Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5

dino00 wrote:
The Su-57 fighter will receive an ultra-long-range air-to-air missile

The aircraft will carry an air-to-air missile R-37M of long range on an external suspension.

The fifth-generation fighter Su-57 (PAK FA) will receive the latest ultra-long-range R-37M missile. This was reported by Interfax with reference to Boris Obnosov, General Director of Tactical Missile Arms Corporation.

"Well, yes, of course, on the external suspension," said Obnosov.

The P-37M product is 4.06 meters long and weighs more than 500 kilograms. The maximum launch range is about 300 kilometers, the height of the targets being hit is from 15 meters to 25 kilometers.

More
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201809261047-6tvm.htm

LMFS wrote:

dino00 wrote:
The Su-57 fighter will receive an ultra-long-range air-to-air missile

The aircraft will carry an air-to-air missile R-37M of long range on an external suspension.

The fifth-generation fighter Su-57 (PAK FA) will receive the latest ultra-long-range R-37M missile. This was reported by Interfax with reference to Boris Obnosov, General Director of Tactical Missile Arms Corporation.

"Well, yes, of course, on the external suspension," said Obnosov.

The P-37M product is 4.06 meters long and weighs more than 500 kilograms. The maximum launch range is about 300 kilometers, the height of the targets being hit is from 15 meters to 25 kilometers.

More
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201809261047-6tvm.htm

That is disappointing, considering dimensions it would fit internally... I wonder what the reasons are

Unrealistically speaking, agree that it would be extremely cool on a legacy light single-engine plane. On a F-16 it would be insane, maybe they should buy some cheap airframes somewhere and make a Russian version (and of course sell it abroad cheaper than the US), now they are under all kinds of sanctions there is little revenge to fear

dino00 wrote:This is from UAC so official  right?




There are some mistake like export version missiles, maybe R-37M Will be esternal until izdeliye 810 which Will be internal

dino00 wrote:You can see from the post That idzleye 810 is meant to BE internal  and the wheigt is the same as R-37M

LMFS wrote:

dino00 wrote:
The Su-57 fighter will receive an ultra-long-range air-to-air missile

The aircraft will carry an air-to-air missile R-37M of long range on an external suspension.

The fifth-generation fighter Su-57 (PAK FA) will receive the latest ultra-long-range R-37M missile. This was reported by Interfax with reference to Boris Obnosov, General Director of Tactical Missile Arms Corporation.

"Well, yes, of course, on the external suspension," said Obnosov.

The P-37M product is 4.06 meters long and weighs more than 500 kilograms. The maximum launch range is about 300 kilometers, the height of the targets being hit is from 15 meters to 25 kilometers.

More

That is disappointing, considering dimensions it would fit internally... I wonder what the reasons are

It is a monster as R-33 and AIM-54 Iranians use again and normal with wings 70 cm… weapons bay do i have 90 but could to be possible internaly 2 one in both
Reason possible modifications necessary from 2 to 1 HPs in each bay or ? normaly as it is a new no wiring/software problems.

And for tactical use as Su-57 is stealth better to have 4 x R-77 keep very long stick not in ghost vs no stealth fighters and AWACS
and useless have R-37 vs stealth
In addition i have more than heavy doubts a fighter even if he can detect ( and extremely few are able to this range ) can shoot down one other to 300 - 400 km ! about 200 km max seems more reasonnable


So what we have for internal weapons now :

I have… :

Main weapons bay
HPs for 700 kg max x 4 so 500 kg bombs
4,6 x 0,9 m each

AAMs :
R-77 x 4 or more ? i have always see 4
R-73 x 2

A2G/Surface :
Kh-59MK2 x 4

Bombs
KAB-500
Others ?
LGB ?
SGB ?

Isos wrote:

dino00 wrote:You can see from the post That idzleye 810 is meant to BE internal  and the wheigt is the same as R-37M

This thing is biased. They claim r-77M is 110km while they  officialy said it's something like 200km.

I was talking about the r-37M externally carried that is useless for su-57. It can be carried by su35 or mig 31 and su-57 has stealth to get closer to any target without being detected, at least for now and launch r-77M.

