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Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°76

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

Tsavo Lion Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:46 am

Korean built ships will be more costly. They now have Mistral plans & will use them to design UDKs; smaller ships/UDKs could also be ordered in PRC with which there's more trade & mil. cooperation, & they r building LHDs now: http://www.janes.com/article/79354/dsa-2018-chinese-lhd-design-contends-for-rmn-s-mrss-programme
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/chinas-new-amphibious-assault-ship-big-waste-time-19961
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_075_landing_helicopter_dock

Guest

Guest: Guest

Post n°77

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

Guest Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:47 am

Isos wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Russia could just buy several of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makassar-class_landing_platform_dock

It fits the bill, it's already on the market and Indonesians would have no issues selling them

And they cost only 45 million $ they could even buy 10 of them.

Mostly based on of the shelf, already existing parts. So price is reduced big time. I think price of first 3 was 50 million each.

Guest

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Post n°78

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

Guest Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:52 am

Tsavo Lion wrote:Korean built ships will be more costly. They now have Mistral plans & will use them to design UDKs; smaller ships/UDKs could also be ordered in PRC with which there's more trade & mil. cooperation, & they r building LHDs now: http://www.janes.com/article/79354/dsa-2018-chinese-lhd-design-contends-for-rmn-s-mrss-programme
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/chinas-new-amphibious-assault-ship-big-waste-time-19961
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_075_landing_helicopter_dock

Type 071 LPD would fit better the role we are discussing here atm.

LMFS

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Post n°79

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

LMFS Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:55 pm

Maybe buying foreign ships would help plugging holes in the navy, but how is then Russian shipbuilding expected to recover and raise their game, if they don't get important and challenging projects? Does anybody think that after the Mistral fiasco and the need to redesign dozens of pieces of HW due to the coup in Ukraine Russia is going to allow major projects to be handed to foreign countries? No way in my opinion...

Isos

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Post n°80

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

Isos Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:25 pm

LMFS wrote:Maybe buying foreign ships would help plugging holes in the navy, but how is then Russian shipbuilding expected to recover and raise their game, if they don't get important and challenging projects? Does anybody think that after the Mistral fiasco and the need to redesign dozens of pieces of HW due to the coup in Ukraine Russia is going to allow major projects to be handed to foreign countries? No way in my opinion...

During soviet times they used to build ships in all the shipyards so russian shipbuilders aren't that much experienced in big ships.

The other thing is that the last generation that build big ships is retired and new guys there haven't that experience.

Using help from south korea or china isn't bad if they do it correctly. China did that and now can do everything by itself. Russia could do it alone but it will take time and money. Better buy it specially if the price is 50 million per ship ... a small frigate or a big corvette is easily 250 million.

Landing ships don't need to be state of art only good for their job.

South korea is a better choice even if more expensive than china

PapaDragon

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Post n°81

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

PapaDragon Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:42 pm

LMFS wrote:Maybe buying foreign ships would help plugging holes in the navy, but how is then Russian shipbuilding expected to recover and raise their game, if they don't get important and challenging projects? .....

And how is Russian Navy supposed to do it's job without ships?

Russian shipyards are clearly not capable of handling important and challenging projects right now but Navy still needs to handle important and challenging tasks.

So it sucks for Russian shipbuilders but facts are facts. No prizes for second place (not that they are anywhere near second place)

kvs

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Post n°82

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

kvs Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:06 pm

So much BS speculation in this thread. I guess it escapes the critics that Russia gives submarines more priority because they
are vital to the nuclear defense of the country. Building conventional ships, including landing ships, is not a strategic priority
for Russia since it is not a colonial power like the USA. Russia does not need to project conventional power against 3rd world
countries. Only the clueless would believe that any major conflict with NATO will be conventional. Of course, NATO's leadership
thinks that it can somehow engage in conventional war on Russia, but that is utter delusion based on their desire to leverage
NATO's much larger economy, which is the main element in maintaining conventional war. In the real world, there will be no
NATO economy if it goes to war on Russia.

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°83

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

SeigSoloyvov Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:12 pm

kvs wrote:So much BS speculation in this thread. I guess it escapes the critics that Russia gives submarines more priority because they
are vital to the nuclear defense of the country. Building conventional ships, including landing ships, is not a strategic priority
for Russia since it is not a colonial power like the USA. Russia does not need to project conventional power against 3rd world
countries. Only the clueless would believe that any major conflict with NATO will be conventional. Of course, NATO's leadership
thinks that it can somehow engage in conventional war on Russia, but that is utter delusion based on their desire to leverage
NATO's much larger economy, which is the main element in maintaining conventional war. In the real world, there will be no
NATO economy if it goes to war on Russia.

