own space is greater than Murkan power projection abilities, especially after the Ruskies demonstrate their firepower by scratching a flat-top or two.
LMFS wrote: This has nothing to do with coastal defence and all with big power competition in the world ocean, Russia does not need Tsirkon armed SSNs to defend their territory. They are repeating that they will use those to retaliate against US proper if they cross the line and that they will ask the navy to increase their role in face of the current hostile environment, plus are doing everything they can to develop their blue fleet navy.
Isos point is, that when the Russians can cover its territorial waters using diesel subs with high confidence, USN will need to dispatch own nuclear subs to do just same - they have no other option. As they operate 50 subs, that means only a dozen can perform ocean based tasks at each theatre. They are on equal with Russia, and heavily outnumbered by the Chinese.
I think I see what you mean LMFS but I wonder if kindzhal equipped mig-31k aircraft stationed in important trade centers in the Americas wouldnt be a wiser course. I fear zirkon getting into US hands more than kindzhal. I also think aircraft could be defended better than subs stationed close to America
also think aircraft could be defended better than subs stationed close to America LIKE wrote:
I think the submarine is much better. He can patrol himself for a long time in an area of 500 km off the coast of the USA. A 3-knot speed patrol will be very difficult to detect.
I have been following this deepstorm.ru page for years and when that page announces that a submarine has been withdrawn from use - then so be it. K-391 Bratsk is dead. I think that this is the last 971 submarine (Bratsk) that the Russians destroyed by its own mistake, like the K-322 Kashalot and K-263 Barnaul submarines, which were not overhauled in time. And now 10 of those have left including K-152 Nerpa. Pacific fleet; 1. K-331 NO NAME because "Magadan" name was given to B-602 diesel-electric submarine (PF); repair and slight modernization at Zvezda shipyard to 971U standard, the delivery deadline is 2023. 2. K-419 Kuzbas (PF); upgraded and modernized at Zvezda to 971U standard. Returned to service 16.03.2016. 3. K-295 Samara (PF); in overhaul and modernization on 971M standard at Zvezdochka. 4. K-152 Nerpa; status unknown. It was handed over by the Indian crew to the crew of the K-419 Kuzbas submarine. Some sources mention that after the modernization, it could be handed over to the Pacific Fleet.
Northern fleet (much better situation); 1. K-317 Pantera; active, 2. K-461 Volk; to be upgraded and modernized on 971M standard at Zvezdochka. the delivery deadline is 2023. 3. K-328 Leopard; was launched after an upgrade to the 971M Standard at Zvezdochka. Waiting for sea trials. Delivery; 2022. 4. K-154 Tigr; in overhaul at Nerpa from 2019. the delivery deadline is 2023. It is very likely that the submarine will not be upgraded to the 971M standard, but I doubt very much that some essential equipment will not be upgraded. 5. K-157 Vepr; overhauled at Zvedozchka. Project 971U. Returned to service in may 2020, active. 6. K-335 Gepard; project 971U, active.
Big_Gazza wrote:I'd have to dispute that. They are building a fleet to defend home waters and to perform A2AD to prevent the USN from being able to operate carrier and amphibious forces in their near abroad.
They don't even need the Gorshkovs for that, I guarantee you the USN is not planning to operate carriers and LHAs in Russian waters. Their life expectancy would be the brief minutes a MiG-31K gets into launch position or a coastal battery with Tsirkon gets activated.
Very clearly they have brown, green and blue water ships and once their coast is safe and the naval industry restarted, they are both building each time bigger oceanic vessels and modernizing the existing ones.
The ships they are currently building lack endurance for open ocean power projection.
Hence why they design the 22350M, modernize the Udaloys, discuss the Lider, upgrade the Nakhimov etc. Such vessels are totally unnecessary for coastal defence, but badly needed to have the endurance, sea keeping and combat capacity needed to be deployed far from the mainland.
Their naval doctrine will remain defensive and require surface naval assets to operate within range of land based support such as air superiority, long range strike and surveillance.
That is not actually correct... you can read their actual doctrine as in strategic plan to 2050 and naval development roadmap to 2030. Defence of the Russian interests in the world ocean is an explicit, high priority goal of the VMF.
If the Murkans are stupid enough to want a piece of the Russian Navy they will need to come within range of the Bears claws. IMHO the Russian ability to escalate within their own space is greater than Murkan power projection abilities, especially after the Ruskies demonstrate their firepower by scratching a flat-top or two.
