Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

According to this source used for the wiki article of Borei :

https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/borei-class/

"The first in the class of the submarines is the Yury Dolgoruky vessel, which was built at a total cost of $713m, including a research and development expenditure of $280m."


And according to this source :

https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/1812512

"164 billion rubles - a contract with sk for the construction and supply of four nuclear submarines of project 885m "ash-m";

47 billion rubles - contract with JSC "Sevmash" for the construction of the lead boat "Kazan" project 8

39 billion rubles - additional agreement with the Central Design Bureau of MT "Rubin" for the design of a strategic nuclear submarine cruiser of project 955A "Borey";

13.4 billion rubles - a contract with the SPMBM "Malakhit" for the development of a technical project for the modernization of a submarine of project 885M;

11.5 billion rubles - a contract with the Admiralty shipyards for the construction of the rescue ship "Igor Belousov" (project 21300; originally planned to be built for 6 billion rubles);"

Those are 10 years ago values. So it doesn't make sense to use 2021's exchange rate to have a figure in USD.

47 billion rubles in 2011 was something like 1.6 billion dollars for the yasen.

Today it would be 600 million dollars.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Arrow wrote:I don't believe there is such a disproportion in cost between 955A and 885M.  

Agreed, its total nonsense.  23B (300M USD) for a Borei and 200B+ (2.6B USD) for a Yasen???  The usual suspects insist on lumping the total R&D costs and retooling by sub-suppliers into the cost of the lead boat. Its the 5th columnists standard practice to artificially inflate the cost and thereby sustain their attacks on the project, and its very disappointing to read fool journos repeating this seditious rubbish.

No usual suspects or 5th columnists or whatever other cope fanboys go for, that's how Russian MoD calculates costs

All development costs are assigned to lead vessel plus construction cost of it

If you want to know price per regular ship you need to look at first SERIAL ship AKA the second one in class

@Podlodka77

Bratsk seems indeed slated for scrapping, while Samara should return to service in 2023, from the article above.

Was there any discussion about producing SSNs again at Amur shipyard? That would definitely help with the schedule

LMFS wrote:@Podlodka77

Bratsk seems indeed slated for scrapping, while Samara should return to service in 2023, from the article above.

Was there any discussion about producing SSNs again at Amur shipyard? That would definitely help with the schedule

Amur, why ? There is no need for that. Sevmash is not the problem but maybe money is.
Its hard to believe but older russian submarines are longer in modernization than new submarines spend in construction.
Russian Navy commissioned nuclear submarines in 2022: 3 885 and 885M, 2 945A, 2 671 RTM(K), 7 949A, 10 971 = 24. Only 2 of those of the project 971 (Gepard and Nerpa) could survive until 2040 and maybe those titanium 945A submarines. Everything else will be 45+ years old.
If Russia continues like this than RN will have as much multipurpose submarines as France and UK combined and thats not enough. They need to start with the construction of more and more 885M submarines or 545A,  or whatever submarines that will replace those 971 submarines in the next decade. And there will be a few more submarines of the 09851 (2 or 3 subs in 2030) project and thats all.

As I wrote, the problem is not Sevmash, the problem is whether there is money for all that and whether there will be money in the near future. why do i mention money ? I just can not believe that 10+ years are needed for the K-328 Leopard modernization. So whats the problem, incompetent repair plant or money or both of those things together ? How is it possible to build a submarine sooner at Sevmash than to finish modernization of the Leopard submarine? I have only one explanation; priority list of the russian MOD.
1. Borei; 5 submarines have already been put into service, 4 more are under construction and one has been launched; 5 + 4 + 1 = 10. Also, two more are to be laid down next year and that already 12
2. Yasen? Just 8 submarines because there is also 09851 project or Habarovsk class. And that Habarovsk class will "eat" some portion of those 885M subs. I would rather see 12 885M and 8 Borei than opposite. So in 2030 we will have just 8 885/885M submarines and 2 or 3 09851 submarines if something doesn't change in the meantime.
MORE YASEN or 545A or whatever class of true multipurpose submarines and less novelty like 09851, thats all..

Amur, why ? There is no need for that.

For starters a second line would obviously lead -at the very least - doubling up the production. That would be a great starting point for getting more subs in the fleet.
The other news is that four of those upgraded Pr.971's will get back in service over the next two years. Most of them will be back this year.
The process of modernizing will also benefit from the new 3D tech in future and likely to speed things up considerably.
The Khabarovsk class submarines was developed from the Boreys and very few will be built as they are highly specialized subs.
Khabarovsk is unlikely to eat into funding the Yasens as they are set at 8 units so money is already allocated - but there are plans to build a couple more.
In fact most of the Khabarovsk's have already been laid down - which also means that the money has already been allocated for the program.