Excuses excuses, defend their incompetence all you wish. If we listened to people like you, Russia would be a perfect, military machine with zero military flaws.

Guess what fanboy, every military has flaws, russia is no exception. Their problem is they allowed this shipbuilding problem to get out of hand and aren't sure how to fix it.

it's also a flat-out lie when you say they are giving subs more attention, THEY have tried to build surface ships but have failed at every turn to bet the job done fast enough.

Their history here speaks for it's self. So you can defend it with all the BS you want but in the end, again their track record talks more than you ever can.

For the record, Russia would lose in a direct fight verse all of nato. They would quickly have to rely on their nukes, you are delusional if you think Russia can 1v1 nato without relying on nuclear warheads.

Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°84

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

SeigSoloyvov Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:12 pm

Well Russia could easily simply buy like 5 of the Makassar-class have a requirement be the Indo's build them in Russian shipyards and the Ruskies be allowed to help with the process.

I mean the Makassar-class but for what it does it's okay it just carries like five choppers you don't need to be super cutting edge if thats your goal.

The problem is could they modify the design well enough to fit in the naval Ka-52's.

Still russia won't have do this and they will stay a superpower with a joke of a surface fleet for many many more years

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°85

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

SeigSoloyvov Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:16 pm

Isos wrote:

LMFS wrote:Maybe buying foreign ships would help plugging holes in the navy, but how is then Russian shipbuilding expected to recover and raise their game, if they don't get important and challenging projects? Does anybody think that after the Mistral fiasco and the need to redesign dozens of pieces of HW due to the coup in Ukraine Russia is going to allow major projects to be handed to foreign countries? No way in my opinion...

During soviet times they used to build ships in all the shipyards so russian shipbuilders aren't that much experienced in big ships.

The other thing is that the last generation that build big ships is retired and new guys there haven't that experience.

Using help from south korea or china isn't bad if they do it correctly. China did that and now can do everything by itself. Russia could do it alone but it will take time and money. Better buy it specially if the price is 50 million per ship ... a small frigate or a big corvette is easily 250 million.

Landing ships don't need to be state of art only good for their job.

South korea is a better choice even if more expensive than china

It would be a mistake to order military ships from SK.

They are in our back pocket, China would be better simply because the Chinese would laugh it off us telling them not to deliver any ships to Russia.

Guest

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Post n°86

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

Guest Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:35 pm

SeigSoloyvov wrote:
It would be a mistake to order military ships from SK.

They are in our back pocket, China would be better simply because the Chinese would laugh it off us telling them not to deliver any ships to Russia.

SK while being US ally seems not to give much shit about US foreign relations. France is another story, but in the case of SK, i dont think they would put in harms way Samsung Heavy Industires name for the benefit of some US politician.

LMFS

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Post n°87

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

LMFS Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:03 pm

Isos wrote:During soviet times they used to build ships in all the shipyards so russian shipbuilders aren't that much experienced in big ships.

The other thing is that the last generation that build big ships is retired and new guys there haven't that experience.

Using help from south korea or china isn't bad if they do it correctly. China did that and now can do everything by itself. Russia could do it alone but it will take time and money. Better buy it specially if the price is 50 million per ship ... a small frigate or a big corvette is easily 250 million.

Landing ships don't need to be state of art only good for their job.

South korea is a better choice even if more expensive than china

Not that I think that is a crazy idea, but they already tried that way with the Mistrals and guess how it resulted... is South Korea a country with more sovereignty than France? Russia learned the hard way that they are THE target, they cannot put their defence in the hands of other countries. At least for critical assets, this cannot be done, for lesser transport ships they are AFAIK already using stop-gap measures, see below.

PapaDragon wrote:
And how is Russian Navy supposed to do it's job without ships?

Russian shipyards are clearly not capable of handling important and challenging projects right now but Navy still needs to handle important and challenging tasks.

So it sucks for Russian shipbuilders but facts are facts. No prizes for second place (not that they are anywhere near second place)

Then they will need to sack people until they find someone that can do the job, there is no alternative to having functional and efficient shipbuilding capacity in the country. The same way they found a Putin after having Gorbachev and Yeltsin, they can find some shipbuilding managers that are up to the task, there are 140 millions Russians so somebody must be capable enough.

