Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

They'll have escorts.

If built in Kerch they'll need a heavy UKSK armament to be able to leave the Black Sea.

Not really

They will be LHDs, not aircraft carriers

Remember that one of Mistrals was supposed to be stationed in the Black Sea

To be fair, big areas of the Asov Sea + the Kerch Strait freezes in winter, so if these new UDK don't have deep draft, they could be pressed to service & go there.
Also in some years floating ice from Dniepr builds up & freezes solid in the NW part of the Black Sea near Odessa.
Like the ASW carriers Moskva & Leningrad, that class will be transitory until bigger & better UDKs r built.

1- The small scale deployment of Russian troops in Syria cannot be replicated in the pacific. Russia will be opposed and fighting against other navies and large countries. These ships would be too small and too few to be of value.
2- In the north there is no immediate need for such large landing ships.
3- These carriers would be OK for policing missions in low intensity areas and against weak adversaries such as the middle east, Africa and South America.
4- These carriers depending on their configuration can also serve an antisubmarine role.

The most likely reason for these 2 carriers is to have a versatile platform for exercises on Kurill and building on it and expeditionary force deployment.

william.boutros wrote:1- The  small scale deployment of Russian troops in Syria cannot be replicated in the pacific. Russia will be opposed and fighting against other navies and large countries. These ships would be too small and too few to be of value.
2- In the north there is no immediate need for such large landing ships.
3- These carriers  would be OK for policing missions in low intensity areas and against weak adversaries such as the middle east, Africa and South America.
4- These carriers depending on their configuration can also serve an antisubmarine role.

The most likely reason for these 2 carriers is to have a versatile platform for exercises on Kurill and building on it and expeditionary force deployment.

I think number 4 is more or less primary reason for their design, everything else is distant second

Just look at Japan and Izumo

PapaDragon wrote: think number 4 is more or less primary reason for their design, everything else is distant second

Just look at Japan and Izumo

Should be, Izumo is double the suggest size of the Russian Carrier.

Isos wrote:

william.boutros wrote:

PapaDragon wrote: think number 4 is more or less primary reason for their design, everything else is distant second

Just look at Japan and Izumo

Should be, Izumo is double the suggest size of the Russian Carrier.

Izumo will be as good as those useless carriers carrying Harriers.

I wonder if Argentinians and Iraqis think they are useless...

william.boutros wrote:1- The  small scale deployment of Russian troops in Syria cannot be replicated in the pacific. Russia will be opposed and fighting against other navies and large countries. These ships would be too small and too few to be of value.
2- In the north there is no immediate need for such large landing ships.

Of course there are - to rapidly deploy reinforcements, coastal defence systems and air defence systems - as they've been practising doing lately. Deploy some Bastion-Ps to eastern Kamchatka, Chukotka, Sakhalin or wherever, as the situation calls for it.

And amphibious assaults will be neccessary to take back captured territory and islands.

That the Pacific Fleet is rather small and outdated compared to its possible adversaries is a different problem, that should be solved seperately - although I think that Russia's air assets here would be a powerful force multiplier.

3- These carriers  would be OK for policing missions in low intensity areas and against weak adversaries such as the middle east, Africa and South America.

From the Pacific they have reach to South America, from the Arctic Ocean they have reach to the Medittaranean and thus Africa and South America. From the Arctic moveover, they can deploy equipment to any point along the Arctic coast; it will be an element of the Arctic force that Russia is building up up there (I'm still not convinced of the force's neccessity, but since they're doing it then they might as well do it right).

The expeditionary element of going to different continents and regions is important, but most important is Russia's own defense; and from the Northern and Pacific fleets they'll be able to achieve both.

Although I would also argue that the Black Sea fleet needs a vessel of this kind; possible conflicts against Georgia and the Ukraine, and faster access to the Meditteranean. Have two in the Pacific, one in the Arctic and one in the Black Sea. If the Black Sea one is in service/repair, then the Artic one can always take up the slack for whatever developing situation in the Meditteranean and Black Sea. And a helicopter carrier landing ship in the Pacific can always take up the slack for the one in the Arctic; if that one is under service/repair or more capacity in theatre is needed.

The Baltic Sea meanwhile could use some an additional few smaller, faster, conventional landing ships.

4- These carriers depending on their configuration can also serve an antisubmarine role.

Again more useful in this regard in the Arctic and Pacific, than in the Baltic, Black Sea and Medditerranean.

Isos wrote:....Argentina could have won if they had 10 exocet more and if the germans didn't sabotaged their torpedos.