Podlodka77 wrote:Amur, why ? There is no need for that. Sevmash is not the problem but maybe money is.
...
As I wrote, the problem is not Sevmash, the problem is whether there is money for all that and whether there will be money in the near future. why do i mention money ? I just can not believe that 10+ years are needed for the K-328 Leopard modernization. So whats the problem, incompetent repair plant or money or both of those things together ? How is it possible to build a submarine sooner at Sevmash than to finish modernization of the Leopard submarine? I have only one explanation; priority list of the russian MOD.
...
MORE YASEN or 545A or whatever class of true multipurpose submarines and less novelty like 09851, thats all..

My guess is Russian ship repair and refurbishment facilities are not up to par. You have to remember back in Soviet times the practice was to send military vehicles back to the factory for overhauls. This applied to basically everything. You still see this happening today with tanks for example. Having separate facilities which are up to date is a problem. The Russian state also seems to have subcontracted this work to private shipyards and we know how good those typically are. i.e. not really.

If you look at it all the SSBNs have been upgraded or refurbished at least once to fire the R-29RMU2 missile. The state's priority seems to be the renewal of the SSBN fleet and I think this is warranted. The Delta III and IV SSBNs use obsolete liquid fuel missiles and twin nuclear reactor power plant. They should also be much less quiet than the new submarines. The new submarines are a major improvement.

The Yasen only entered service much later than the original Borey. The 885M is even more recent than that. The older Shchuka submarines already had a unitary reactor power plant. Only the Victor III still uses the twin nuclear reactor power plant. Not that many Victor III in service. I think the priority will be to replace the Victor III and since production of new units will take a while they will refurbish some of the Shchuka to fill the gap much like they did with the Delta IV in the SSBN fleet. The problem is not all of these submarines were built to the same standard and given the large gap between the time these submarines were built and today lots of problems are likely happening. Part suppliers no longer exist, knowledge of the layout of the submarine is probably lacking, and each production run and factory might have differences in build. These should complicate the refurbishment process a lot.

I would focus on building new Yasen ships of 885M instead of upgrades even if this results in a smaller fleet for some time. There is a vast capability gap between the Yasen and earlier submarines in particular in terms of long range weapons and sensors.

lancelot wrote:

Podlodka77 wrote:Amur, why ? There is no need for that. Sevmash is not the problem but maybe money is.
...
As I wrote, the problem is not Sevmash, the problem is whether there is money for all that and whether there will be money in the near future. why do i mention money ? I just can not believe that 10+ years are needed for the K-328 Leopard modernization. So whats the problem, incompetent repair plant or money or both of those things together ? How is it possible to build a submarine sooner at Sevmash than to finish modernization of the Leopard submarine? I have only one explanation; priority list of the russian MOD.
...
MORE YASEN or 545A or whatever class of true multipurpose submarines and less novelty like 09851, thats all..

My guess is Russian ship repair and refurbishment facilities are not up to par. You have to remember back in Soviet times the practice was to send military vehicles back to the factory for overhauls. This applied to basically everything. You still see this happening today with tanks for example. Having separate facilities which are up to date is a problem. The Russian state also seems to have subcontracted this work to private shipyards and we know how good those typically are. i.e. not really.

If you look at it all the SSBNs have been upgraded or refurbished at least once to fire the R-29RMU2 missile. The state's priority seems to be the renewal of the SSBN fleet and I think this is warranted. The Delta III and IV SSBNs use obsolete liquid fuel missiles and twin nuclear reactor power plant. They should also be much less quiet than the new submarines. The new submarines are a major improvement.

The Yasen only entered service much later than the original Borey. The 885M is even more recent than that. The older Shchuka submarines already had a unitary reactor power plant. Only the Victor III still uses the twin nuclear reactor power plant. Not that many Victor III in service. I think the priority will be to replace the Victor III and since production of new units will take a while they will refurbish some of the Shchuka to fill the gap much like they did with the Delta IV in the SSBN fleet. The problem is not all of these submarines were built to the same standard and given the large gap between the time these submarines were built and today lots of problems are likely happening. Part suppliers no longer exist, knowledge of the layout of the submarine is probably lacking, and each production run and factory might have differences in build. These should complicate the refurbishment process a lot.

I would focus on building new Yasen ships of 885M instead of upgrades even if this results in a smaller fleet for some time. There is a vast capability gap between the Yasen and earlier submarines in particular in terms of long range weapons and sensors.