As to the number of landing-ships, as far as I know they have already:

> 1 x 11711 + 1 being built
> 14 x 775 Ropucha + 1 in overhaul
> 4 x 1171 Alligator

If that is not enough for the time being, then they can rent or buy second hand freight ships as they are doing for Syria. This is better and cheaper than buying and modifying new ships somewhere else and pretend that they are up to the task. LHDs are for power projection on the long run and hence not that urgent, nut they are combat assets and must be done in Russia. If you are just needing to transport cargo as until now you don't even need specialised landing ships.

PapaDragon

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Post n°88

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

PapaDragon Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:36 pm

LMFS wrote:

Isos wrote:........

Not that I think that is a crazy idea, but they already tried that way with the Mistrals and guess how it resulted... is South Korea a country with more sovereignty than France? ......

Mistake with France was that they paid in advance (idiotic move and exception to the rule).

Order ships from SK/Indonesia and pay upon delivery. If they deliver then no problem, if not then no problem as well.

LMFS wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:.....

Then they will need to sack people until they find someone that can do the job, there is no alternative to having functional and efficient shipbuilding capacity in the country..........

If that is not enough for the time being, then they can rent or buy second hand freight ships as they are doing for Syria. This is better and cheaper than buying and modifying new ships somewhere else and pretend that they are up to the task. LHDs are for power projection on the long run and hence not that urgent, nut they are combat assets and must be done in Russia. If you are just needing to transport cargo as until now you don't even need specialised landing ships.

Russian Navy has shortage of surface combat ships and that is what they should focus on building.

Transport ships are not priority and can easily be ordered from abroad and that's what they should do so they can focus on building corvettes and frigates.

George1

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Post n°89

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

George1 Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:36 pm

Russia’s shipbuilding program envisages universal amphibious assault ship construction

Media outlets reported earlier on Monday that Russia had decided against building helicopter carriers

MOSCOW, August 20. /TASS/. Russia’s shipbuilding program envisages the construction of universal amphibious assault ships while the construction of helicopter carriers ‘in their pure form’ is not planned, Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov told TASS on Monday.

"The construction of helicopter carriers in their pure form for the Russian Navy is not planned. Let me note that the shipbuilding program stipulates the construction of universal amphibious assault ships whose amphibious landing craft (the helicopter wing, landing boats and the amphibious armor) is planned to be accommodated inside the ship’s hull and on its deck," he said.

Media outlets reported earlier on Monday that Russia had decided against building helicopter carriers.

Universal amphibious assault ships differ from helicopter carriers by their multirole capabilities. They combine the characteristics of a helicopter carrier, a command and control ship and a large amphibious assault ship for transporting the armor and marine infantry. A universal amphibious assault ship features both a hangar for helicopters and a large-capacity amphibious dock housing landing craft, high-speed assault and tank-landing craft, amphibious vehicles, amphibious armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, tanks and the assault force.

The French Mistral universal amphibious assault ships are a classical example of such warships. Russia ordered two such warships from France in 2011 but the delivery was cancelled due to sanctions. The Mistrals that had been built were bought by Egypt.

More:
http://tass.com/defense/1017866

GunshipDemocracy

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Post n°90

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

GunshipDemocracy Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:47 pm

George1 wrote:Russia’s shipbuilding program envisages universal amphibious assault ship construction
[b]

good, the only thing left now is the VSTOL fighter to complete picture thumbsup

LMFS

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Post n°91

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

LMFS Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:00 pm

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

George1 wrote:Russia’s shipbuilding program envisages universal amphibious assault ship construction
[b]

good, the only thing left now is the VSTOL fighter to complete picture

Sure, they will buy the Turkish batch of F-35B lol1

PapaDragon

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Post n°92

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

PapaDragon Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:18 pm

George1 wrote:Russia’s shipbuilding program envisages universal amphibious assault ship construction

...Universal amphibious assault ships differ from helicopter carriers by their multirole capabilities. They combine the characteristics of a helicopter carrier, a command and control ship and a large amphibious assault ship for transporting the armor and marine infantry. A universal amphibious assault ship features both a hangar for helicopters and a large-capacity amphibious dock housing landing craft, high-speed assault and tank-landing craft, amphibious vehicles, amphibious armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, tanks and the assault force.....