Japan could have defeated USA had they been able to destroy US Navy

But they didn't

There are no second place prizes in war, no amount of excuses changes that

Russian shipyard floats out 2 oceanographic research vessels for Defense Ministry — source

These are the Project 02670 vessel Yevgeny Gorigledzhan and the Project 22010 ship Almaz

MOSCOW, October 28. /TASS/. The Yantar Shipyard on the Baltic coast (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) has floated out two oceanographic research vessels for the Defense Ministry’s Main Directorate of the Deep-Sea Research, a source in the shipbuilding industry told TASS on Monday.

"The so-called technical launch of the vessels without a special float-out ceremony was held in the first ten-day period of October," the source said.

These are the Project 02670 vessel Yevgeny Gorigledzhan and the Project 22010 ship Almaz, the source specified.

The oceanographic research vessel Yevgeny Gorigledzhan was laid down in 2016 and is based on the Project V-92 sea tug MB-305. The vessel will "carry out underwater technical works." It will displace 4,000 tonnes, have sea endurance of 30 days and will have a crew of 32 men plus 25 expedition members.

The Almaz is the second Project 22010 vessel laid down on June 9, 2016. It displaces 5,200 tonnes.

Both oceanographic research vessels have been designed by the Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation).

Zelenodolsk Design Bureau will design universal landing ships for the Russian Navy

According to the Tatarstan business resource “BUSINESS Online” in the material of Timur Latypov “Mistral” in Zelenodolsky style: will Ivan Egorov become the main helicopter carrier? “Ak Bars” shipbuilding corporation is expected not only to build, but also to design universal landing ships ”, designing helicopter carriers - perhaps the most scandalous topic of Russian shipbuilding in recent years - will most likely be given to Zelenodolsk Design Bureau (ZPKB). This information has already made some noise in shipbuilding circles: why ZPKB, and not recognized large bureaus? The validity of the "landing" ambitions of Zelenodolsk residents was understood by BUSINESS Online.


DESIGN IN Zelenodolsk, Build in Kerch

Zelenodolsk Design Bureau (ZPKB) will design the new type of military equipment for Russia - the universal landing ship (UDK) to replace the French Mistrals that were never delivered to our Navy, BUSINESS Online sources in the military-industrial complex said. Thus, Ak Bars Shipbuilding Corporation (SKAB), a patron of ZPKB, claims not only to build helicopter carriers, but also to develop them. We invited the company’s management to clarify the issue, but the CEO Renat Mistakhov did not comment on this topic.

It should be noted that the information that slipped a month ago that UDC will build the Kerch shipyard "Bay", which is supervised by the main shipbuilding asset "Ak Bars", Zelenodolsky plant them. Gorky, too, remained unconfirmed. But no one began to refute the stuffing. “The drain was hardly accidental,” says one of our sources. “Any major event in the defense industry requires information support: you need to find out what the experts, the public will say, what the reaction of interested circles will be.”

The fact is that, as they say in the industry, if the construction of helicopter carriers is really given to the Zelenodolsk company, it will look a little strange - after all, there are more powerful and, presumably, better-trained shipbuilders, for example, in St. Petersburg. They say that the decisive factor was not so much the reputation of the plant to them. Gorky as one of the most prolific and trouble-free shipyards, how many other considerations. Firstly, competitors like the St. Petersburg Baltic Shipyard and the Admiralty Shipyards have a lot of work to do. Secondly, the Kerch Gulf has a large dry dock and other potential technical capabilities for the construction of such giants as UDC. Thirdly, it is impossible to discount the political moment - the need to develop the Crimean industry.

And against this background it turns out that the design is given to the provincial Zelenodolsk. Perplexed questions are repeated, but with an adjustment of the political moment: now it speaks about the special status of Tatarstan, the lobbying opportunities of RT President Rustam Minnikhanov and the ex-deputy defense minister who allegedly is breathing irregularly at Zelenodoltsi, and now the deputy prime minister of the Russian government, Yuri Borisov.

But what is it about these helicopter carriers that the experts considered the ZPKB not too adapted for their design?


POWER PROJECTION

UDC invented in the USA. During the Vietnam War, their Navy was faced with the problem of uncoordination of actions during the landing of naval landing. In addition, it was necessary to secure landing ships from enemy artillery. As a result, the concept of large ships was born, which landed troops and heavy equipment fifty kilometers from the coast - with the help of high-speed boats. But even earlier, for 100 km, transport helicopters take off from the board with the first wave of landing, which clears the bridgehead and ensures the reception of heavy equipment. And all this is covered by the fire of combat helicopters. In addition, the UDC is also a control ship, where a headquarters can be located that coordinates the actions of diverse forces. It is believed that such ships are ideal for conducting local wars and peacekeeping operations.