GarryB wrote:I rather suspect the external carriage of the missile might be because it leaves internal space for more missiles... I seem to remember a claim it could carry four R-37M missiles internally in the main weapon bays... two rows of two... but that space could be better filled with R-77s.

MiG-23MLDM?

Its acceleration was already much better than the MiG-29s, but with this much more powerful engine.... its acceleration would be eye watering...  

Labrador wrote:It is a monster as R-33 and AIM-54 Iranians use again and normal with wings 70 cm… weapons bay do i have 90 but could to be possible internaly 2 one in both
Reason possible modifications necessary from 2 to 1 HPs in each bay or ? normaly as it is a new no wiring/software problems.

And for tactical use as Su-57 is stealth better to have 4 x R-77 keep very long stick not in ghost vs no stealth fighters and AWACS
and useless have R-37 vs stealth
In addition i have more than heavy doubts a fighter even if he can detect ( and extremely few are able to this range ) can shoot down one other to 300 - 400 km ! about 200 km max seems more reasonnable

Paradoxically all indicates Su-57 can carry currently only 4 x R-77M. Potentially with folding wings there would be space for 8 but who knows. Same goes for R-37M, everything seems to be ok for internal carriage but by now this statement points in the other direction.

I guess the plane and its armament still have a long way to go. We know very little of the new missiles. And also have seen double external pylons, so it is clear many things are going on.

Literally! Laughing 3G plane with 5G engine, that would be an interesting mutant hehehe... I still personally think the F-16 is more "Russian" than the MiG-29, the project for the smaller single engine 4G MiG would have been a thing to see. But now the US is making it easy with the F-35, Russia should make use of the occasion and compete in the light fighter market.

4 x R-37Ms will always have a huge potential since you can keep your enemies away. The missile can be guided based on targeting data coming from many sources and activate its powerful seeker only in the end. It is highly unlikely that a missile with 60 kg warhead coming your way at Mach 6 is not going to put everyone to run.

Stealthflanker wrote:Really ? does this "R-77M" real ?  

The concept has been around for a while but so far nothing concrete..not even mock ups were made.

GarryB wrote:
The folding rear grid fins are from the outset intended for internal carriage, and the arm launcher for the missiles throws the missile downwards at launch so you could stagger the missiles like bullets in a two stack magazine...

I would suspect the idea is that when attacking something like AWACS or JSTARS, or even a troop transport aircraft it could carry R-37M externally because from 400km away its stealth is likely good enough... and then when those missiles have been launched some way of hiding the launch pylons could allow it to then operate as a stealth fighter with internal weapons only...

It could also be used to extend range if drop tanks are carried and dropped...

With the R-37Ms they could be conformally mounted on the wing like they are on the belly of the MiG-31M, so after they are launched they leave no pylon hanging down adding to the RCS...

I remember in the 1990s that they had a display that showed all new AAMs projected for the new stealth fighter that were long and slim and just white with small tail fins... a small, medium, and large missile.

Interesting idea, but it would not work because any F-16 user wanting to add a Russian engine would end up like Turkey wanting a Russian SAM system, or Venezuela... with total loss of support for spares... and grounded F-16.

It would need to be a very complete support package... replace everything... and then that would compete with MiG-29M2 sales...

Imagine a version with an IIR seeker and a datalink... you could launch it and it could activate its passive IIR sensor immediately without alerting the enemy like an ARH seeker would

As it flys along it could look for IR signatures and compare them with 3D IR signatures in its own database and if it finds one like an F-35 or B-2 or F-22 it can target it specifically. At launch using L band it could be loaded with several potential stealthy targets to engage, with a priority list... mostly AWACS and JSTARS platforms would be the highest priority, but as it flys through enemy territory... up to 400km it could pass some interesting targets it could datalink information back to the launch aircraft about....

F-22s and F-35s and B-2s would also obviously be serious targets but IIR guided R-77s could be used for those instead... they don't need a 60kg HE enema...

Hole wrote:R-77M has conventional fins.

Isos wrote:
Of course it is. R-77-1 can't fit into weapons bays. They need new missiles.