So the "news" here is that they will build exactly the same type of ship that every single person out there expects them to build?

I'm shocked...

Also, if a ship has flat deck intended for operating helicopters then it's a helicopter carrier. So yeah, they are still building helicopter carrier, one with extra features but a helicopter carrier nonetheless.

Again, Russian PR at it's finest... Rolling Eyes

GunshipDemocracy wrote:......
good, the only thing left now is the VSTOL fighter to complete picture ....

Oh now you done it, take cover, fanboys incoming!!! lol1

GunshipDemocracy

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Post n°93

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

GunshipDemocracy Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:36 pm

The expert named the shipyard for the potential construction of helicopter carriers

Military expert Alexei Leonkov said that Russia has the opportunity to build warships designed to transport helicopters and aircraft that are capable of vertical takeoff and landing.

According to him, necessary for the construction of a shipyard is in Vladivostok, said " Channel Five " .

"But we need not only a platform, but a strong-willed decision, and a program. A volitional decision appears after the research work on the formation of the image of the future ship, for 30-40 years, "- said Leonkov.

https://iz.ru/779793/2018-08-20/ekspert-nazval-verf-dlia-potentcialnogo-stroitelstva-vertoletonostcev

LMFS wrote:

good, the only thing left now is the VSTOL fighter to complete picture

Sure, they will buy the Turkish batch of F-35B

meh F-35Bhas so many borrowed solutions form Yak-141 that with resumption of Yak-43 project Russia is much better off russia

PapaDragon wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:......
good, the only thing left now is the VSTOL fighter to complete picture ....

Oh now you done it, take cover, fanboys incoming!!!

and how you want to ensure that heavy air-cruisers will be properly armed? Very Happy

:D:D

dino00

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Post n°94

Source: construction of the first Russian helicopter carrier will begin in 2021

dino00 Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:44 am

Source: construction of the first Russian helicopter carrier will begin in 2021

The interlocutor of the agency noted that the head performers of works have not yet been determined

KUBINKA / Moscow Region /, June 26. / Tass /. Russia plans to build two universal amphibious assault ships (UDC), capable of carrying 15-20 helicopters each, as part of the state armament program (LG) until 2027. Their technical design will begin in 2020, and the construction of the lead ship will start in 2021, a source in the defense industry complex on the sidelines of the 2019 international military-technical forum told Tass on Wednesday.

"In the coming months, but no later than the end of the year, the Ministry of Defense will complete the formation of a tactical-technical assignment (TTZ) for the UDC and send it to the United Shipbuilding Corporation. Two UDC are included in GPV-2027, the preliminary design has been prepared, the technical design will begin in 2020, construction head ship - in 2021, "said the agency interlocutor, adding that the lead performers have not yet been determined.

According to the interlocutor, it is planned to build and deliver to the customer the head UDC in the framework of the HPV-2027, and the serial one - until the beginning of the 2030s. “Although the TTZ has not yet been formed,” the source said, “we can already say that the UDC will receive a large dock chamber to accommodate the landing craft and will also be able to carry a large aviation group of helicopters of various purposes, including impact ones, permanently based in the amount of 15-20 cars” .

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6592830

Great news if true.

George1

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Post n°95

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

George1 Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:11 pm

Russia’s first two helicopter carriers to be laid down in Crimea in spring 2020 — sources

The first helicopter carrier will be delivered to the Russian Navy by the end of 2027

MOSCOW, September 11. /TASS/. Russia’s first two amphibious assault ships will be laid down at the Zaliv shipyard in Crimea in May 2020, two sources in Russia’s shipbuilding industry told TASS on Wednesday.

"Two amphibious assault ships with water displacement of up to 15,000 tonnes will for the first time in the Russian history be laid down at the Zaliv shipyard in Kerch in 2020," the source said.

He added that the first helicopter carrier will be delivered to the Russian Navy before the current state armament program expires at the end of 2027.

The other source specified that "both ships will be laid down in May 2020."

According to him, the ships will be able to carry over 10 helicopters of various types and will be equipped with a dock-type chamber for landing craft utilities (LTU).

"The development of technical specifications of the new ships has entered the final stage. Once they are ready, in coming months, an agreement will be signed to build the helicopter carriers," he said.

TASS has been unable to officially confirm the information, provided by the sources, at the time of the publication.