Today, Great Britain, Spain, France, Japan, South Korea and Brazil also have UDC, and the first UDC was recently built in China. Russia decided to get hold of such ships. It is widely believed that the impetus was the war with Georgia, allegedly after it the then Navy Commander-in-Chief Vladimir Vysotsky said that with the help of the UDC everything could be solved in an hour.

Since there is no own development, we decided to buy from the French a UDC of the Mistral type, which in its homeland is called the ship of "command and projection of force." In the standard version, this colossus carries 450 marines, four landing boats (or two hovercraft), which are located in the internal dock, up to 16 medium or heavy helicopters - they are on a deck in a hangar during the campaign, as well as about 60 units of armored vehicles. There is a command center on board. The defense is provided by two quick-firing gun mounts and two anti-aircraft missile systems. The main power plant was created on the basis of electric motion based on four diesel engines. Submerged electric motors are located in rotary nacelles, which provides increased maneuverability.

In 2010, the Russian Ministry of Defense signed a contract worth € 1.2 billion with the French company DCNS for the construction of two UDCs. In the Russified version of the TTX "Mistral" looked like this. Length - 199 m, width - 32 m, height - 64.3 m, draft - 6.3 m, displacement - 16.5 thousand tons. Speed ​​- 19 knots, range - 10,800 miles, autonomy - 30 days. Crew - 160 people (20 - officers). The landing force is 450 people, 8 Ka-52K attack helicopters and 8 Ka-29 transport and assault landing helicopters.

The transfer of a number of technologies was envisaged, as well as the construction of two more helicopter carriers already in Russia. In addition, the feed of the first two UDCs built the Baltic Plant in St. Petersburg. In 2012-2013, the ships were laid down, Russia began to prepare crews and equipment, but after the Crimean epic, under pressure from the USA, the contract was scandalously broken.


YOU CAN COPY THE MISTRAL, BUT ...

According to Mikhail Barabanov, scientific editor of the Export of Arms magazine, the ZPKB, like any other large design bureau developing surface ship projects, is quite capable of designing a helicopter carrier: there is no particular difficulty, and this is rather a matter of intelligibility of the requirements of the Navy. “It would be possible, without further ado, to copy the Mistral, the more so they probably received technical documentation for it,” he noted in a comment on “BUSINESS Online”. “But with us, most likely, as usual, they will go in a more complicated way.” By the way, it was said that the project could even be bought from China, which recently launched its first UDC, but our sources believe that they will not go this way - image issues will not allow, but engines that aren’t there either may to purchase in China.

Which bureaus can be called competitors Zelenodoltsy? Expert in the field of shipbuilding Vladimir Leonov, in a commentary on "BUSINESS Online", identified three companies.

First of all, this is the Nevsky Design Bureau, which, according to him, is considered the official designer of helicopter carriers. On the PKB website it is said: “The lead enterprise for the design and documentation of construction, repair, operation, conversion and modernization of the largest and most complex warships in the ocean zone - aircraft carriers and large landing ships.” Moreover, in the 1980s it developed the Soviet UDC - project 11780, but it did not take place, but there is an opinion that it can be revived. Plus, in 2015, the Nevsky Design Bureau presented the concept of the UDC of the Surf project.

But, as Leonov is sure, this bureau is not capable of pulling a helicopter carrier. He recalled that the Nevsky PKB had been working strangely for about 50 years: “In 1975, guns were installed on the Kiev-carrying cruiser Kiev, which by that time were outdated and were forbidden to be installed on new ships. In 1978, on a large landing ship "Ivan Rogov" (length - 180 meters, displacement - 15 thousand tons, which is slightly less than the "Mistral"), they forgot to place the helicopter. When developing the first newest landing ship of project 11711, Ivan Gren forgot that since 1941 demagnetizing windings have been installed on all ships in the world. The error was hastily corrected already on the ship under construction, which slowed down the construction for 26 months (the ship was somehow commissioned in 2018). Therefore, for many years there has been a question of closing the Nevsky Design Bureau and transferring its subject matter to the Northern Design Bureau. ”

Leonov calls this bureau the second applicant, but indicates that the company is overwhelmed with work on the design of an aircraft carrier and a number of other large ships, and therefore will not be able to deal with UDC.

The third candidate, Almaz Central Design Bureau, according to our interlocutor, "while with great difficulty solves the problems of designing corvettes 100 meters long, the UDC 200 meters long is too complicated for him."