I agree with you completely, because they only need to build new submarines and that's it. Its a lot better to not spend the money on 30+ years Irkutsk and Chelyabinsk and its better to built new subs. Those older submarines only needed to be repaired and thus their service life would be extended. I would go on with the modernization of only Gepard, Nerpa, Pskov and Nizhny Novgorod. The last twoo are titanium hulled submarines.
It is possible that in previous years they went to modernize the 971 and 949A projects because the construction of the 885M project was slow then, but now Sevmash is building those submarines like mushrooms and it is time to think only about new submarines.
24 multipurpose submarines are listed as commissioned in RN but no more than 13 ro 14 is in service at any given time. Yes, some of those 971 submarines will be back in service but its time to laid down a lote more keels for new multipurpose submarines.
NOTHING is so important for RN as multipurpose submarines.

Mir wrote:

Amur, why ? There is no need for that.

For starters a second line would obviously lead -at the very least - doubling up the production. That would be a great starting point for getting more subs in the fleet.
The other news is that four of those upgraded Pr.971's will get back in service over the next two years. Most of them will be back this year.
The process of modernizing will also benefit from the new 3D tech in future and likely to speed things up considerably.
The Khabarovsk class submarines was developed from the Boreys and very few will be built as they are highly specialized subs.
Khabarovsk is unlikely to eat into funding the Yasens as they are set at 8 units so money is already allocated - but there are plans to build a couple more.
In fact most of the Khabarovsk's have already been laid down - which also means that the money has already been allocated for the program.

New class of multi-purpose submarines will come, or those of proposed 545A submarines, but maybe with a little less displacement than the 885M project.
I think the problem is that there are not enough submarines of the 885M project under construction right now, although it is increasingly clear that Sevmash already has at least 2 submarines of the 09851 Khabarovsk project under construction. Poseidon is a big deal for Russian Navy so we have at least Habarovsk and Ulyanovsk in construction.
And for 971 project; i dont think so and most of those submarines will come back to service 1 or 2 years later than it was originaly stated.

Ulyanovsk is Yasen-class

545A was supposed to be alternative to Yasen that would be built faster​ but there's no need for them anymore because Yasens ae being built at very fast rate now

PapaDragon wrote:
Ulyanovsk is Yasen-class

545A was supposed to be alternative to Yasen that would be built faster​ but there's no need for them anymore because Yasens ae being built at very fast rate now

We will see at the end to which class the Ulyanovsk submarine belongs, I will classify it in 09851/09853 project. I am not saying that it is 100% true, but the Russian Ministry of Defense did not deny the writing of the TASS journalist. And its obvious that Poseidon is very important to RN.
The text says that the keel was laid down in 2017, when the keel was indeed laid down for Ulyanovsk, and that the submarine will be handed over to the Russian Navy by 2027 as submarine of the 09853 project.
* Khabarovsk; Pacific fleet,
* Ulyanovsk; NF.

I am not so sure that all russian multipurpose submarines in the future will be only those of the 885M project. Maybe they will built some new class of submarines with a full displacement that is slightly less than the 885M project.

I think it is enough to build 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project and than to build the other 12 with a slightly smaller displacement - which would correspond in dimensions to the 971 project. Instead of 8 launch silos (as in the 885M project) with 4 missiles per silo, it may be enough for these new submarines to have 6 and therefore construction would be faster. Even if they had 4 silos on each of the submarines, those submarines would still have greater strike power than the American Virginia's except of those which belong to Block 5 variant of Virginia's.
The torpedo section will still hold no less than 24 to 30 torpedoes. And in the end, it is not impossible to build a bigger missile silo, that is, to have fewer silos on the submarine, but packed with more missiles.
Even with 4 silos and 4 or 5 missile per silo and 24 torpedoes in torpedo section a full combat arsenal would be 40 to 44 missiles and torpedoes.
Virginia class variants from Block 1 to Block 4 have only have 37 torpedoes and missiles in total.

Podlodka77 wrote:We will see at the end to which class the Ulyanovsk submarine belongs...

We already saw it (literally)

Navy clearly stated that it's Yasen and photographs of the hull confirm it

Podlodka77 wrote:but the Russian Ministry of Defense did not deny the writing of the TASS journalist...

That's because they don't give a single shit about what some random retard from TASS wrote

Podlodka77 wrote:I think it is enough to build 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project and than to build the other 12 with a slightly smaller displacement...