Projecting naval power vs. Russian mainland does not count as an option even for the most delusional American planer, I tell you...
ALAMO wrote:Isos point is, that when the Russians can cover its territorial waters using diesel subs with high confidence, USN will need to dispatch own nuclear subs to do just same - they have no other option. As they operate 50 subs, that means only a dozen can perform ocean based tasks at each theatre. They are on equal with Russia, and heavily outnumbered by the Chinese.
You have a point, but what Isos said was not that USN is going to be busy with Russian and Chinese subs close to CONUS, but that both Russia and China have the assets needed to defend their coast from US, which is obvious. I agree that USN has developed themselves with such a feeling of self security and with such focus on power projection, that they do not even have the SSKs which are obviously the right tool for defensive purposes. That is why having many Tsirkon armed SSNs and deploying them close to CONUS is a great way to tie up US forces that would otherwise be available for offensive roles far from their territory. Russian military does know how to make plans indeed...
TMA1 wrote: I think I see what you mean LMFS but I wonder if kindzhal equipped mig-31k aircraft stationed in important trade centers in the Americas wouldnt be a wiser course. I fear zirkon getting into US hands more than kindzhal. I also think aircraft could be defended better than subs stationed close to America
An air base is an option, but it is much more expensive, depends on the political climate at the other side of the world and is a fixed location that needs to be resupplied, maintained, protected from attack, sabotage, infiltration etc. A sub in the middle of the ocean on the other hand does not need permission from anyone, buy loyalty from anyone or to strain relationships with your allies to come and go as you please, all while having the surprise factor of not having a known position and therefore complicating a lot the setup of the AD or ASW forces needed to counter its presence, which will badly strain the US military budget. It is much easier and achieves as much or even more, hence a better solution overall, at least for the time being. When Russia's clout and economy grows, some air bases here and there will make sense indeed.
See, a guy that really knows his thing (General Kartapolov) stating a much around minute 4:
Surrogat was meant to be a training target. It can mimic the sound of larger subs. In this case it seems to act like a double for the big one, deceiving enemy SSN´s.
edit: Oh no!!! I've linked to a "Russia state-affilated media site"!! Shocked Whatever should I do????
Suspect
Idiots..
Tell them site admin is a Kiwi with no links at all to Russia... except admiration... AFAIK no Russian members in my family at all, no Russian neighbours or work colleagues either.
This might be a pea shooter for pea eights!?
I noticed that too... interesting that it seems to be in a SLBM missile launch tube... which means it should be able to be fitted to any Russian SSBN.
When I first saw it I thought it might be a radar antenna, but look more at it it looks like a MANPADS or perhaps ATGM launcher... perhaps Hermes or something... the launch tube on the top rotates to vertical and lowers and a rotary stack of say 12 stored vertically in the tube one is raised and connects to the launcher which then extends up clear of the launch tube and rotates back 90 degrees to horizontal for aiming and launch... when the missile is fired the tube is rotated 90 degrees down to parallel with the mast it is on and the empty tube is lowered into the empty space in the rotary magazine. Sensors and optics are mounted on the mast and perhaps periscopes for both passive and active scanning for surface and air targets...
A fun fact. This new sub concept was already shared by the Google news chart, but under a subject : another Russian shell project. Again, there is no point in informing about anything, but to put as much shit on Russkies as possible. It doesn't matter, that at the moment they have a missile carrier fleet of the latest generation on the planet, enjoying a 15 years advance. It does not matter, that they have a 40! years of advance in the missiles on board. It does not matter, that they have the latest multipurpose subs, again well ahead of the competitors, in serial production. They will be probably ready with the next! gen before the competitors will even be able to hold their guts tight. And the only competitor last, is the US, as both France and the UK do not count in this business anymore. It does not matter, that they have the conventional sub production program at a full swing, producing two types of boats, each of them holding a world's standard in the matter. Nothing matters, other than propaganda.
flamming_python, Hole, owais.usmani, Mir and Broski like this post
When I first saw it I thought it might be a radar antenna, but look more at it it looks like a MANPADS or perhaps ATGM launcher... perhaps Hermes or something...
If you put the scale of this sub into perspective the size of that pea shooter is more like a S-350/400. Most - if not all Russian subs do have some MANPADS on board as well.
IMO it's to show that it will be a modular sub and you can fit 3rd party system into one silo. Weapons, research tools, detection tools... plug and play stuff to increase possible solutions.
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