Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Podlodka77 wrote:
Amur, why ? There is no need for that. Sevmash is not the problem but maybe money is.
Its hard to believe but older russian submarines are longer in modernization than new submarines spend in construction.
Russian Navy commissioned nuclear submarines in 2022: 3 885 and 885M, 2 945A, 2 671 RTM(K), 7 949A, 10 971 = 24. Only 2 of those of the project 971 (Gepard and Nerpa) could survive until 2040 and maybe those titanium 945A submarines. Everything else will be 45+ years old.
If Russia continues like this than RN will have as much multipurpose submarines as France and UK combined and thats not enough. They need to start with the construction of more and more 885M submarines or 545A,  or whatever submarines that will replace those 971 submarines in the next decade. And there will be a few more submarines of the 09851 (2 or 3 subs in 2030) project and thats all.

As I wrote, the problem is not Sevmash, the problem is whether there is money for all that and whether there will be money in the near future. why do i mention money ? I just can not believe that 10+ years are needed for the K-328 Leopard modernization. So whats the problem, incompetent repair plant or money or both of those things together ? How is it possible to build a submarine sooner at Sevmash than to finish modernization of the Leopard submarine? I have only one explanation; priority list of the russian MOD.
1. Borei; 5 submarines have already been put into service, 4 more are under construction and one has been launched; 5 + 4 + 1 = 10. Also, two more are to be laid down next year and that already 12
2. Yasen? Just 8 submarines because there is also 09851 project or Habarovsk class. And that Habarovsk class will "eat" some portion of those 885M subs. I would rather see 12 885M and 8 Borei than opposite. So in 2030 we will have just 8 885/885M submarines and 2 or 3 09851 submarines if something doesn't change in the meantime.
MORE YASEN or 545A or whatever class of true multipurpose submarines and less novelty like 09851, thats all..

LMFS wrote:

Podlodka77 wrote:
Amur, why ? There is no need for that. Sevmash is not the problem but maybe money is.
Its hard to believe but older russian submarines are longer in modernization than new submarines spend in construction.
Russian Navy commissioned nuclear submarines in 2022: 3 885 and 885M, 2 945A, 2 671 RTM(K), 7 949A, 10 971 = 24. Only 2 of those of the project 971 (Gepard and Nerpa) could survive until 2040 and maybe those titanium 945A submarines. Everything else will be 45+ years old.
If Russia continues like this than RN will have as much multipurpose submarines as France and UK combined and thats not enough. They need to start with the construction of more and more 885M submarines or 545A,  or whatever submarines that will replace those 971 submarines in the next decade. And there will be a few more submarines of the 09851 (2 or 3 subs in 2030) project and thats all.

As I wrote, the problem is not Sevmash, the problem is whether there is money for all that and whether there will be money in the near future. why do i mention money ? I just can not believe that 10+ years are needed for the K-328 Leopard modernization. So whats the problem, incompetent repair plant or money or both of those things together ? How is it possible to build a submarine sooner at Sevmash than to finish modernization of the Leopard submarine? I have only one explanation; priority list of the russian MOD.
1. Borei; 5 submarines have already been put into service, 4 more are under construction and one has been launched; 5 + 4 + 1 = 10. Also, two more are to be laid down next year and that already 12
2. Yasen? Just 8 submarines because there is also 09851 project or Habarovsk class. And that Habarovsk class will "eat" some portion of those 885M subs. I would rather see 12 885M and 8 Borei than opposite. So in 2030 we will have just 8 885/885M submarines and 2 or 3 09851 submarines if something doesn't change in the meantime.
MORE YASEN or 545A or whatever class of true multipurpose submarines and less novelty like 09851, thats all..

You are making my case better than I would do. A second shipyard is needed precisely because there are few SS(G)N in the Russian navy and Sevmash, despite their top performance, has their hands more than full already. Besides, you cannot risk that a fire or anything happens at Sevmash that leaves you totally screwed.

Also you cannot wait a decade for getting beyond a clearly insufficient amount of hulls, hence why you need to modernize older, still sufficiently capable designs as the 971s are. Even worse, if you do not maintain them you will decommission them at the same rough speed (or even more) than you build Yasens, shooting yourself in the feet real bad.

As to the time needed for the repairs, there are certainly industrial capability issues involved, but also probably decisions that were delayed at the VMF command. In the latest years, coinciding with the testes of the Tsirkon, there has been a significant increase in the repair activity and most of the available 971 units are expected to be returned to the fleet within a couple of years. When they see the need of increasing the numbers (maybe to provide cover for Tsirkon carriers and spread the USN sub fleet thinner) they have directed the money and resources and it seems results are coming.

Podlodka77 wrote:
13 submarines are under construction in Sevmash, while three of those numbers have already been launched and those are; G. Suvorov (955A), K-571 Krasnoyarsk (885M) and K-329 Belgorod (09852)..

10 subs are under construction indoors,
1. 955A Borei-A; Imperator Alexandr III, Pozharskiy, Knyaz Potemkin and Dmitri Donskoy. 4 submarines in total..
2. 885M Yasen-M; Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk (if it belong to the 885M), Voronezh, Vladivostok. 5 subs in total..
3. 09851; Habarovsk...1 submarine...
That means 4 + 5 + 1 = 10. But 3 more subs could be launched this year; Imperator Alexandr III (955A), K-564 Arkhangelsk (885M) and Habarovsk of the project 09851. Sou you have a lot of space for new keels because there will be only 7 submarines left in the factory buildings, but next year the laying of keels for two new submarines of the 955A project will begin..