WILL IT Zelenodolsk?

Given the above, the project is given to ZPKB quite “lawfully,” Leonov believes, and there is no need to look for any political and other games in this situation: “Just great officials in the Ministry of Industry and Trade and the Navy are well in charge of their duties: they have an understanding of the problems of the Nevsky PKB and real opportunities other bureaus. " In addition, the expert is confident that Russia has serious help in the work on UDC: “From the point of view of the complexity of the design technique, it is necessary to take into account that the Russian UDC is created using a French technical project, tested by time and participating in real combat conditions, and the experience of building two aft halves Mistral. So the project is created far from scratch, and the main blunders in the design arise at the very beginning of the process. Therefore, you can not worry about the ability of Zelenodolsk Design Bureau to develop a high-quality project. ”

In addition, as Leonov believes, ZPKB will work on the topic in cooperation with other bureaus. Our source adheres to the same point of view: “Zelenodoltsy are ready to design a helicopter carrier. Maybe a little design capacity is not enough, but it is solvable. Most likely, there will be a compromise: ZPKB will be appointed as the lead, and it will order a significant part of the work on the side. ”

Recall ZPKB projects (created in 1949) - one of the most replicated in the recent history of Russian shipbuilding (and more than 800 ships and ships were built according to its “drawings”). Among the new developments, one can note the four frigates of the Cheetah project for the Vietnamese Navy (Russia does not export any other large warships); three small artillery ships of project 21630 "Buyan". But the largest series - 12 units - are small missile ships of project 21631 Buyan-M. Recall that it was the three of these RTOs (Grad Sviyazhsk, Uglich, and Veliky Ustyug) and the Dagestan rocket ship (project 11661, also created at the ZPKB) that attacked the Daesh bases (the Arabic name of the ISIS group banned in the Russian Federation) "- approx. Ed.) In Syria from the Caspian Sea.

Zelenodoltsy also designed for the military an unusual tanker of project 03182 (being built in series) and proposed, one might say, a revolutionary project of the corvette for the protection of the water area. In addition, according to sources, the bureau did a brilliant job of designing a superstructure (a residential block and a wheelhouse) for the world's largest icebreakers (project 22220 LK-60Ya), comparable in size to a 9-story building.

At stake, dozens of billions

Obtaining an order for the design of helicopter carriers is undoubtedly profitable (both from an economic and an image point of view) to Tatarstan, which in November 2018 became the main owner of the ZPKB (75% minus one share; the rest is with the United Shipbuilding Corporation). Recall that an epic and met with serious resistance special operation to remove the bureau from the USC was carried out in the interests of the Ak Bars shipbuilding company, which was created with the aim of building up the position of Tatarstan in almost all ship and shipbuilding areas and which needs its own design capacities for this.

The transfer of shares was carried out in accordance with the decree of the President of Russia Vladimir Putin “On some issues of the development of the shipbuilding industry”, but the republic was set the condition - to attract investment in the modernization and development of the ZPKB, and receiving an order for helicopter carriers can certainly be considered such investments. “Tens of billions of rubles will be allocated for the design and construction of UDC,” our source notes. - It is very profitable and profitable. That’s why for the participation in the creation of the UDC today there is a serious undercover struggle. ”

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3825122.html

Source: Russian universal landing ships will be able to transport 900 marines

At the same time, another TASS interlocutor added that the displacement of the UDC will be greater than planned

MOSCOW, November 17. / TASS /. The Navy has decided on the parameters of the first Russian universal landing ships, which in 2020 are planned to be laid in the Crimea. Each ship will receive a displacement of 25 thousand tons and will be able to transport 900 marines, sources in the shipbuilding industry told TASS on Sunday

"The universal landing ship (UDC) of this project will be able to carry more than 20 heavy helicopters, will receive a docking chamber for landing boats and will be able to carry up to two reinforced battalions of marine corps with a total number of about 900 people," one of the agency’s interlocutors said.

Another source said that the displacement of the UDC will be greater than planned.

"The Navy issued a tactical and technical task for two universal landing ships, which they intend to lay in May at the Crimean Zaliv plant in May 2020. Each will have a displacement of about 25 thousand tons and a length of about 220 meters,"

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7136279

that's BIG 25k

dino00 wrote:Source: Russian universal landing ships will be able to transport 900 marines

At the same time, another TASS interlocutor added that the displacement of the UDC will be greater than planned

MOSCOW, November 17. / TASS /. The Navy has decided on the parameters of the first Russian universal landing ships, which in 2020 are planned to be laid in the Crimea. Each ship will receive a displacement of 25 thousand tons and will be able to transport 900 marines, sources in the shipbuilding industry told TASS on Sunday

"The universal landing ship (UDC) of this project will be able to carry more than 20 heavy helicopters, will receive a docking chamber for landing boats and will be able to carry up to two reinforced battalions of marine corps with a total number of about 900 people," one of the agency’s interlocutors said.