12 Yasens is not enough which is why they will build more

The need for anything other than Yasen disappeared the moment production pace of Yasens was brought up to speed

PapaDragon wrote:

Podlodka77 wrote:We will see at the end to which class the Ulyanovsk submarine belongs...

We already saw it (literally)

Navy clearly stated that it's Yasen and photographs of the hull confirm it

Podlodka77 wrote:but the Russian Ministry of Defense did not deny the writing of the TASS journalist...

That's because they don't give a single shit about what some random retard from TASS wrote

Podlodka77 wrote:I think it is enough to build 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project and than to build the other 12 with a slightly smaller displacement...

12 Yasens is not enough which is why they will build more

The need for anything other than Yasen disappeared the moment production pace of Yasens was brought up to speed

OK, there is no point in writing further about the Ulyanovsk submarine. It will be whatever it is but i disagree about 885M project because there is NOT ENOUGH of those submarines in construction - not at all.
I didn't mean that 12 multipurpose nuclear submarines in total is sufficient number for the entire RN, but 10 to 12 submarines of the 885M project and another 12 to 14 submarines of lower displacement. No less than 24 multipurpose submarines in total. Even the oldest one or K-560 Severodvinsk could serve until at least 2050-2053 or 2060 for K-561 Kazan and K-573 Novosibirsk.

I agress with HI Sutton and what he wrote, i quote him; " The type follows on from the Pr.885/885M Severodvinsk-class cruise missile submarines (SSGN). But it is not a straightforward successor. Instead, it is the cheaper little brother, intended as a replacement for existing attack submarines. As the Severodvinsk-class (also known as Yasen-class) replaces the Oscar-II (949A Antey) SSGNs, Laika (545A) will replace the Akula (project 971) and Sierra (project 945 Barakuda and 945A Kondor) classes. But we should expect fewer silos, possibly just four. This would give a VLS load of up to 16 missiles.
Arguably the VLS will make the Laika an SSGN design. The same could be said of the US Navy’s Virginia-class. But following the logic that Laika will replace SSNs more or less 1:1, while the Severodvinsk-class is replacing the Oscar-IIs, the “SSN” label is likely to stick. And with it the doctrine of SSN usage in the Russian Navy".

Something like this, yes, but with torpedo room/section below the conning tower and conformal array sonar in the front. There is no need to built 24 submarines of the 885M project.
Except for K-335 Gepard and K-152 Nerpa submarines all other submarines of the 971 project are over 26 years in active service. Even K-157 Vepr and K-295 Samara submarines will have 35 years of active service in 2030, so the number of 885M submarines under construction is very small. I don't see any purpose for the submarines of this 971 project to be in use for over 40 years (upper limit), nor do I think that would be a smart decision.

There will be 2 more Borej class subs laid down and that´s it (for a few years at least). That side of the construction building will be free, the other will be used for more Yassen´s. There is space to build 2 - 3 Laikas for every Borej. Do the math yourself. This class can be build up very fast. Well, after the long testing phase for the first one, of course.

Hole wrote:There will be 2 more Borej class subs laid down and that´s it (for a few years at least). That side of the construction building will be free, the other will be used for more Yassen´s. There is space to build 2 - 3 Laikas for every Borej. Do the math yourself.  This class can be build up very fast. Well, after the long testing phase for the first one, of course.

* 545A; You see, i am not the only one who thinks that new class of multipurpose submarines will appear in the near future. I am of the opinion that this new submarine project will be in construction before 2025. It will be great if the first submarine of that project is handed over to the fleet before 2030. In any case, the construction would be even faster than for the 885M project. But i agree, testing phase will last for some time but not as long as for 885 Severodvinsk submarine. We could see that the 885M project submarines were significantly shorter in tests and sea trials than K-560 Severodvinsk of the original 885 project. After all, most of the equipment from the 885M submarine will only be transferred to a new project but modernized.

* 885M; Additional submarines will be constructed i hope so. Кeels for the last 2 subs were laid down in 2020 (not included in the list below). I have some thought that maybe they could start building two new submarines this year, although there is no announcement of a new contract for additional submarines of this project. We only know that Borisov said that the construction of these submarines "will continue" and thats all. There will be a free space here also because Arkhangelsk will be launched this year (probably) and Perm in the next year.

* 955A; And I think that a lot of space in Sevmash will be freed up after the eighth Pozharskiy submarine is launched (seventh submarine Imperator Alexandr the 3th will be launched this year probably), only if they decide not to built TWOO more 955A submarines, or 13th and 14th, because some of the first 955 submarines could become special mission submarines like BS-136 Orenburg and BS-64 Podmoskovye. After Pozharskiy only four 955A submarines will be in construction; Knyaz Potemkin and Dmitri Donskoy and two new ones.