It was done to reduce drag and RCS ( dunno ). According to Vympel its Performance would be as good as that of the R-77-1.

Of course it is. R-77-1 can't fit into weapons bays. They need new missiles.

Not sure there is a clean way with a R-77 of current design to do this. But with folding wings you would not need to stagger them. The extra vertical space would be needed for a double launching pylon attached to the existing two suspension points in each bay. No idea if this is feasible due to min. clearances but it looks thinkable at least.

BTW, these "old" airframes may be of more interest than some think. VLO may well end up being discredited and with difficult economic conditions many nations could end up just needing cheap and efficient fighters with modern engines and avionics that they can buy in numbers.

Not sure though it makes sense to launch a missile like the R-37 without concrete target. But a missile with different kinematics (first stage subsonic, second stage highly supersonic) that would do the same thing may work, pretty much like a mini UCAV

I know the R-27 has IR seekers but don't know of this for the R-77...

Also a R-37 version with smaller warhead and more fuel or double seeker could be designed against stealth fighters. Bays in the Su-57 are bigger than those on F-22 or F-35 and it is an advantage that should be exploited with longer-ranged missiles than the US fighters.

This is what needed

GarryB wrote:If you have two evenly spaced with missiles on them and you put pylons between them that hang lower then you could possibly fit up to four missiles in a place you would normally only get two missiles into as long as the space is deep enough... and it needs to be quite deep anyway for the R-37 or Kh-31 type weapons to fit.

Well photonic radar, and new super powerful engine and all of a sudden you can have a really cheap widely available airframe that previously everyone was trying to get rid of so they could buy enormously expensive F-35s... if the new radars make stealth useless then an F-16 is better than an F-35... more weapon pylons, better performance in speed, range and manouver performance... and much much cheaper to operate...

Without its ARH it wont be so expensive, but certainly you would not be banging them off in just any old direction... L band radar detection where the x band sees nothing would be worth a shot...

It would definitely need IIR seekers, but in this case R-27s are probably more suitable for the job... an IIR seeker with Morfei is intended to be a short range lock on after launch IIR guided missile intended to be launched at an incoming threat from an internal weapons bay with no IIR lock before launch.

A datalink would allow the launch fighter to pick a priority target, but the missile itself should have a 3D database of IR signatures so the missile can identify a range of targets itself and prioritise... ie incoming AMRAAM would be very high on the threat list for fighters and bombers carrying the missile, but a datalink should allow overrides if necessary...

LMFS wrote:
Agree, airframe is better in many ways and costs are simply in another category. Martyanov surprised me lending ears to claims that ROFAR will be ready in few years, if that was the case then programs like F-35 would be failures of epic proportions, B-21 could still be cancelled before the big expenses are done but in general the whole USAF approach would need to be thought again. That would be massive.

Is it difficult to detect per radar an incoming AMRAAM and get it shot down with an IR-SRAAM or radar-guided MRAAM? I thought IR seekers for MRAAM missiles were rather to create a salvo for which the countermeasures are less effective, not to shoot down incoming missiles which are not so heavy on ECM. So in future I would still see this approach as correct, with two non-excluding improvement possibilities:
> Double seeker as said, increasing the cost of the single missile but reducing the cost of the salvo due to higher Pk
> Cooperative attack of the missiles comprising the salvo, with info sharing to discriminate the target even when countermeasures are used.
To shoot down incoming threats small cheap missiles are being developed in US IIRC, this would make sense for Russia too. For example, guided rockets launched angled from a container in the weapons bays could provide a big number of interceptors and form a defensive cloud difficult to pierce.

miketheterrible wrote:Actually prototypes does exist, Rostec stated so and it was said in my link (link was in new technologies thread).

http://tehnoomsk.ru/node/2522

Fighter based radar maybe not.  But ground  based for sure.

Plus. please refrain from being stupid.  Zhuk-A radar and MiG-29/35 have nothing to do with this.  We have seen N036 fly a lot more than Zhuk, got more false equivalencies there Flanker?  Why not state that it is impossible to build such a radar in Russia while they are still using T-72 tanks?