Another source said that the displacement of the UDC will be greater than planned.

"The Navy issued a tactical and technical task for two universal landing ships, which they intend to lay in May at the Crimean Zaliv plant in May 2020. Each will have a displacement of about 25 thousand tons and a length of about 220 meters,"

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7136279

that's BIG 25k

at 220 metres it will be between the French Mistral and the Chinese 075.

Zaliv is a good place for it. The three main shipyards in Saint Petersburg are loaded with orders (and severnaya verf before the end of the extension/modernisation has no possibility to build ships that large anyway) and should focus on their priorities.

Furthermore due to sanction to Crimea Zaliv cannot build civilian ships that need foreign (western) components.

I just hope they have enough capable workers.

Also crimean shipyard have no experience building anything,..

not so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalyv_Shipbuilding_yard#Building
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRxdP3UTKHg

It was reported in 2015 that Russia was designing two projects of landing ships: a helicopter-carrying dock with a displacement of 15000 tons and a universal landing ships with a displacement of 30000 tons. The former had the Dutch Rotterdam project as a likely prototype. The latter had to be bigger than the 20000-ton Mistral.
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/7479-experts-assess-crimean-prospects-for-landing-ship-construction-take-1.html
They can send experienced personnel there from elsewhere if need be.
“In the coming months but no later than the end of the year, the Defense Ministry will complete developing technical specifications for a universal amphibious assault ship and send them to the United Shipbuilding Corporation. The state armament program through 2027 includes two universal amphibious assault ships. A preliminary design has been worked out. Technical design work will begin in 2020 and the construction of the lead ship will start in 2021,” the source said, adding that the work’s chief contractors had not yet been determined.
There are plans to build the lead universal amphibious assault ship and deliver it to the customer under the state armament program through 2027 while the work on the first serial-produced vessel will be completed before the early 2030s, the source said.
“Although the technical specifications have not yet been formulated, it is possible to speak already now that universal amphibious assault ships will get a large dock chamber to house assault boats and will also be capable of carrying a large air group of helicopters of various designation, including 15-20 permanently based attack gunships,” the source said. https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2019/06/26/russia-plans-to-build-two-amphibious-assault-ships-capable-of-carrying-15-20-helicopters/

Isos wrote:

They can send experienced personnel there from elsewhere if need be.

Not really. It's not USSR where state controls everything. Russian shipyards are in competition with other russian shipyards. One won't help the other, just say "they suck, we can do the ship just give us the contract".

the Defense Ministry will complete developing technical specifications for a universal amphibious assault ship and send them to the United Shipbuilding Corporation.

MoD makes specifications. Then design bureaus needs to make many designs out of those specifications, tests them and present them to the MoD who will also analyze those design (and everything it involves), correct them and retest them... then make the decision to buy or not. That take years. The date they give for laying down the ships (2021 in your post, 2020 in the previous post) are total bullshit because we are already in 2020 and nothing seems to have started, only design bureaus's speculation and some old models taken from the soviet closet.

They can send experienced people from zelenodovsk (that controls the shipyard also in Kerch). They have however experience only with ships up to less than 4000 tons.

Other Russian shipyards can still lend personnel to act as consultant or contractors in order to train the workers in Kerch.

And no they can't say we can do the ship, because the only shipyards big enough and with experience in building large surface ships (Baltic shipyard and Admiralty shipyard) are full with orders and with the large slipways or drydocks already occupied for several years.

As for Severnaya Verf, even if they should complete the modernisation and expansion work in an acceptable time it would still be better if they concentrate in building frigates and destroyers (in addition for the civilian ship orders that they already have).

It's not USSR where state controls everything. Russian shipyards are in competition with other russian shipyards.

Most of the yards r now part of the gov. owned United Shipbuilding Corporation that can move personnel between yards as needed, even if Zaliv isn't part of it.
https://www.aoosk.ru/en/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalyv_Shipbuilding_yard#History

https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/2007-06-21russian-government-founds-united-shipb

http://russia.org.my/en/the-united-shipbuilding-corporation-the-largest-shipbuilding-company-in-russia/