Launched in 2022; Imperator Alexandr III (955A), K-564 Arkhangelsk (885M) and Habarovsk of the project 09851.
Launched in 2023; Knyaz Pozharskiy (955A), Perm (885M) and maybe even Ulyanovsk will be launched next year. 5 to 6 submarines should be launched in the next twoo years.
You only have 4 submarines under construction whose construction will take a few more years and they are; Potemkin, Donskoy, Vladivostok and Voronezh. All the others are nearing the end of construction. Add to that two Borei submarines from next year. This means that in 2024 there will be only 6 submarines within the factory walls under construction and that leaves space for additional multipurpose subs.

Mir wrote:The Russians have now fully developed this new 3D design technology for their sub construction. There will be no point in using it for an old design like the 885's unless they want to do upgrades on it. This tech is primarily designed with the new gen subs in mind.

LMFS wrote:

Podlodka77 wrote:
13 submarines are under construction in Sevmash, while three of those numbers have already been launched and those are; G. Suvorov (955A), K-571 Krasnoyarsk (885M) and K-329 Belgorod (09852)..

10 subs are under construction indoors,
1. 955A Borei-A; Imperator Alexandr III, Pozharskiy, Knyaz Potemkin and Dmitri Donskoy. 4 submarines in total..
2. 885M Yasen-M; Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk (if it belong to the 885M), Voronezh, Vladivostok. 5 subs in total..
3. 09851; Habarovsk...1 submarine...
That means 4 + 5 + 1 = 10. But 3 more subs could be launched this year; Imperator Alexandr III (955A), K-564 Arkhangelsk (885M) and Habarovsk of the project 09851. Sou you have a lot of space for new keels because there will be only 7 submarines left in the factory buildings, but next year the laying of keels for two new submarines of the 955A project will begin..


Launched in 2022; Imperator Alexandr III (955A), K-564 Arkhangelsk (885M) and Habarovsk of the project 09851.
Launched in 2023; Knyaz Pozharskiy (955A), Perm (885M) and maybe even Ulyanovsk will be launched next year. 5 to 6 submarines should be launched in the next twoo years.
You only have 4 submarines under construction whose construction will take a few more years and they are; Potemkin, Donskoy, Vladivostok and Voronezh. All the others are nearing the end of construction. Add to that two Borei submarines from next year. This means that in 2024 there will be only 6 submarines within the factory walls under construction and that leaves space for additional multipurpose subs.

Yes, of course, they should keep up the good job. That does not prevent that the average speed of construction and numbers expected by end of the decade are clearly insufficient. You would finish this decade with less SSNs in the fleet that you started it, unless you modernize the 971 and the 949. And from then onwards you need to build even more, to increase a way too small fleet and to do it while compensating for the units that are not worth modernizing anymore and need to be retired. You need to consider that, disregarding other NATO and potential adversary fleets, VMF needs to tackle the 50 (and counting) SSNs of the USN, this is not a small job and demands to at least double the amount of SSNs asap. When USSR had two shipyards for nuclear subs, it was for a good reason.

Arrow wrote:The US seems to have already started building Columbia.  So far, there is no information or even indications that Russia should start building nuclear submarines in other shipyards.  Sevmash remains.  The construction of almost 13 nuclear submarines is very impressive

but the Russians made a perhaps wrong decision earlier to exclude Krasnoye Sormovo

Big_Gazza wrote:IMHO the Husky/Laika (or whatever next gen design is settled upon) will be built as they will represent the next generation of sub tech.  As awesome as the 855Ms are (every bit as capable as USN Seawolf or Virginias, and more so in many ways) they still represent late 80s/90 concepts.  855Ms are based on K-560 Severodvinsk (laid down in 1993) with a design refresh and newer systems, while the 545 is expected to pioneer new technologies such much improved silencing techniques and the use of composites for (outer) hull, control surfaces, screws etc. Maybe reactor improvements and automation advances?

Russia has an absolute ripper of an SSGN in the Yasen class, with weapons to match, and I think they need a minimum of 12 units (6 North, 6 Pacific), but the Black Enemy in Mordor isn't resting and he is utterly unhinged. It makes no sense to rest on your laurels and omit to make plans for the next generation.

All newly built Russian and US submarines are SSGN in fact

Big_Gazza wrote:IMHO the Husky/Laika (or whatever next gen design is settled upon) will be built as they will represent the next generation of sub tech.  As awesome as the 855Ms are (every bit as capable as USN Seawolf or Virginias, and more so in many ways) they still represent late 80s/90 concepts.  855Ms are based on K-560 Severodvinsk (laid down in 1993) with a design refresh and newer systems, while the 545 is expected to pioneer new technologies such much improved silencing techniques and the use of composites for (outer) hull, control surfaces, screws etc. Maybe reactor improvements and automation advances?

Russia has an absolute ripper of an SSGN in the Yasen class, with weapons to match, and I think they need a minimum of 12 units (6 North, 6 Pacific), but the Black Enemy in Mordor isn't resting and he is utterly unhinged. It makes no sense to rest on your laurels and omit to make plans for the next generation.

Podlodka77 wrote:All newly built Russian and US submarines are SSGN in fact, because Virginia also has VLS. But yes, the production of 885M submarines still has to continue, but the construction of a new project has to start also. And I wrote that it is necessary to build at least 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project, while other new submarines could be of lower displacement but not with less firepower than the Virginia class (Block 1 - Block 4). I don't think the Russians will go below 10,000 tons of full displacement, but only time will tell. The Russians did show a model of proposed 545A (11 340 tons full displacement), but I don't think the submarine shown at exhibit is what will actually be built.