The Zaliv shipyard in Kerch has facilities to build vessels up to 300 meters in length and up to 50 meters in width and, therefore, can build ships with a displacement exceeding 150,000 tonnes.

Earlier, a source in Russia’s shipbuilding industry told TASS that no later than by the end of the year, the Defense Ministry will complete developing technical specifications for a universal amphibious assault ship. There are plans to build the lead universal amphibious assault ship and deliver it to the customer under the state armament program through 2027 while the work on the first serial-produced vessel will be completed before the early 2030s, the source said.

Universal amphibious assault ships, also called helicopter carriers, are distinguished by their large displacement (20,000 tonnes and more) and can carry a large group of heavy helicopters of various designation (up to 16 helicopters aboard Mistral ships and more than 30 aboard US Wasp-class vessels), and also vertical take-off rotorcraft.

Universal amphibious assault ships can carry from several hundred to over one thousand marine infantry personnel, boats and other craft for landing the assault force and transport the armor. Universal amphibious assault ships normally feature a powerful combat control system and can act as a command and control vessel for a grouping of forces.

https://tass.com/defense/1077590

PapaDragon

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Post n°96

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

PapaDragon Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:27 pm

There are no plans to build helicopter carriers in Russia

https://ria.ru/20190911/1558560906.html

dino00

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Post n°97

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

dino00 Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:22 pm

PapaDragon wrote:
There are no plans to build helicopter carriers in Russia

https://ria.ru/20190911/1558560906.html

The Russian fleet has long been trying to get a new generation of landing ships. In early September 2019, TASS, citing industry sources, announced the construction of two universal landing ships (UDC) with a displacement of up to 15,000 tons in Kerch. Subsequently, the head of the USC Aleksey Rakhmanov denied this news, saying that the decision to build this type of ship still not accepted, nor was the place of construction chosen. Nevertheless, Izvestia sources in the Russian military department report that plans to build a new generation of landing ships at one of the largest shipyards in the former USSR, the Zaliv Kerch plant, can actually be implemented.

https://iz.ru/921311/ilia-kramnik/vtoraia-zhizn-zaliva-postroiat-li-v-kerchi-vertoletonostcy

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°98

Russian helicopter carriers: to be or not to be?

Tsavo Lion Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:07 pm

Russian helicopter carriers: to be or not to be? https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2720212.html

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3620890.html

New BDK "Vladimir Andreev" and "Vasily Trushin" received helicopters and a docking camera

Universal landing ships for Russian Navy - Page 4 11711_size_comparision_0

Universal landing ships for Russian Navy - Page 4 11711_size_comparision_0

Universal landing ships for Russian Navy - Page 4 11711_modified

https://ryb.ru/2019/09/10/1436587

New landing ships for the Russian Navy can be built on the site preserved from the USSR

George1

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Post n°99

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

George1 Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:20 pm

Helicopter carrier for Russian Navy included in state program for armaments

Earlier, sources in the shipbuilding industry told TASS the first two Russian universal amphibious ships will begin to be built at the Zaliv shipyard in Crimea in May 2020

ST. PETERSBURG, September 17. /TASS/. Russia’s state program for armaments envisages creation of a helicopter carrier for the Russian Navy, Russian Deputy Industry and Trade Minister Oleg Ryazantsev told the media on the sidelines of the Neva-2019 forum.

"Creation of a universal amphibious ship for the Navy has been included in the state program for armaments. The work on this project proceeds on time," he said.

Earlier, sources in the shipbuilding industry told TASS the first two Russian universal amphibious ships will begin to be built at the Zaliv shipyard in Crimea in May 2020. Each ship will have a displacement of up to 15,000 tonnes and carry more than 10 helicopters of different class and have a dock chamber for landing boats.

Another source in the industry earlier told TASS the lead ship is to be handed over to the military under the state program for armaments by 2027, and the other, by the beginning of 2030.

https://tass.com/defense/1078606

hoom

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Post n°100

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

hoom Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:39 am

If built in Kerch they'll need a heavy UKSK armament to be able to leave the Black Sea.

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The expert named the shipyard for the potential construction of helicopter carriers

Source: construction of the first Russian helicopter carrier will begin in 2021

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

Russia’s first two helicopter carriers to be laid down in Crimea in spring 2020 — sources

Re: Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

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Russian helicopter carriers: to be or not to be?

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Helicopter carrier for Russian Navy included in state program for armaments

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