Below every year you can see the total number of submarines in construction and in slipyard; for example 14/12 = 14 in construction and 12 of that number under construction indoors - which means that 2 submarines are already launched.
This list is from 2018 and its just a prediction, nothing else, but its not far from the truth. He predicted 11/8 for 2022 in 2018 when this list was created, but some of submarines from the list were not delivered to the Navy.

In 2022; (13/10); 13 submarines in construction in total and 10 of those are construction indoors ;
* 955A; Suvorov, Alexandr III, Pozharskiy, Potemkin, Donskoy
* 855A; Krasnoyarsk, Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk (if it belongs to 885M), Voronezh and Vladivostok,
* 09851; Habarovsk,
* 09852; Belgorod.
* LAUNCHED; Suvorov, Krasnoyarsk, Belgorod.

That article from HI Sutton is ancient and so is that table you posted (2018)

Production of Yasens is now up to speed hence Husky has been shelved since there's no more need for them

Why would Russian Navy give up superior platform which is being built fast for inferior one which will inevitably suffer development and construction delays?

They already said that Yasen construction will be extended

Hole wrote:There will be 2 more Borej class subs laid down and that´s it (for a few years at least). That side of the construction building will be free, the other will be used for more Yassen´s. There is space to build 2 - 3 Laikas for every Borej. Do the math yourself.  This class can be build up very fast. Well, after the long testing phase for the first one, of course.

There are actually two boat houses for construction so they can probably produce even more?



@Podlodka7
Papa_Dragon is right about the Ulyanovsk. It has been laid down in 2017 already so the name is out there on a brass plate and is sited as such by many sources.

Mir wrote:

Hole wrote:There will be 2 more Borej class subs laid down and that´s it (for a few years at least). That side of the construction building will be free, the other will be used for more Yassen´s. There is space to build 2 - 3 Laikas for every Borej. Do the math yourself.  This class can be build up very fast. Well, after the long testing phase for the first one, of course.

There are actually two boat houses for construction so they can probably produce even more?



@Podlodka7
Papa_Dragon is right about the Ulyanovsk. It has been laid down in 2017 already so the name is out there on a brass plate and is sited as such by many sources.

I hope he is right too, but the "worm of doubt" has been cast. That submarine on the picture is the K-335 Gepard.

Yes I know - great submarine!

I am just going to replace my last pic with one with more recent info.

PapaDragon wrote:
That article from HI Sutton is ancient and so is that table you posted (2018)

Production of Yasens is now up to speed hence Husky has been shelved since there's no more need for them

Why would Russian Navy give up superior platform which is being built fast for inferior one which will inevitably suffer development and construction delays?

They already said that Yasen construction will be extended

Husky/Laika was shown last year in the defence exhibition for the top brass in the MoD building, including Putin and Shoigu.

And it is needed, because numbers!

Construction wise the 885M nearly equals a 955A. But they won´t stop the production of them either. 885M and Laika will be build side by side. They could complement each other.

The 885M is like a Tu-22M3 or the new PAK-DA. The Laika will be like a Su-35. And the VKS doesn´t consist solely of medium-range missile carriers. Why should the Navy?

Hole wrote:Husky/Laika was shown last year in the defence exhibition for the top brass in the MoD building, including Putin and Shoigu....

Shitload of random stuff gets shown on defense exibitions all the time

It doesn't mean that it is getting made

Yasen is in production, Husky isn't

They announced more Yasens will get ordered, no Huskies are being planned

PapaDragon wrote:

Hole wrote:Husky/Laika was shown last year in the defence exhibition for the top brass in the MoD building, including Putin and Shoigu....

Shitload of random stuff gets shown on defense exibitions all the time

It doesn't mean that it is getting made

Yasen is in production, Husky isn't

They announced more Yasens will get ordered, no Huskies are being planned

Well if you ask me husky is more likely than was that Lider cruiser or Shtorm carrier.

They rely a lot on subs and Yasen isn't a replacement for Akulas which will need replacement one day or another. The upgrades gave them maybe 10-15 (20 at best years) but they won't be competitive for a long time. Nato are also building new subs and their new frigates are deadly in ASW specially french ones.

IMO they will very soon anounce and lay down the first Husky.

And by Husky I mean their new SSN with less VLS than Yasen and size 120m long. Not those fancy design from twitter or expos.

Moreover most of Yasens will be finished before 2030. So they will need to build something in those shipyards.